Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Touc Aug 04, 2015 9:39:47	I've been DMing for 20 years now, and I still have problems telling a player s/he is not wanted at the table anymore. Anyone have some words in mind on how to best let this player go gently? (see the spoiler)  Show Three of my current players are friends to me, been with me for years, and their feelings are very important to me. They're very unhappy with our newest player who we've given several months to adapt. It's not working. Although he's our age, eager, buys food for the table, never misses a session, his bad gaming traits outweigh the good. He's a good guy, bad gamer. The other players will leave the group if he stays, so there's no choice but to let him go.   As a DM, I always give someone a chance. He hadn't played since the AD&D years, and after a messy divorce D&D is one of his major outlets for fun. "Taking D&D away" will hurt him more than others. In our area, it's not always easy to find a group willing to take in a stranger, and I'm not sure he can make D&D Expedition night.   My other players have "blown up" twice about his play style, so this isn't an issue that's going unaddressed. They state he plays his character like an arse and a coward, argues excessively when the party doesn't follow his suggestions, doesn't yield the floor to let others express opinions, often doesn't pay attention during important descriptions, and is making the game a chore to attend each week for the others. As the DM, I've seen a lot of personalities and asked them to see if he'd get better. However, he slips back after a session or two (likely unintentional, it's just how he plays) to the very flaws that upset the others. So I've put my DM credentials on the line for him and it didn't work out.   We're at the end of our mini-campaign, and he's got to go. I care for my other gamers too much. I have a strong feeling he won't take it well.
#2 akr71 Aug 04, 2015 10:29:31	It sounds to me like he hasn't taken the hint.  Does he know that he's sucking the fun out of the table for everyone?  If you worried that he won't take it well, then you should be prepared to go a little farther than normal to let him know he is ruining the game for the rest of the table.  If he doesn't see it, or is unwilling to adapt (and stop being an arse), then cut him loose.  No amount of tact will help if he can't see that he is being disruptive.
#3 shintashi Aug 04, 2015 10:49:27	run one on one sessions with him. See if you can get a new group with a different day. Everyone has a style of gaming. If you get a large enough circle of gamers, you will find that the number of people who can game with them all can be counted on one hand. I've had players that don't get along. I've had some that physically attacked each other. I've seen some scream at the top of their lungs because they found the others so annoying. I've seen DMs cheat just to piss off specific players and make their lives miserable. I've probably seen it all.   Some people want you to pay money to play games. Some people will actually demand or offer sexual favors - no, I'm not making that up. What's really sad is at the end of the day, people are still people. Some have body odor problems. Some have speech impediments. Some are shy and never speak up. Some are armchair history buffs. Many think they are right about everything, few actually are. Couples often favor each other. Some people will deliberately treat others like crap in the game just to try to split up a preexisting relationship. Some DMs expect bribes to treat the players well or run the game. Some players expect or even demand to be bribed, fed, or transported to the location. Some people will only game at their own house. Some people won't game without a specific friend, and if that friend is enemies with another player, they will refuse to go, even if they like the game and have no problem with that other person.   Some people cling fast to old editions, or reincarnations of their old characters. Some people like a particular rule enough that they assume it is true in every roleplaying game. Some people believe DM is god, and anything they say goes, even if it is blatantly cruel, dishonest, or ruining the fun of the game. Some people are so popular they can over rule other DMs and agressively take over. Some people are neutral enough to be invited to all sorts of situations. Some players will only show up at 10 pm and expect you to be coherent at 4am.  Some people will only start the game after chain smoking or heavy bong use. Some people can only operate when all sounds are isolated and a single speaker is present. Other people are unhappy with the gaming table if less than 2 people are talking, laughing, or smiling at the same time.   I don't know your situation. I've seen the worst of the worst. I have told players "Go home." I have told players "Pack your bags." I have had to deal with the police before. I have had players that were literally banned from gaming shops or conventions, or both. I have had players that waited until the rest of the group passed out, and then stole a bunch of their stuff. I have had players blatantly cheat, as recently as this week. I have had players steal food from others, as recently as last week.   My question to you, is after looking at these many kinds of players I have had in my games, is your problem player really a problem?   is there a chance your other players are just being petty or just don't like the other player? Or are they a serious bonofide problem, like something from a movie? Have you ever worried one of your other players would physically hurl them out a second story building?
#4 bawylie Aug 04, 2015 12:02:00	Based only on what's been presented to me, you have a healthy dose of fault, here.    Table management, facilitating play, is one of our bigger and more thankless duties. When you have a player that's disruptive, that hogs spotlight, that argues incessantly, it's because you've allowed it. You didn't shut it down when you ought to have, and that made it legit. The player's continuation of these undesired behaviors is as much your reaponsibility as his.    Thats not fair. But you're the DM. It would be ideal if everyone could chill and play nice. But they can't; and its on you to facilitate the game.    And oh my lawd how difficult this is! I have players who I've been with a long time. And I used to let them get away with this stuff. They'd tell other players how to play or what to say. They'd jump into scenes they weren't in. They'd eat up minutes and minutes just trying to pick that perfect spell.    So im not dumping on you here. I'm empathizing. I've had to fire a DM before. I've had to disinvite players. And then I learned to manage a table and now I don't have those problems any more.    You have a little bit of time. Run the session aggressively. Employ physical and social cues, address players directly, enforce the spotlight, and maybe you can rehabilitate this player. And maybe that's worth doing. It certainly won't do any more harm than booting him.    If you can get him properly trained up, maybe the others will be more accepting. Idk. But you've gotta say things like "Excuse me, I'm talking to Sally now," "That's john's character. He plays his & you play yours. That's it," "I've made my ruling, it's not up for debate," hold up your hand, Palm outward and, without looking at them say "I'm doing this and will return to you in a moment." Always look directly and only at the person who's turn it is.    Its a bit like shepherding really. But I've done and still do all this stuff. Especially with the kids' group and with the autistics in my disabilities group, (less with the adults' group, but still quite a bit). It really does facilitate the game.    After that, if you still have to boot the player, DM-up and do it. "I'm sorry, but we can't keep playing like this. We've discussed your behavior before and it hasn't changed. Thank you for playing with us, but we're concluding with this this session."   And don't invite him back.    Truly though, it's damn tough and you have my sympathies.
#5 shintashi Aug 04, 2015 12:52:22	I've literally had players like the bearded guy from Due Date.
#6 iserith Aug 04, 2015 12:56:59	What did the guy say when you talked to him about his bad habits?
#7 Imaculata Aug 04, 2015 14:04:37	bawylie wrote:
#8 shintashi Aug 04, 2015 14:14:31	Imaculata wrote:
#9 bawylie Aug 04, 2015 15:09:32	"Go home" isn't bad.    But if you're perma-ditching, I think you've got to be clearer. Nobody likes an ambiguous breakup.
#10 ankiyavon Aug 04, 2015 15:14:34	iserith wrote:
#11 sirkaikillah11 Aug 05, 2015 1:37:35	There is no nice way to tell someone they are not wanted. A compasionate human being would have a hard time telling anyone "You are not wanted, do not came back." It will suck, but be direct and clear. You are going to hurt the guy's feelings, be ready to deal with that and let him go. Most likely he is going to go and never come back. He'll be hurt for sure, but who wouldn't? Playing DnD with someone you dislike or worse despise will eventually lead to resentment then a blow out then hurt feelings. Your friends are already resentful, you can head off the blow out (that is a huge headache) by letting him know he can not play DnD with your group. Although thier is no nice way to tell some one they are not wanted, you can be polite. So be direct, clear and polite and hope for the best (the guy leaves peacefully).   I can be direct and honest, cruelly honest. I've kicked people out of games I've Dmed and played a Pc. It's never been fun, but I never regretted kicking someone out of a  game  I was a part, nor leaving one myself. If things got uncomfortable.
#12 sim-h Aug 05, 2015 5:58:10	Some good advice already in this thread, I'll just add my tuppence worth...   You've said the other players have 'blown up' about his behaviour, which hints to me that it may be a problem with one or more of them, just as much as the new guy.   Arguing excessively and not yielding the floor are behaviours that could at least be reduced by DM intervention from yourself - maybe give him a final chance to adapt? You should have the implicit remit (from his agreeing you are the DM) to politely shut him up so the others get a turn, and you can say things like 'I don't think you're giving a fair hearing to what x is trying to say' or 'I think y is trying to make a point to the other players, can you let him/her speak for a second please?' Doing that publicly, during the session, will reassure the other players.   The other players could also do more. If he is refusing to adopt someone else's approach then the other players just need to say - 'we've already explained why we're doing X and not Y, are you with the group or not?'   It can be difficult with a player like that but the only reason I would ever boot anyone is for unreliability and not showing up - usually that is easy to do since the player will be in agreement they can't spare the time. If the guy played AD&D he should be mature enough to take interventions such as the ones above without getting overly upset - if not, suggest that if he doesn't want to play with you as DM, he is free to leave the group. I think it's much better to turn it round on the player in question and have them make the decision and see that their behaviour is an attack on you/the group and not the other way round.   If the next session is still ruined and unsatisfactory, maybe you could point out to him that he isn't really compatible with the current group as his personality is a little too forceful for their more democratic and understated approach. You could say you'd be more than willing to DM him in another group to which he is more suited, should the opportunity arise...(I guess it won't)
#13 Avross Aug 05, 2015 6:02:08	There's also another facet which hasn't been mentioned.   Your description of the scenario only mentions that the OTHER PLAYERS have issues with his playstyle.     Have THEY said anything to the problem player, or are they expecting you to deal with it for them?   If they are all adults, then regardless of the fact that you are the DM (and probably the host?), they need to step up and take ownership of their concerns.   Our group doesn't have this type of problem, but we have our shares, and things NEVER get resolved by complaining to the DM and expecting him to fix things...they get resolved when we sit down and discuss it.     If your problem player is really a "nice guy, bad player", then he probably would be very receptive to hearing how he can adjust his playstyle so that he *and* the other players are enjoying the game. My suggestion would be to take a single game session and not play...but hash these things out.   Try not to lead that conversation, but you may need to keep it going.    Best case scenario is that there's a couple 'ah-ha' moments, and things get better.  Worst case scenario, things don't get better, but people are aware there's a problem, so if you ask someone to leave, it won't be a surprise.
#14 shintashi Aug 05, 2015 8:15:41	I've had groups where after they got rid of one problem player, they decided someone else was the problem player, and after getting rid of that person, they moved on to someone else. Eventually everyone was sitting inside their homes, talking to one other different or same person from the original group, talking smack about the other people. Sometimes everybody hates everybody. I remember a case in which you could go from one house to the next house and see the exact same people gossipping and insulting people they had just spoken about. "Oh, John is awful, can you believe what a __ he is Bob?" then they would go to John's house "Oh god Bob, John is just terrible, he never stops ___"   This is why we sometimes use expressions like "No drama". I even have an expression called "heat sink". it's the person everyone hates and complains about, but keeps coming back. Why have them around? Because in most groups, if they don't have a designated heat sink, they will just bicker amongst themselves and tear themselves apart. They will always find a picking post, down to the last man.   ...sometimes i wonder if im posting from the 9 hells and it is leaking into the Prime Material Plane.
(Reply to #4) Touc	bawylie wrote: