Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 das_ich Oct 21, 2014 0:24:56	Hello , i am thinking about GMing and through playing a thief character in an open league, i found myself inventing some very nasty surprise McGuyverlike moves , which might blow your minds , although i imagine if any of you have ever played lowlevel AD&D , (random HD =low hp , instadeath at 0 , no money for resurection) such things might be just one of the things a character does .   After losing several 1stlevel characters , and liking it immensely for dark souls like difficulty, i picked up on the fact that the GM was moving the plot towards Icewind Dale , a very cold place indeed. Then playing a nonmagical thief , whose party leader and "boss" got ambushed and killed by drow with magical darkness,  i wondered how a criminal in a world full of magic would act , prepare and strategize especially when facing dangerous magical opponents. After halfheartedly burning the place down , and thus forcing the drow retreat, i began to think how thieves would act , what with all the magic that floats around d&d .   A wizard both knows and can cast all the cool stuff thieves only dream about , magic darkness , invisibility , at low levels mage hand , unseen servant and several others. Now here's the kicker , i thought to myself hey , there must be a way a thief can take over some of the traditionally magical abilities like fireball as well , right?   So i thought about what caused explosions without Gunpowder in medieval periods, and so i came up with the phenomenon of Dust Explosions . This has been known to blow up mines (Coal dust) , grain silos,(grain dust) bakery's (Flour) and sawmills IRL, and is the reason why so many factory's need airconditioning . So one character death later (had a way out , didnt take it to try and save a friend) i modded the pregen elf thief sage to have prestidigitation.   Now knowing the wikipedia article says 1kg of flour is enough for 120 m2 to blow up, causing the room to feel the effects of a small thermobaric fuel-air bomb whereby the 1st explosion is replaced by a gentle prestidigiation effect evenly spreading the flour , maybe leaving pockets away from any open fire like torches with double the flour above them , so they,ll settle... and ignite ..with the fire spreading instantaneously... and in cold settings , the living dont tend to like airconditioning  ...   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_explosion   Now knowing this and several other tricks , how the hell would i adapt my campaign i want to do in DUNGEONS &dragons, if i had me nr 2 or an even more devious bastard as a player.(which is my dream campaign really) Once i use it as a player , cat's out of the bag , and it will be copied . (I did however provide fair warning and explanation to my current GM about this so ,  that might be one way to at least have my own players provide advance warning of special maneuvers beforehand.)   And how could i prevent this from becoming an unlimited ammo cheap ultimate weapon , used in every dungeon, to kill every living thing in  it and perhaps damage every non-living thing in it (vampires beware).   -One could say most dungeon , ruin , room , is a drafty place, though little cracks wont really cut it i think, and a larger hole might reasonably cause a little implosion effect , scattering bricks / slamming the door shut, because all the air in the room gets used by the fire creating a sucking vacuum ... (one which either violently sucks out the air out of closedmouthed victims inside, causing blown lungs, or has the fire shoot into their lungs if open mouthed.) -In its aftermath it might cause a backdraft though, i wonder how fast these would develop, and how long these could last within a stone building ,(or is it indefinately self-perpetuating?)  and if there are any measures other npc's could take to solve that issue since they might get trapped on the other side    I do not want to shut down clever ideas , and i definetely want and enjoy cunning strategy and tactics to rule the day .   Though i fear if i am truly original in this , (unlikely) i just broke medieval fantasy ;)
#2 Theros Oct 21, 2014 3:57:54	Alchemist’s Fire. This sticky, adhesive fluid ignites when exposed to air. As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. Make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the alchemist's fire as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of each of its turns. A creature can end this damage by using its action to make a DC 10 Dexterity check to extinguish the flames.
#3 thehobb Oct 21, 2014 7:28:08	das_ich wrote:
#4 Timborama Oct 21, 2014 7:28:37	Any explosion you create that you can feasibly lob accurately will be small, due to the conditions needed to create such a large and/or damaging explosion. So, sadly, your elf buddy died researching that explosions are indeed explosive in large scale. But small scale it might be more of a "pop-pop, fizz-fizz" situation. But hey! 1 Fire damage and possibly setting unattended objects on fire is better than nothing! But a somewhat more reliable option that doesn't require an engineer's intelligence is a Molotov Cocktail.   For everyone else, there's alchemists' fire...
#5 thorbardin Oct 21, 2014 11:12:03	If flour was so deadly... it wouldn't be available by the kilogram in your local supermarket. #justSaying
#6 ankiyavon Oct 21, 2014 12:24:28	While your specific example doesn't work (science!), the question is still a sound one, and the answer will depend on your style of campaign.     Some people will rule whether or not it works depending on how awesome the idea is.  I am not one of them, though.   Personally, I rule based on two primary things.   1 - Is the character actually capable of knowing how to do this?  If the player has to consult wikipedia and use a calculator, the character had better have a very high Int and make some Int or skill checks.  And if the world doesn't have the background for it, it's not happening no matter what (no, I don't care that you have 20 int and rolled three natural 20's in a row, you did not just invent the Internet, Mr. Gore.)   2 - Scientific feasibility.  The flour in a dungeon, for example, would be incapable of creating anything, because you can't get the right concentration with any degree of ease.  On the other hand, if it were being set up over the course of a few days in a sealed stable, that might work (skill checks would be involved, as this is a complicated and precise task), and I would rule a level of damage based on size of explosion.     Note that normal humans, in reality and in D&D, are not very resilient to explosions.  Just because something is lethal 99% of the time in reality doesn't mean it's going to kill, or even significantly hurt, high-level threats in D&D.  I would probably give a true grain silo explosion something in the range of 5-10d6 damage; a normal human is done for, most low-level characters or monsters are dead, a dragon barely even notices.
#7 Cody_Y Oct 21, 2014 12:42:23	I, personaly, would steer clear of implementing ideas or concepts you don't know to be demonstrably accurate no matter how 'cool' they might be. So long as realism, albeit very loosely understood, is the prime consideration you won't have to worry about your game descending into goofy hijinks and cartoon situations -which for me at least break the proscenium.
#8 BRJN Oct 21, 2014 17:43:47	Having the PCs do this would get to be not-fun quickly.   HOWEVER ...   Have your BBEG do this on his way to establishing that he is (1) wicked (2) smart and (3) dangerous to be around. Everybody in town will intuitively understand that he needs to be taken down or driven out.
#9 cowleymen Oct 21, 2014 19:38:41	Flour is a terrible example of something like this. As far as I am aware, flour is only dangerous while also under pressure, like being stored in wooden barrels being packed tight. thats why you always see flour leaking out of bag in said supermarkets. though still flamable, loose flour wont ever explode, not enough power behind it when aerolized flour gets set on fire.
#10 BrianCritchley Oct 22, 2014 2:24:24	one thing to note, just because YOU know the science of this doesn't mean your CHARACTER does. a theif knowing how to mix flour specificly to create an explosion seems... unlikely.
#11 Jimmifett Oct 22, 2014 13:35:26	The problem with mundane explosives is that they typically require components that are very refined using 20th century techniques and processes. Wizards, alchemists and such would likely have the knowledge, equipment, and experience to create the refined components via distillery and chemistry. Such recipes in older times would often be closely guarded secrets.   But let's try to be creative. Say you're in the underdark, and see a fissure with a flame jutting from it. Presuming your character is smart enough, perhaps he puts out the flame and captures in an airtight container whatever -thane or -tane is being released into the air. Toss and have some sort of ignition worked out for shatter. Small explosive at best, possibly better as a flash bang. Another option is a binary compound in a shatterable container. Perhaps concentrated dragon's bile is highly combustable when in contact with and equal amount of iron oxide dust (rust, swords from eaten adventurers  ignite bile, dragon breathes flame?).   As a DM, i'd have the player justify how they know this at low levels, perhaps backstory as an apprentice to an alchemist or wizard. Then i'd require a quest to get the ingredients, of which there would be a limited supply that the player would have to find new sources of. Even making such a thing would be risky, requiring a check for x amount of throwables created, fail = boom. At the end of the day, it's end up with the stats for alchemists fire.
#12 BRJN Oct 23, 2014 19:37:18	Jimmifett wrote:
(Reply to #6) DoctorBadWolf	ankiyavon wrote:
(Reply to #11) DoctorBadWolf	Jimmifett wrote:
#15 raleel Oct 27, 2014 12:38:51	re: Flour explosions - you don't have to be that smart or that special of conditions. In fact, not being smart almost helps.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umjqeBb4MCw   however, i don't know if this applies to medieval flour. But there have been flour explosions in mills for a long time, more than 100 years have been documented. So lets assume that it's ok.    I can certainly see this being used by a clever adventurer.I actually did some research on this at one point because my campaign was low magic and I felt like it might come up (my players are clever). I didn't have an exact damage = this amount of force metric, and felt there would be some fire/force crossovers and stuff. So, rather than being super scientific, I decided that a weight would be a good measure, and figured that a d6 for a 5 pound bag of flour was a good line in the sand. Tossable, but not really super portable. Oil is more effective, as is alchemist fire, but cheap and common and not likely to attract the authorities sometimes wins. I think I also had a scaling factor in there, where a barrel did not do 30d6, more like 6-10d6. Hefting 150 pound potential fireballs didn't seem that bad if they wanted to manage the logistics. Note - this was with a beta of 5e, so alter as you see fit.
#16 ankiyavon Oct 27, 2014 12:52:27	DoctorBadWolf wrote:
#17 Jimmifett Oct 29, 2014 15:14:57	DoctorBadWolf wrote: