Despite being on this forum for over a decade, this is like the 2nd or 3rd time I have ever created a topic. I always find it odd to start topics since there always seems to be so much already being discussed.
In any case here goes nothing.
The basic issue I have is that there seems to be something missing from D&D as a whole to me. I have been trying to identify it and its kind of taken me back to looking at old books during a time when I didn't feel like that was the case. I came to the stark realization that, though perhaps I didn't notice it this has been an issue for years now. It just struck me now because 5e seems to be such a throwback to old school gaming in many respects that it reminded me of an element in D&D that no longer exists.
I'm refering to the idea that the DMG was a book (back in 1st edition AD&D) the players didn't read and that the book had variations on rules, suggestions, advice and most importantly methods and approaches for handling a wide variety of situations that the players didn't know about. The DMG got the same treatment like adventures do, if you where a player, you didn't read it, since you would be experiancing it. And even if you did, since the DMG wasn't a rulebook you really couldn't have any expectations about how things would work. More importantly however you really wouldn't ask the DM "what is the rule for making scrolls".
I'm not sure exactly what you would call the effect it had on the game, but basically what would happen is that the players would spend just as much time discovering the game world and its story as they would learning about how the world works. For example, how do I create a scroll? As a first level mage you don't know so you would be trying to figuire it out. There wasn't a "scroll creation feat" that you could take at 3rd level for example. It was sort of part of the game to try and figuire it out and as a DM you would invent a method based on your setting (so it wouldn't nescessarly be the same from campaign to campaign). Or even better through the players imagination of inventing a way he would invertantly invent it for you.
In any case, I was curious to know if anyone had a similiar experiance or (is experiancing this on any level) and if so what do you do about it? I mean is there a fix for bringing back the mystery into a modern version of D&D in which every player has his own copy of the DMG?
The DMG has always been very clear that it is just a guideline. It provides a framework for you to build your own stories on, and it really isn't there to provide all the magic and mystery. That has to come from good storytelling, and the rules are just a guide to resolve potential conflicts or situations where a success or failure needs to be determined. If you feel the magic is gone, look for inspiration from other DM's, and see if they've found the magical ingredient in their campaign settings, that might be missing from your own.
House rules, though any major changes should be run by your players before a ruling comes out, like changes to skills and other mechanics in the PHB. As for most of what youve said, a good homebrew. I think its boring that a magic sword is just a well made hunk of metal. You want to forge a flametongue? Need to the juices of fire beetle thoarx's to quench that weapon in! Want a sacred weapon cleric? Fast for a week while soaking your weapon in spring water from a sacred location, while praying for 12 hours every day, sunrise to sunset! How much cooler is that then just spending cold and well over a year!!!! Yes you need to discover the "formula," But thats what local temples, personal research (bonuses if your an Enchanter Mage!!!) Give that sense of wonder back by moding and reskinning anything that you find boring, but is mechanically sound
Gamers these days are a bit more savvy than gamers of yesteryear. There's just so much more stuff out there and exposure is easy. When I introduced by 13 year old nephew to the game recently, he already had a frame of reference to video games and movies steeped in the genre so he had insight into a lot of things that we might not have back in the day.
The easiest way for the DM to introduce a sense of exploration and discovery comes from the fictional nature of the setting. You also need to have players that buy into the process of fictional discovery of that setting you created. Not everyone is into interviewing the DM's cagey NPCs or using trial and error to figure out things about the setting. They'd rather get to the action (and I don't blame 'em).
The "mystery" is a thing which arrives as a result of play at the table - it is not a thing generated by a player having not read a particular book.
...otherwise I'd be out of luck as concerns experiencing any sense of this "mystery" as a player since the very first session I played of any table-top RPG was when I had taught myself to DM AD&D 2nd edition and wrangled my cousin into making up a character to save a princess kidnapped by an ogre.
There is nothing at all in any DMG that a regular old player truly benefits from not knowing. Same with the Monster Manual. They are not adventures which a player could ruin the fun of for themself by memorizing the location of the good treasures and the path to take for the least resistance - they are just tool boxes full of tools that might, or might not, be in hand as we work together to craft our next tale together.
To be figurative, because I like to: Peering into the MM or the DMG gives you no more insight into what the next campaign I run will entail than peering into my tool shed gives as to whether I shall next do some carpentry, and if I shall do carpentry whether I shall build a chair, a box, a dresser, a coat rack, a shelf, a table, or just one of those name plaques that people sometimes hang from the underside of their mailbox.
I agree with the other comments here and add that I think part of the "lost mystery" is also partly a reflection of changes to the game from previous editions. Crafting rules were introduced, the magic item bazaar where you could (and were expected to) buy just about any magic item, etc have all changed the "feel" of the game for anyone who's been playing.
I think they're trying to re-introduce some of that mystery with this edition but the cat is out of the bag. In addition, as others have pointed out people view games differently than they did previously and we can't go back.
I'm just happy that it feels like we have a version of the game again that doesn't get in the way of telling a story.
>>...has the mystery been lost?
This is a good question. Let me share a story with you then tie it back into your question. When I was six we went to Disneyland for the first time I remember. I was in awe. IT WAS the greatest place on earth. Then I remember going as a 16 year old and it was OK, but not great. The rides were fun and it was nice to walk around with my family, but it just was not as much fun. Then more time passed and I went with a group of 20 year olds. I was noticing things like how warn some spots were and it was not really fun. I found myself more aware of things like th ejanators walking around then of the fun. Then more time passed and I took my 5 year old to Disneyland. What happened? Oh my gosh, watching the look on her face and the sparkel in her eyes was just magic. All fo a sudden I realized I had found that magic again. Dianeylad was again the greatest place on earth.
Ok, so here is my opinion, as long time gamers, we often loose the mystery (magic) of freash discovery. The rules take on a different place in our minds. We often begin to spend a lot of time theorycrafting. We break down the game so far we kill the mystery of the game. We become more focused on the "janatorial folks" then on the "micky" in the game. How to capture that back? IMO it is to bring in new players. Whether that be kids of friends or just someone who walks into the local store with questions. Help a newbie find the mystery of the game and it will return to us as well. I just started to help my son find RPG games. He was jazzed. He picked up each mini and studied it. He asked more questions about the setting then the rules. He was excited to survive hsi first combat.
So, no it isn't just you. I believe many have felt what you are feeling. The key is not to give up, but rather help others find the mystery and magic and revive it in you.
Having played a lot of 3.5 campaigns, I wanted a bit more mystery and exploration in my latest 3.5 campaign too. So what I did, was make every island an empty template, with only important cities marked on the map. The players would still need to explore the island by foot, and I would roll randomly for what they encounter along the way. I then slowly fill in the details on the map for every mile they cover. Like so:
I do the same thing for the open seas, with random events, random seamonster movement and the movement of other ships. Players can discover undiscovered islands and other places, both above and below the waves.
More on this in the campaign topic: http://community.wizards.com/forum/homebrew-campaigns/threads/4155006
Honestly, i find this as well, but not just about D&D, but about alot of things. I find its just a byproduct of aging and the fact you have so many responsibilties. Some of my friends find this as well. YOu can never step into the same river twice.
What i did is roll with the punchs, i changed the types of campaigns i ran into different types of games than the ones i ran when i was younger. Helped a little, but D&D will never be what it was when i was a kid.
Xguild wrote:
The mystery is indeed explored.
But as a player, I'm not bored.
And I still get my thrills
off the twists, turns, and chills.
I'm satisfied in that regard.
Xguild wrote:
dafrca wrote:
Somehow I knew my age was going to come up. Certainly as 40 is rapidly approaching I do have a sense that its feasible that my extended experience in the hobby which I have been participating in since I was 10 has had some negative side effects. You would hope that having lots of experience could only prove to be a good thing, though I do sometimes roll my eyes and get that "these kids today don't know a damn thing" kind of gronardian (made up word) feeling.
My personal experience with AD&D came at a very young age, hell I just barely learned to read properly and the players handbook itself was challenge enough. I played with older kids but I distinctly remember the DM being quite adamant about his players never looking at the DMG and we never did. I think I was about 17when I inherited the DM position for the first time and that was actually the first time I read the book. I venture the comments regarding it being a thing with my personal experience rather than a game thing is probably correct, though I really do believe the experience of playing the game having never looked at the DMG was a pretty special experience that I have never had since. So there definitely was something to it, I'm certain of that.
In any case, thanks for the advice guys, that was a helpful re-alignment. I have considered for sometime now to introduce the game to my son, he just turned 10 and I'm certain has never read any of my books, but shown some curiosity about it. I think it would be pretty cool to give him the same experiance I had but I think given the era in which he is growing up that is going to be tough. As someone mentioned already the exposure to video games has given him an insight into the game before he has ever played it that I certainly didn't have back than. In any case, thanks again for the advice.
In reply to OP, you're describing a phenomenon that occurs in all walks of life. Remember your first day in a factory? "Here, newbie: turn this wrench." followed by a list of "do this, but not this"s. Over time, you started understanding your part in the factory, and the reasons behind the rules and regulations. The simplicity of a turning a wrench goes away, and instead you become a part of the machine.
Old school had a "Okay, DM: what happens next?" vibe because there were only a few books, a few rules, and sometimes the DM just winged it. All those house rules became actual rules, and people wanted to know about them. Yes, that deteriorates the mystery, but it also gives everybody an equal footing and -- in a best-case scenario -- allows for more collaborative storytelling.
I remember the days when the DMG was for the DM only, and when I would get pummeled for peeking at the Monster Manual. It was fun to hear a description and have to learn about creatures as you go... but after a while, you start learning them. Unless a DM goes outside the rules (for instance, I started giving Kobolds a breath weapon, etc) everything will tend to get stale -- unless you all work together to tell a fun story.
Xguild, as a 41 year old father of 3 myself (2 of whom play), I feel ya brother.
My kids are loving it, hands down. It's awesome to see the sparks of imagination begin, and can't wait for them to ask to DM one day!
PS - And yes, I threaten pain worse than death for any that touch a DMG or MM at my table. 
Synjin wrote:
I think part of it is our own fault as DMs. I know I've been guilty of this in the past and had to work (and am still working) to undo it.
After 20 years of DMing, I am more matter-of-fact about things than I used to be. It's not a conscious thing but it happens, and players pick up on the attitude, and it affects the whole tone of the campaign.
Recently I've been working more on projecting the sense of the unknown and the mystery, and I find that it definitely makes a difference.
Just homebrew everything! New world! New races! New deities! New equipment! New everything!
Tbh i prefer D&D now to then, it had more mystery then , but our group gave it up because the old class balance was TERRIBLE, and the rules where flatly inconsistant.
Hey fellas. I had the original Magnavox Odyssey to spur my imagination and get me ready for Basic D&D. It can't be much different today. (Joking of course, about the not being different part, not about the Odyssey part).
And I too like seeing the spark in my sons eyes when we discuss our game sessions. He just joined my campaign 5 months ago (14 years old) but he can roleplay and feel the excitement along with the others (some 20s, 30s, 40s and 50 year olds). It is great.
I often describe a good DnD campaign as like being in Disneyland. I want my players to look around in wonder at all the details. When they walk into a magic shop, I don't just tell them its a generic shop. I give them all the details, and all the funny magical stuff that is on display, much like wandering into one of the Harry Potter movies. There's not just magical scrolls and wands, but there are also weird items, like a closet with chains around it, that growls and shakes. There's a jar of wooden eyes, that seem to be alive. And a plant near the window that seems to whisper secrets. And all of it is for sale too! You create magic by being keen on the details, and make everything the players visit full of wonder.
I think that just represents an evolution in two ways:
No one honestly gets a kick out of being surprised by the rules in play. They get a kick ouf of the surprise out of the story unfolding. When mechanics are forcing people to pay attention to them, it gets in the way of the story. That a villain uses a clever gambit to escape can be appreciated. That he jumps off a 100' cliff and uses the falling damage rules to get away? Not so good.
After a while, in many groups, everyone DMs at some point. It prevents burnout, it shows some players why certain forms of behavior are obnoxious and how to appreciate a well-told story run by a good DM, and without a DM, there's no game.
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That said, I think it is good form to not to try to memorize the MM with the understanding that the DM(s) are not going to attempt to gotcha PCs due to that lack of knowledge. "Wait, you didn't realize not to look at the Medusa. Guess you're turned to stone!"
I understand what you mean, but as some have said it may be hard to capture that mystery with veteran players. In my group, only one of my players have any intention of getting the new DMG. They didn't get the MM either, but we've been playing for more than 30 years. They all know to break out the fire when a troll comes crashing in.
One thing I do as far as monsters are concerned is reskin them. An evil wizard unleashes a pair of 'Demons' that look like giant hunchbacked bullywugs that are actually trolls. My players don't know what they are facing and it takes several rounds to figure out the creatures are regenerating. I get the benefit of using a classic stock creature and my players have the fun a newbie might have when facing a troll for the first time. There is an unlimited amount of these that you can use... A malicious spirit in the shape of a great cat that hunts a lonely moor (with the stats of a ghast), a winged clockwork assassin (with the stats of a Wyvern), a tentacled horror from another star (with the stats of a Displacer beast), etc.
You can still seed clues about these creatures to reward research, just as you would for a group of new players, but the alien appearance of these things will bring a sense of wonder to your players... and they will still enjoy facing classic foes like orcs and goblins!
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Well, I just started a campaign with my 9 yr old son and his friends. I'll tell you there is wonder! They loved it all and were very happy about the game. The Keep on the Borderlands is a mysterious place. They even learned what a kobold was!
I remember when my first character, a wizard, got the fireball spell for the first time in our games. I felt he had become death personified, able to lay waste to loads of orcs with his fiery doom. I also remember first using the fireball spell against my players as a DM, half afraid they wouldn't survive such a powerfull onslaught. Nowadays, fireball is just a choice for a spellslot. The stats of the spell were in the PHB then, nothing mysterious about it. The sense of wonder didn't come from not being allowed to read a DMG or not, but from experiencing it all for the first time.
The first dragonkill was stuff of legends, or so it felt. But after killing loads of the beasts over the editions, another dragon on the horizon will never produce that same sense of dread, or of accomplishment when it was defeated that that first dragon did.
I'm sure some youngsters will pick up this edition and feel that same sense of wonder again when they get their first fireball or face their first dragon.
I'm still trying to keep that feeling of dread for dragons among my players. Part of that, is to eliminate all they think they know about dragons. I make them unpredictable and frighteningly clever foes, that don't simply abide by their color as an indicator for their alignment.