Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OoftaMeg Oct 11, 2014 16:57:43	How to handle stealth and surprise came up in our game and I was just wondering how other people are handling it. Assuming that nobody has the Alert feat, can some creatures in a group be surprised while others are not?  Is the lone tank in a party dooming everyone in the party to never get surprise?   Let's take the scenario: Sneaky McRogue is scouting ahead in some tunnels the group is exploring and hears some orcs coming the party's way.  The group is prepared for something like this, so Sneaky signals the group using a hooded lantern pointed back at the group so the orcs have no chance to see it.  Sneaky then hides and waits in ambush.  Sneaky hides effectively, his stealth check is better than the passive perception of any of the orcs.   Back witht the main party, Tanky McTank does his best to hide but with disadvantage from his armor and a low dex he tries to hide behind a stalagmite and fails miserably.   The orcs round the corner and see Tanky.   Option 1: Sneaky still gets advantage on his first attack because he was hidden, but neither the orcs nor the PCs are surprised.  This is probably the best RAW interpretation because the orcs are aware of a threat.  However ... this means having even a single tank in the group kind of sucks for the group.   Option 2: The party is effectively split up in this scenario and act as 2 groups.  During round 1 Sneaky gets to attack, but the Orcs and Tanky are effectively surprised.  Probably not strictly RAW, but this way Sneaky has his fun and Tanky isn't penalizing the whole group.   Option 3: Sneaky goes so far ahead of the group that they can't see him.  He takes the wizard's familiar with him so he can warn the group of danger.  The orcs are spotted, Sneaky hides, the rest of the group knows to come join the battle as soon as possible.   Because the orcs can't even see Tanky, they are not aware of danger and during Round 1 they are surprised and cannot act.  Round 2, hopefully the dashing Tanky is getting close because Sneaky is heavily outnumbered.   Is option 3 really the only way Sneaky and Tanky can both have their fun?  Because I've been the tank in a group of stealthy people and Option 1 doesn't sound like much fun.   Anyway, I think I know how the rule should work, I'm curious what others think and how you've been handling it.
#2 paulstrait Oct 11, 2014 17:18:18	I think all three options are potentially valid, but more information is needed, specifically about how far apart the rogue is from the rest of the party and if the rest of the party are detectible at all.  If the rest of the party are close enough that they can give away the fact that some hostiles (from the orcs perspective) are present, then no, the orcs aren't surprised (and the rogue still has his fun by gaining advantage, no?).    Generally, if someone wants to sneak ahead to ambush, I consider the non-ambushers and the ambushees all surprised for that first round (I haven't encountered a situation yet where the ambushers signal information to the rest of the party).  Also, as a general rule, I don't roll initiative until the combat starts, and so if the first thing that happens in the combat is that the sneaky assassin fires a shot, and the rest of the party is not planning on acting until then, and the assassin surprises the enemies (and the rest of the party are too far away to be detected), then I roll initiative at that point and the assassin automatically gets to go first in round 1.  Without a houserule like that, there are some strange things that can happen, like if the surprised enemy rolls higher on iniative, they get to take reactions even though they didn't know they were in a combat.   Back to your question, I think part of the issue is whether you require stealth checks of the non-rogue.  If they are so far back that they are heavily obscured, and they are hanging back until they hear sounds of combat, then it would be reasonable to not make them roll stealth checks, just like I wouldn't make some enemy behind a 5-foot thick stone wall in a room with the door closed to roll a stealth check against the passive perception of a character that happens to be walking down the hallway (and not, say, actively listening against the door -- and if they were listening, I wouldn't set the DC based on a stealth check if the people inside weren't trying to be stealthy, but rather based on how hard I judge it would be to hear them.  Someone sitting in meditation is going to be really hard to hear, maybe DC 20, while some people talking might be DC 10, or even DC 5 if they are talking loudly).    Also, if the party is hanging far enough back, you might rule that they are detectible but that their stealth checks should be made with advantage.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 11, 2014 18:13:01	The only thing I feel like saying about this whole quetion: "Tanky" can choose to be stealthy too.
(Reply to #3) OoftaMeg	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #4) AaronOfBarbaria	OoftaMeg wrote:
#6 ankiyavon Oct 12, 2014 18:59:29	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	ankiyavon wrote:
#8 bille Oct 13, 2014 0:48:08	For me it would be a question of timing.  Until the Orcs see tanky and initiative is rolled then sneaky has the option of starting the combat himself, in which case he will have the surprise round. If he waits until the Orcs see tanky and combat is joined then he doesn't get a surprise round but he still gets the advantage of, presumably, being behind the orcs and able to pick off their back rank with his sneak attack  (the missile user, magic user etc) - I might also rule that in this case Sneaky either automatically gets to act first or can choose where he goes in the initiative order and, depending on his position, will also have the opportunity to remain hidden - all pretty powerful options. I should think that by now sneaky knows that relying on tanky to sneak about is a waste of time and will adjust his tactics accordingly. I still like sneaky's options in this scenario - plenty of chances to land the really telling blow while tanky gets to do his thing.
#9 Ansbach Oct 13, 2014 11:37:01	I'd probably go with the new and improved RAW...   Option 4: Asking for a group stealth check (PHB pg. 175), because the entire group is trying to be stealthy.  I think what you are describing is the very circumstances the group check is trying to allow for - the majority of the group makes the check and so they pass, and Tanky isn't always ruining being stealthy for everyone, every time.
#10 Sjappo71 Oct 13, 2014 11:32:40	Letting the ambusher choose his ini or having him go first is a bad idea I think. Sneaky can have his surprise round if he is indeed stealthy. After that he'll have to roll for ini just like anyone else. Getting the attacks before the enemy can react seems like an unfair mechanical advantage. Combined with a sneak attack this is huge.   initiative represents how fast one reacts to a changing situation, ie. ambushees aware of the ambuser. Being the one to surprise the other party does not mean that you can recover and attack again before the other party gets a shot off.   BTW group checks. Good catch.
(Reply to #9) Timborama	Ansbach wrote:
#12 paulstrait Oct 13, 2014 12:59:20	Sjappo71 wrote:
#13 Sjappo71 Oct 15, 2014 0:33:26	paulstrait wrote:
#14 paulstrait Oct 15, 2014 23:39:13	Sjappo71 wrote:
#15 abs1nth Oct 16, 2014 2:43:50	I think I would give sneaky a free round without advantage because tanky made the enemy prepared for potential danger. I would only use a group check if it is a special situation that could prompt cooperation such as the party preparing an ambush and hiding stationary. I wouldn't use it for normal trying to sneak up on the enemy situations.
(Reply to #14) Sjappo71	paulstrait wrote:
(Reply to #16) Redbeard2	Sjappo71 wrote:
#18 paulstrait Oct 16, 2014 7:45:08	Sjappo71 wrote:
#19 OoftaMeg Oct 16, 2014 12:49:34	There has been a similar discussion over on the rules forum which gave me some thoughts on this.   If you have Sneaky (or Sneaky and Sneaky Too) scouting ahead in many cases they could be far enough ahead that Tanky won't be noticed by anything Sneaky encounters.   When Sneaky hides and gets to act on the first round against the surprised orcs, he yells out at the top of his lungs (or communicates magically, etc), warning Tanky that he is engaging enemies.  During the first round, Tanky can move his 50 or 60 feet to get into combat by round 2.   By a strct reading of RAW, Tanky has no reason to roll initiative in round 1.  From a mechanical perspective having Tanky roll initiative simply makes it easier to know when he comes into combat in round 2.   In certain circumstances, Tanky may not hear Sneaky, but that just means that Sneaky keeps yelling for backup in round 2.   If Tanky can't be far enough behind to avoid being seen, no one is surpised in round 1 but there is still a good chance Sneaky will be hidden when he attacks so that he gets advantage.
#20 Noon Oct 17, 2014 0:23:18	1 is how it is, but since splitting the party is a valid thing to do, 2 is what you can do.   When splitting the party like this, it's probably a good idea to say how far away the rogue is from the rest of the party (and the GM can declare how far they have to be to be a split party - like a rogue five feet away is still going to have his stealth spoiled)
#21 EzechielDantan Oct 17, 2014 3:00:09	If you want Tanky in a position to ambush and attack the orcs you will have to deal with his lack of stealtiness somehow. If he remains hidden behind a wall and does nothing, or stays out of visual range of darkvision for example then I'd not roll for Tanky and he goes to acts the next round.   If Tanky is stubborn and does not do that then he is likely to ruin surprise for your side, possibly you can take measures to have Tanky cancel his disadvantage at least or give him a bonus to the roll.   I do not see a problem with that, I'd probably just wait out the first round being Tanky and then act if the environment permits, if the orc party sends out a scout this might make things harder and potentially ruin the party's ambush plan.
#22 sleypy Oct 17, 2014 6:30:00	I would rule that sneaky people would have to be far enough ahead of tanky in order to have a chance for surprise. Sneaky is going to have to decide whats more important, getting a surprise round or gathering intel for the rest of the party.