I've noticed virtually no monsters are proficient in Acrobatics or Athletics.
This makes players and NPC's *significantly* better at grappling and shoving than even the strongest monsters. If there was a grapple/shoving competition, higher level characters would be on par with the Tarrasque (slightly better in fact).
It also means that the strongest and most nimble monsters will struggle to escape from grapples (and inevitably being shoved prone) from player characters, provided they're no larger than large.
Is this intended as part of the design? Or am I missing something?
DaveDash wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
I never really followed the grappling rules threads, or examined the math for myself. Just assumed you knew what you were talking about. 
DaveDash wrote:
Grapple doesn't do much except reduce movement:
Grappled
• A grappled creature’s speed becomes 0, and it can’t benefit from any bonus to its speed.
• The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
• The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
If you grapple a large creature it will continue to attack. It is a nice tactic to keep monsters away from ranged characters if the grappler is okay with being the most likely target of the monster's attacks.
The Shove+Grapple Combo is indeed pretty sweet!
But that also means they're automatically adjacent to the dragon when their breath weapon recharges...And there are Legendary (Re)Actions to consider...
So, like most battles, the DM can give the specialist character a challenge or give them something they can completely obliterate. And other times, still, they can make them useless (or less useful) depending on the situation or monster.
iserith wrote:
I noticed this too, grappling/pinning is ridiculously easy, also the monsters are easily knocked prone by a barbarian with the shieldmaster feat or a character with expertise (or both).
I do not like it, I am thinking to either make it a strength/dex save or an athletics/acrobatics check. Possibly I will just give monsters some extra skills, those with good strength saves will likely get atheltics and those with good dx saves will likely get acrobatics.
* I am also considering rasing non-proficient saves to half of the proficiency bonus + modifier for pc and monsters/npcs
So a 20th-level bard body slams a pit fiend and gives a pink belly to a balor. It doesn't seem any sillier than the rest of this silly game we play to me.
Nobody's going to believe the bard's crazy stories anyway.
EzechielDantan wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
BW0222
A Barbarian has +11 to Grapple (most of the powerful monsters in the game, Huge Dragons, Demons, etc have +6 to +8) with advantage. I don't see where monsters get their profency bonus added to the check, because the vast majority of them are *not* proficient in athletics or acrobatics. Can you point me to the rules that indicate they should be getting their proficiency bonus added to their athletics checks? I'd love for this to be the case, truely. Also do take note, once you are grappled and prone, you *must* escape the grapple first before you can stand up. Your speed is 0.
Even worse, a Str based Rogue or Bard can get +17. Enlarge spell then opens you up to grappling some of the most powerful monsters in the game, nullifying their fly ability, and granting all melee characters in the party advantage.
Bards are the worst offenders at this. They can easily enlarge themselves, gain +17 on their checks at higher levels, gain advantage on their athletics rolls, and cause the monsters to have disadvantage on their rolls (cutting words etc). Completely shutting down higher level monsters who can fly or rely on mobility/movement as part of their CR. Even without that, perma advantage then opens that monster up for some extreme pain from the Action Surge Fighter.
I've seen this happen. My players now *love* the Grapple + Shove combo because of how effective it is at shutting down higher level monsters, where simply whacking them isn't always the best course of action. Not only that, I find the notion of double headlocking Dragons and Demons ridiculous.
The whole reason this came up is because after some high level playtesting by my group, my players realised they could easily shut down multiple monsters at once, as the monsters are poorly equipped to deal with this threat.
Glaring omission by the designers IMO. Yes I can just house rule it away, and I intend to do that.
DaveDash wrote:
As in page 195 of the PHB "The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you", so no grappling adult dragons. There might be a little bit of a disconnect when grappling a large creature such as an ogre, but hey, thats what heroic tales are made of (see: Beowulf).
Same size restriction applies to shoving as well.
If you wanted to make it tougher to grapple large monsters, I don't see a problem giving the larger creature advantage.
5Shilling wrote:
Yes, disallowing expertise on grapple checks and giving large monsters advantage seems a good Idea. In the old playtest large creaturesescaped automatically and the grappler feat still allows to hold them fast.
I would rule even more different: a large creature and even a huge creature can be grabbed, but not effectively grappled. Even if the creature can´t escape your grab, it can easily move around, at half speed (or no penalty) moving you around as if it grabbed you, effectively making you the grappled person. You however may let go anytime you want. This is how I will rule in my games.
DaveDash wrote:
Strill wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Strill you seem to be ignoring the fact that I have a huge problem with this thematically. Or do you enjoy the thought of Bards and Rogues headlocking Dragons with ease? And why is it harder to escape the grasp of a average strength Bard at higher levels that some of the strongest monsters in the game? Since when did Bards become jujitsu masters?
DaveDash wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
Strill wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Strill wrote:
How long will this enlarged duel dragon headlocking bard live with the full wrath of two dragons coming down on him and only him?
K-Ray
So, as the guy who wrote the Grapplers Guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4142801), I have a bunch of thoughts on this issue.
1. Grappling/shoving is a great way to lock down as many monsters as you have hands. In the vast majority of cases, that means two monsters at most, and it probably takes a round or two to get the second one under control. You are also stuck on those two monsters for the whole combat. Given those limitations, and the fact that you are often not even dealing a lot of damage or any at all, it's more of a balanced mechanic than it might seem.
2. You also can't grapple monsters more than one size category larger than you, which means Huge or larger. You can Enlarge/Polymorph/Shapechange/etc. yourself to get bigger, but then your grappling is dependent on a concentration spell and a DM should have no issue handling that if it's an issue. Wild Shape is a non-concentration way to get bigger, but it has its own limitations.
3. While grappled and proned, the monster can't move, has disadvantage on all attack rolls, all attack rolls within 5 feet have advantage, and all beyond that have disadvantage. It's also stuck next to the grappler. There's a TON of room for DM mechanics and strategy in those effects, and you should have no trouble exploiting any number of those conditions.
Did they just include it for the iconic grapplers? Does the owlbear have a good grapple check?
Instead of nerfing Expertise, why don't you just houserule that a particularly beefy/slinky moster is proficient with athletics/acrobatics? Seems like a simple fix that's less likely to make your players angry.
dmgorgon wrote: