How to Calculate experience for NPC

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Athinar1

Sep 28, 2014 16:20:47

How to Calculate experience for overcoming these NPC's, 8th Level Mage or any NPC

 

Encounter 8th Mage, 6th Fighter, 6th Cleric, 5th Fighter

#2

Athinar1

Sep 28, 2014 19:44:37

So this is how I see it, per the Proficiency Bonus scale from PDF DMG Pg 4

 

~~
Challenge     Proficiency Bonus    CR of Character Level     PDF of DMG & Monster Manual
0                   +2                              1-4                                  0 Level Commoner
1/8                +2                              1-4 
1/4                +2                              1-4                                  acolyte CR1/4 - 1st-level (Prof +2)
1/2                +2                              1-4 
1                   +2                              1-4(1st) 
2                   +2                              1-4(2nd)                      Cleric Cr2 - 5th-level (Prof +3)

                                                                                          Why was a 5th level with a Prof of +3 given a CR of 2?
3                   +2                              1-4(3rd) 
4                   +2                              1-4(4th) 
5                   +3                              5-8 (5th)                       ***5th level starts at +3 Prof
6                   +3                              5-8(6th)                        Why was a 9th level given a CR 6 in the PDF DMG when it has a Prof of +4?

                                                                                            (Mage CR6 - 9th-level (Prof +4))
7                   +3                               5-8(7th) 
8                   +3                               5-8(8th) 
9                   +4                               9-12(9th)                    ***9th level starts at +4
10                 +4                               9-12(10th) 
11                 +4                               9-12(11th) 
12                 +4                               9-12(12th) 
13                 +5                               13-16(13th)               ***13th starts at +5
14                 +5                               13-16(14th) 
15                 +5                               13-16(15th) 
16                 +5                               13-16(16th) 
17                 +6                               17-20(17th)               ***17th starts at +6
18                 +6                               17-20(18th) 
19                 +6                               17-20(19th) 
20                 +6                               17-20(20th) 
21                 +7                               21-24 Epic Level, TBD 
22                 +7                               21-24 Epic Level, TBD 
23                 +7                               21-24 Epic Level, TBD 
24                 +7                               21-24 Epic Level, TBD 
25                 +8                               25-28 Epic Level, TBD 
26                 +8                               25-28 Epic Level, TBD 
27                 +8                               25-28 Epic Level, TBD 
28                 +8                               25-28 Epic Level, TBD 
29                 +9                               29-30 Epic Level, TBD 
30                 +9                               29-30 Epic Level, TBD 
   

Am I missing something; are there Negative CR adjuestments that are not listed in the PDF DMG?

.

#3

Gruff_Ironfist

Sep 28, 2014 23:25:52

Athinar1 wrote:
#4

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 5:07:33

But the Group was made up of 6-3rd level

(Reply to #3)

Athinar1

Gruff_Ironfist wrote:
#6

Timborama

Sep 29, 2014 6:46:19

Actually, the suggested CRs are for parties of 4-5 members. But remember, CR is NOT the same as a proper encounter. As some have said, CR is a guide for "You must be this tall to ride." A single CR2 Ogre may be a "hard" challenge for 5 level 1 PCs, but it's actually quite deadly, due to its huge damage potential. Instead, it has a table called, I think, an "EXP Allotment Table" or something. Giving you a way to add several less than party CR creatures to an encounter to make a proper, well, encounter! Whether it's a breeze, Challenging, or borderline deadly one...

 

For parties more than 5, the DnD Basic DMG gives ways to build a proper encounter (up to 8 PCs, I believe). It even gives ways to make a good encounter for when you have only ONE PC (say, a solo side mission, or if it's just you and your buddy playing in your basement).

 

So, again, a proper CR is NOT a proper encounter. To build a proper encounter, look at the basic DMG.

#7

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:06:00

I use the Table to build Encounters but when you don't know the CR for a NPC you can not calculate the Experience for the NPC

 

~Encounter Difficulty XP per Character, with Encounter XP Multipliers 

 

I created a Excel spread sheet that does the calculations quickly and is very useful, don't want to kill them just have fun

 

 But I'm asking for the Exp value for each of these: 8th Mage, 6th Fighter, etc...

 

8th Mage is valued for what ever it encounters be it a party of 1, level 4 Assassin on a solo mission or a party of 20 all 20th  

so to say that exp is based on a party of 4 or 5 should not matter

 

100 8th Mages vs 6 20th, Exp counter value is 1560000, Deadly if they are valued at 3900

but at 1800 exp per mage, 720000

 

Exp is is based off of CR which is based off of Proficiency Bonus and Character Level is based off of Proficiency Bonus

 

8th Mage = Prof +3 = CR 8 = 3,900 Exp

 

and every thing is based off of Proficiency Bonus   

 

so the equation of CR vs Character Levels have to match or the balance is off in favor of the CR creature (non-NPC)

 

or the Creature CR is off, too high?

#8

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 15:57:09

Athinar1 wrote:
#9

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:11:18

~~How can I be wrong when there is nothing in writing, PDF DMG has nothing

 

Dropped - ~~Drop the arrogance

 

Look at the Tables, it is right there,

 

everthing matches up

 

everything with the same CR should match up, power for power

 

CR 9 monster should equal a 9th Character (NPC)

 

Proficiency = +4 for both

 

~~Challenge Exp Proficiency Bonus CR of Character Level
0 10 +2 1-4
1/8 25 +2 1-4 
1/4 50 +2 1-4
1/2 100 +2 1-4 
1 200 +2 1-4(1st) 
2 450 +2 1-4(2nd)
3 700 +2 1-4(3rd) 
4 1,100 +2 1-4(4th) 
5 1,800 +3 5-8 (5th)
6 2,300 +3 5-8(6th)
7 2,900 +3  5-8(7th) 
8 3,900 +3  5-8(8th) 
9 5,000 +4  9-12(9th)
10 5,900 +4  9-12(10th) 
11 7,200 +4  9-12(11th) 
12 8,400 +4  9-12(12th) 
13 10,000 +5  13-16(13th)
14 11,500 +5  13-16(14th) 
15 13,000 +5  13-16(15th) 
16 15,000 +5  13-16(16th) 
17 18,000 +6  17-20(17th)
18 20,000 +6  17-20(18th) 
19 22,000 +6  17-20(19th) 
20 25,000 +6  17-20(20th) 

#10

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:08:56

~~Proficiency is based off of character level/challenge

 

which is the same thing as

 

~~character level/challenge is based off of Proficiency

 

is "="

 

character level/challenge =  Proficiency

 

Proficiency = Character level/Challenge

 

#11

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 17:13:45

Insert counter-arguement about maths and bijections that you probably won't understand.

 

Long and short of it:

They're not interchangable because more than one level/challenge has the same proficiency.

 

To get maths-y:

Proficiency=f(x) or Proficiency=f(y)

This does not (necessarily) mean f-1(Proficiency)=x, far from it. Likewise for y.

#12

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:28:17

But then are there Negative and Positive CR adjustments that can move experience past the Proficiency +X, damn, I wish this was written down someplace

 

does a High AC impact the CR, at what AC does it start to increase the CR?

High Stat for one or more abiltiy

Darkvision?

Missile Weapon

 

Do we go back to 2E/1E to get the adjustments?

 

If a 9th Mage is equal only to a CR 6 with a Proficiency Bonus of +4, then Characters (NPCs) are weaker than the Creatures with the equal Proficiency of +4

 

Than what is equation to use to determine the Experience?

 

Character Level(NPC) - 3 = CR X (Exp) 

 

Character Level(NPC) - 3 + adjustments = CR X (Exp)

 

I will house rule this one

 

1st level = 1000 Exp

10th level = 10000 Exp

20th level = 20000 Exp

 

make it up as I go, nothing is written in stone

#13

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:35:17

~~They're not interchangable because more than one level/challenge has the same proficiency

 

yes, but they have different HD, Features, to incrrease the CR Exp

 

9th has same Prof +4 as the 10th but the 10th has adjustment to the CR due to the HD and maybe more features

 

So different CR with the same Proficiency because of the adjustments

 

and the CR and Levels match the same step increase in Prof 

#14

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:38:45

This is not simple math like "Proficiency=f(x) or Proficiency=f(y)", this is Statistics and the tables don't lie

#15

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 17:45:41 		Clearly you've studied neither statistics or more "core" maths.

For the record: Proficiency=1+(X/4), rounded up. Where X is either Challenge or Character Level.
#16

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:44:57

Attacking does not answer the question but shows you are losing

#17

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 17:49:12 		It's not "attacking", it's a statement of fact. Two of the first things you're taught in Statistics: To determine independent variables, and that the tables only suggest corrolation to a certain degree of accuracy.
#18

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:54:02

so we are getting someplace, where is this written?

~~For the record: Proficiency=1+(X/4), rounded up. Where X is either Challenge or Character Level.

 

Ogre is CR 2, Prof 2 = 1 + (2/4), but it equals 1.5 and everthing is rounded down, so it is a 1.0

 

~Ogre
Large giant, chaotic evil
Armor Class 11 (hide armor)
Hit Points 59 (7d10 + 21)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 8 (−1) 16 (+3) 5 (−3) 7 (−2) 7 (−2)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 8
Languages Common, Giant
Challenge 2 (450 XP)
Actions
Greatclub. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one
target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Javelin. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. or
range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.

 

 

#19

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 17:56:43

I don't want to fight, I just need a way to calculate the Exp for NPCs

 

if you don't know just say so and stop flaming

#20

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:03:24 		A Challenge X creatures gives out Y xp when defeated. It's a constant for every creature of same challenge rating

As for where the formulae is written? It's not, it's derived from the statistics. With regards to working out the proficiency: I specifically stated you round up. Thus 1.5 rounds to 2, giving you *gasp* the right answer.
#21

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:12:04

Page 7 of the Players Handbook, Round Down

 

So you don't know the answer to NPC Exp

#22

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:12:53 		Page whatever of all the editions' rules: Specific beats genersl. Now stop trolling, you have your answer.
#23

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:19:08

Round Down is a very Specific Rule that beats all

Specific Beats General Rule is also on page 7

 

and you still don't have the answer I'm looking for

#24

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:22:28 		I'll make it very simple: Experience awarded is based off of Challenge. So a CR8 Mage gives the same Exp as a CR8 anything else (in this case 3900).
#25

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:26:31

So why does the DMG have a Level 9 Mage with CR 6 Experience?

and Cleric 5th with a CR 2?

#26

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:25:19 		It doesn't. For one the DMG isn't written yet.
#27

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:27:00

PDF DMG does

#28

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:27:45

~Priest
Medium humanoid (any race), any alignment
Armor Class 13 (chain shirt)
Hit Points 27 (5d8 + 5)
Speed 25 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
10 (+0) 10 (+0) 12 (+1) 13 (+1) 16 (+3) 13 (+1)
Skills Medicine +7, Persuasion +3, Religion +4
Senses passive Perception 13
Languages any two languages
Challenge 2 (450 XP)
Divine Eminence. As a bonus action, the priest can expend a
spell slot to cause its melee weapon attacks to magically deal
an extra 10 (3d6) radiant damage to a target on a hit. This
benefit lasts until the end of the turn. If the priest expends a
spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by
1d6 for each level above 1st.
Spellcasting. The priest is a 5th-level spellcaster. Its
spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 13, +5 to
hit with spell attacks). The priest has the following cleric
spells prepared:

#29

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:28:57

~Mage
Medium humanoid (any race), any alignment
Armor Class 12 (15 with mage armor)
Hit Points 40 (9d8)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
9 (−1) 14 (+2) 11 (+0) 17 (+3) 12 (+1) 11 (+0)
Saving Throws Int +6, Wis +4
Skills Arcana +6, History +6
Senses passive Perception 11
Languages any four languages
Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)
Spellcasting. The mage is a 9th-level spellcaster. Its
spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 14, +6 to
hit with spell attacks). The mage has the following wizard
spells prepared:

#30

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:32:07 		I fail to see where you're confused. The exp given for defeating it is clearly written out. 450xp. That's what all CR2 creatures give. Same with the Mage, it's clearly written out.
#31

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:37:47

~~Hit Points 40 (9d8)
 Players Handbook Wizard has d6's

 

that would increase the CR not decrease

 

Errors in the PDF

#32

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:33:56

and the DMG is not out yet, so the errors in the PDF can be corrected, Wizard 9th = CR 9

#33

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:34:17 		Your not even making sense now. The CR is what it tells you it is. End of discussion.
#34

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:35:11

I don't have the Monster Manual, do you?  Does it have the CR/Exp for any NPC's?

#35

Yunru

Sep 29, 2014 18:37:08 		Every. Single. NPC given stats. Has. A. CR. No exceptions.
#36

Athinar1

Sep 29, 2014 18:39:17

From the Monster Manual, any NPC's listed?

#37

Oraibi

Sep 30, 2014 0:15:13

An NPC's level doesn't determine her CR. As has been stated multiple times, an NPC who has level 9 wizard spellcasting abilities is only a CR 6 monster. Generally speaking, if a monster appears to be a level N character, it's probably about a N/2 or N/3 CR.

 

The exact rules for determining the relationship between apparent level (because NPCs don't really have levels, they just appear to) and CR have not been given yet. Hopefully they'll appear in the full DMG when it comes out.

 

(Reply to #32)

grendel111111

Athinar1 wrote:
(Reply to #32)

AaronOfBarbaria

Athinar1 wrote:
#40

Athinar1

Sep 30, 2014 3:55:49

So you can not go by the Monster Manual because it does not fit the Rules in the Players Handbook

and it is still not clear what the CR will be of NPC's made from the Rules in the Players Handbook

 

Monster Manual NPC's are quick and easy to use, don't have to make them on the fly

 

Did the person(s) who created the Players Handbook have any input with Monster Manual and Visa Versa

#41

Yunru

Sep 30, 2014 3:57:49 		What "Rules in the PHB"? The PHB doesn't have rules for NPCs.
#42

Athinar1

Sep 30, 2014 4:30:56

Rules for Character are the Rules for NPC's so the Name is Non Player "Character" and it has been that way from Chainmail, 1E, etc...

#43

Athinar1

Sep 30, 2014 4:29:40

~~Did the person(s) who created the Players Handbook have any input with Monster Manual and Visa Versa

 

The Right hand did not know what the Left hand was doing

 

The poeple who created both the MM and PHB worked for the US Government, that is why it is the way it is, broken

(Reply to #40)

AaronOfBarbaria

Athinar1 wrote:
(Reply to #42)

AaronOfBarbaria

Athinar1 wrote:
#46

Athinar1

Sep 30, 2014 5:18:36

So there are no longer NPC's, all are monsters, Old NPC's from past Modules, use D8's for HPs for Medium, reduce the CR/Exp by some number, (unknown what to use to determine the value) broken until fixed (DMG I hope has this in it)   

 

monster (NPC) Halfling Barbarians use d6 and not d12

 

did not play 4v 

#47

Timborama

Sep 30, 2014 6:31:48

Yeah...Ath is mixing up PC creation with NPC (and monster) creation. Both follow similar rules, but one involves CR which is SUPER key. Check out Surf's MM blog posts on what CR is keyed to. Hint: It's Hit dice, total HP, damage, proficiency, Spellcasting, and many other things.

 

If you're trying to calculate the CR for a PC (that either you or a player has created) that has turned NPC, that is a whole different story, and I suggest you either wait for the DMG, or read Surf's posts to see where the PC falls in line to.

 

Or...he's just a weird troll. Good luck, Ath!

#48

Athinar1

Sep 30, 2014 16:36:59 		Thanks, will check that out. Our DM says not to use the npc's in the MM, makem with the phb and use the cr=level
(Reply to #40)

Oraibi

Athinar1 wrote:
#50

Athinar1

Oct 01, 2014 4:00:07

This thread is now over

 

So the Equation for calculating NPC or PC CR is

Round Down per Players Handbook
CR = Level * 2/3

12 = 18 *2/3 (Archmage)
3 = 5 * 2/3
5 = 8 * 2/3
4 = 6 * 2/3
2 = 3 * 2/3
.5 = 1  * 2/3

there could be adjustments to CR due to High AC, etc..

 

Seen the MM at game last night, love it

 

but we are not usinng the DMG rule for NPC's, we will make them from the PHB, it is still quick to make a NPC from the PHB

 

Some times when we use NPC's in the group a new player comes in and the DM asks the new player to play the NPC, that NPC becomes the PC for that New Player

 

and a Halfling barbarian does not use d6's for HP

 

and everyone is still saying nothing about how to calculate the CR

 

Please If you don't know then don't reply, don't waste your time writing a book

#51

Yunru

Oct 01, 2014 3:49:41

Athinar1 wrote:
(Reply to #49)

Redbeard2

Oraibi wrote:
(Reply to #50)

AaronOfBarbaria

Athinar1 wrote:
#54

Athinar1

Oct 01, 2014 16:51:55

Thread is Closed, thanks all, nothing works, going back Warcraft

#55

Oraibi

Oct 02, 2014 3:54:28 		Well that was interesting.
#56

AaronOfBarbaria

Oct 02, 2014 5:18:39

I'm not sure that interesting is the word I would choose... but yeah, that was sure something.