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| #1MJPAug 17, 2015 8:01:45 | So.... I have a party of level 20 players and these are my issues balancing encounters and the game at this level.
1.) Level 20 Wizards - Outshine every other class Tricks include: - Contingency spell - I can never down the wizard as they have a contingency spell that casts "Wall of Force" (Sphere shaped) which makes them immune to all magic (almost) whilst inside. - Shapechange - Wizard changes into a "Planetar" and does more dmg than the Barbarian, has more HP, can heal, fly etc.. etc.. It makes the other melee characters a bit redundant. - Leomund's Tiny Hut - The party can always get a full rest even inside enemy territory. - Counterspell - The wizard is a "abjuration" specialist and can "lock-down"/"dispell" any magic I throw at them. Standard tactic for my party fighting casters is just to anitmagic field or chain counter.
2.) Balancing Encounters at Level 20 Encounters at level 20 are either very very deadly or just trival at this point. Plus the amount of work I have to put in as a GM to create them is getting silly.
Either I have to throw multiple quick succession encounters at the group to drain their resources or I have to have so many bad guys on the field its just madness to control. The CR's in the MM just are too low for 5 level 20 PC's. Oh and you can't throw just one monster at the party either as they just vaporise a single "boss mob" too easily these days. Between the barb and the fighter they can do over 500 dmg in the opening round. Haste/Action Surge/Polearm attacks/Polearm Master.
Any tools or tricks to help me out would be greatly appeciated.
3.) Paladin Aura The paladin aura which makes allies immune to being frightenened and gives them +4 to all saves is broken. Most of the high CR dragons/demons/devils have a "frightful presense" ability which is just nullifieid by the Paladin. Also the Spell Save DC's on high CR monsters are too low as my party just auto pass most saves.
4.) God's Getting to the point in my campaign where the Party are definately on the God's radar and are generally being a pain for most of the evil gods. Can a God like Bane just decide to appear on the material plane with an army and just kick off? Are there stats or rules for beating on the Gods? Why don't the "Good" aligned God's just kill all off all the eveil gods?
Been playing the same campign ever since D&D 5e came out and have ran 1 x 4 hour session per week ever since. Any other GM's who have experience in running for high level characters I could do with any hints and tips you may have.
Thanks
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| #2dave2008Aug 17, 2015 9:12:17 | There is not a lot of advice for epic play specifically for 5e yet. But I find most the problems in 5e existed in 4e, but things are actually better in 5e. Thus, I would suggest you start with Miek Shea's "Running Epic Tier D&D Games", you can get it from his website: http://slyflourish.com/epic/ In addition, he has lots of good DM advice on his website, like: Here he beefs up the 5e vampire: http://slyflourish.com/unsuck_my_vampire.html , you could use similar strategies for your monsters. Mike has designed monsters and written adventures for WotC, so he has a good grasp on the system.
My simple advice, Increas monster stats. By my analysis high CR monsters don't hit hard enough: http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4159726
Increase their damage and then incerase their attack bonus and DC as need to fit your party. There is no need to be constricted by the MM. Just as the Hit Points listed in the Monster Manual are for the average monster, so are the rest of its abilities. Need a higher attack bonus, increase str and get a higher to hit bonus and a little extra damage. Monster to squishy, give it max hit points instead of the average.
The next thing is terrain and tactics, Mike as some good advice on his website and book, but the general idea is to lessen the character's effectiveness without completely shutting them down.
FYI, there are stats for Tiamat (a god) with a little tweaking she is a good test for a level 20 party. |
| #3AaronOfBarbariaAug 17, 2015 9:43:48 |
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| #4OoftaMegAug 17, 2015 10:22:48 | Before I reply I have a simple question. Are the players having fun? If yes, then everything is ok. If they don't feel challenged or if you can't set up encounters to advance your story that's an issue.
While I don't have a 20th level party yet, balancing encounters at higher levels has always been an issue. I did run a 4E party all the way through 30th, I don't think the issues you are seeing are unique to this edition.
Having said that, it sounds like your wizard (at least) is "bending" the rules.
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| #5Ralif_RedhammerAug 17, 2015 11:26:00 | Interesting breakdown. I tend not to care as much for super high level play, and end campaigns before they get to that point.
But as far as the encounter balancing goes, that sounds a whole lot like what 4e was like by the time I ended that campaign. The only advice I can give there is to be a bit of a jerk. In order to challenge the group, I stacked the combat odds against them, beyond just increasing the CR. Put a bunch of ranged opponents across a field of lava. Have meteors crash into the battlefield. Give the enemies some sort of arcano-tank construct to fight from. Have them fight a battle in a pool of acid. Or in a cave coated in brown mold. Get creative and a little mean-spirited.
I’ll agree, in 5e single bosses tend to get ganged up on and taken out quickly, unless they’re something exemplary, like a dragon or beholder.
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| #6JeggrimAug 17, 2015 11:54:43 | To add challenge to the encounters, there are many things outside the MM that can significantly alter the difficulty. 1. A ticking clock- PCs mist accomplish "X" in "Y" amount of rounds. Failure means "Y." Get the party distracted in achieving a goal beyond doing HP damage to mobs. 2. Split that party- Find creative ways to split the party up so they can't help each other as easily or at all. Perhaps the floor caves in under the feet of half the party, tumbling them into a different area, different fight. Flowing lava, walls of force, acid fog, fire, etc can all be used to split them up. 3. Conflicting interest- Add meaningful choices to combat that create a sense of conflicting interest. Does the party face down that dragon even though it means another threat will take advantage of the party's engagement to accomplish their goals? 4. Add friendlies- A group of captured townsfolk, a circle of druids, a band of good priests, ally npcs, etc. Perhaps the baddies are using them as a distraction, a meat shield, or bait. Having them mixed in with the baddies (fighting or not) should make the players hesitant of dropping certain effects or spells for risk of murdering these innocents. 5. Smarter baddies- Play them smart. Have them prepared and ready for the PCs. Surprising the PCs gives the baddies a free turn to act before the PCs do. Use advantage, clever groupings, and terrain to keep the baddies with the upper hand. 6. Assume the PCs will rule combat and stop letting it be your main form of resolution. The campaign can focus on much more than just slaying things. High level play always taxes a DM. If the players are having fun, then you're doing a good job. So keep it up. Pretty much, stop thinking about monsters making the encounter challenging. Find other avenues to burn their resources, keep them on their toes, and having fun. Cheers |
| #7JeggrimAug 17, 2015 12:13:25 | Other effects to help make fights tougher (inspiration drawn from MMO boss fights) 1. Checkerboard grid- Black squares are safe, white squares are either death or really bad (I.e. Lava, an effect such as life drain dealing 4d10 damage a round, requires a dc 20 save or be paralyzed that round, etc.) 2. Tactical effects- Drawing on the "Lair Mechanics" for inspiration. Perhaps a force/curse/spell/trap/etc binds the party together. They cannot move more than 5' away from another party member or suffer damage/exhaustion/parilization/blindness/poisoned/prone. Use whatever effect fits the encounter/fiction. Alternately, it could have the opposite effect, if the party comes within 35' of each other the above conditions can come into effect. 3. Environmental damage- Again, inspired by the lair mechanics- Poison, gas, fire, falling rocks, etc can be dealing significant amounts of damage to the party. Maybe frame it in a way that they have a chance to end the effects, but it means focusing on that objective instead of downing the baddies. 4. On hit effects- give those epic level baddies something that procs on a hit. Poisoned weapons, paralyzing claws, mighty blows that knock the target prone, etc. Add saves or not. 5. Change the scene each round- Perhaps the PCs are locked in a fight after a magical artifact was set off. They tumble through the planes as they are locked in combat. They may find themselves in the Abyss, Plane of Fire, Plane of Shadows, Feywild, etc. At the start of each round they are sucked into a new plane. Keep the party's positions and just change the map and the environmental effects. Add baddies from that plane for that round. Hope that helps inspire you. Cheers |
| #8WorBladeAug 17, 2015 15:44:34 | Counter Counterspell with arrows enchanted with fireballs. You can create the occasional challange by having the party have to go into an area where magic does not function - or functions oddly. You can run large groups of enemies in groups of five and use the mob averaging rules from the DMG to avoid having to make 20+ attack rolls in a round. Use objectives that have to be done at the same time in different rooms (to stop a ritual or save prisoners from execution). The party has to split up. Have a real Planatar show up and ask the wizard to stop impersonating them. |
| #9NevvurAug 17, 2015 20:17:30 | Retire the characters and start a new campaign.
edit: Not trying to be snarky. I find your report useful to know in the event I ever run an epic level campaign in 5e. That's unlikely to happen, but this is due to a more generalized aversion to epic level play than the difficulty in making meaningful/challenging encounters.
Nevertheless, if I were in your shoes, I would start maneuvering the PCs toward a satisfying climax and epilogue, then start anew. They might enjoy catching references to their old characters, whose deeds were recorded in the annals of history. |
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| #14Delazar78Aug 18, 2015 5:58:03 | I don't have specific suggestions, since at such high-levels every party is very different from any other party.
I did make a test session (actually two) with a party of 6 x level 20 characters, and honestly I didn't have a lot of troubles challenging them.
It was some time ago, but I remember I put them against 20 x flaming skulls and 10 x fire giants, in a cave filled with lava, with stone bridges criss-crossing it. The flaming skulls opened in groups of 5, casting fireballs (that's like 40d6 damage, 4 times), the giants tried to grapple and throw the PCs into the lava (18d10 damage as per DMG, IIRC).
Then I did something I always wanted to do, and made them fight 500 x orcs. They killed them by the scores, especially with AoE, but it felt so epic! No one died, but everyone was almost at the limit.
Then I closed with a Lich and 20 wraiths, downing one player (the paladin) with a power word kill.
The one character I had a "problem" with was the Druid, since he could turn into an elemental EVERY ROUND, meaning he "regenerated" 100 hp / round. Crazy.
I guess the first thing to realize is that you are dealing with a party of demigods, these are the pinnacle of the best of the best (of the best). Challenges will come not only from the monsters they face, but also from the environment, and from the political situation of your campaign world.
Also, I guess level 20 is a nice level to wrap up your campaign, and plan the next?
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| #15Ralif_RedhammerAug 18, 2015 7:27:10 | Good call on this. When they can’t all gang up, it definitely complicates matters. I’ve used this in one campaign with a horrifically broken PC – he ended up facing off against a monster specifically designed to counter his build, and the rest of the group had a challenging fight with the big bad and allies.
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| #16JeggrimAug 18, 2015 8:49:02 | I was thinking about this more last night and have a few more interesting solutions.... 1. Clone the party- Depending on the BBEG for the "fluff" unleash an encounter on the PCs that make them fight "evil" clones of themselves. I seem to vaguely remember seeing this in a game somewhere. Anyway, now everything they can do, you can do. Would make a very interesting encounter. 2. Enemy Illusionist- A level 20 illusionist with a ton of minions. The illusionist could constantly be changing the battlefield and making it real using the illusionists abilities. Walls, cages, bridges, difficult terrain, etc. Essentially you can keep altering the terrain, screwing up their tactics every round. 3. Terrasque- Telegraph that their power has awakened something. Drums, drums pounding in the deep....Maybe they defeat it while going out in a blaze of glory. Maybe they don't, and inc the Terraaque defeats them, it returns to its slumber after feasting on their powerful life forces. 4. Puzzles- Toss a complex puzzle into an encounter that must be solved in "X" amount of rounds during the fight. If not Bad Things Happen. You could even use the concentration mechanic for inspiration: Any damage taken interrupts something they are doing, adding a higher threat of failure. 5. Cursed- Hit the PCs with the BBEGs AoE of suck. Now they have disadvantage on every single d20 roll they make until they hunt down and secure the cure. Don't make it last forever, but can be linked to the end of an adventure/story arc. The Super BBEG they need to kill also holds the cure. This can really up the challenge of a campaign concluding fight as they would be suffering from disadvantage the whole battle. I could also see the players finding ways to gain advantage, just to cancel out the disadvantage. Hope that helps too. D&D is a game of creative solutions, and as such, looking past the monster stat blocks often offers the most interesting and fun solutions. Let us know how your next session goes. Cheers |
| #17WeezelAug 27, 2015 9:20:40 | One quick note on changing into a Planetar, it seems the damage your player is doing includes all the Planetar's equipment which I assume he doesn't actually have. Not sure if that helps at all but it might mitigate the wizard challenging the barbarian for melee damage king :D |
| #18Coredump00Aug 27, 2015 12:06:57 |
Few things, some may have been said...
Contingency: This comes *after* the trigger. So what is he using as a trigger? "When I die?" As mentioned, only spells that affect the caster.
Leomunds tiny Hut: Wut? They are voluntarily staying in the exact same spot for 8 hours...??? Dude, this should be a death sentence. 1) Stop the airflow, 2) Bury the Hut, 3) set up traps, 4) gather all nearby enemies, 5) burrow up from below, 6) Leave, 7) etc Also remember they only benefit from a long rest once every 24 hours.
Counterspell: Yes, will normally pass, but not always, and it requires reaction. So can only counterspell once per round, and can't if cast Shield first
Planetar: Has the mage evern seen a Planetar? If not, can't shapechange into one. Where is he finding a large sized greatsword? It doesn't come with the spell. It is a concentration spell, so he needs to roll on damage, and its a 9th level spell... so he can only do it 1 hour a day.
Paladin: Paladin can LoH for 100pts, how does he start with 300 hp? You say the aura is giving a +4 to all saves.... big deal. Most PCs have a really bad save bonus for 3-4 of the saving throws, getting a +4 doesn't make them good saves. That fighter probably has a 2 or 3 dex save. Even making it a +7 means he will likely fail against that dragon breath. Sure, it makes his Str save awesome, but his Cha or Wis saves still suck.
Necromancer: The anti-magic field doesn't really change that encounter much. The fighter could have done all of that on his own. All the AMF does is mean the necromancer must step back 10-15' before casting any spells. In that case, I would recommend dimension door, and then sending your undead army at that caster... who is now completely helpless... |
| #19Tempest_StormwindAug 27, 2015 13:03:12 | Everyone else has addressed the other points, but I figure I can add this.
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| #20BRJNAug 29, 2015 12:27:55 | Use distractions.
Find / make creatures that ignore various types of damage (undead don't get poisoned, for instance) or who enjoy being hit with the Wizard's favorite attack. Shambling Mounds heal when electric-zapped. Water conducts electricity. So up-buff a Shambling Mound (epic version: The Creature From the Black Lagoon) and have a clutch of blue dragon younglings dump their breath weapons into the opposite shore of the Black Lagoon when it gets too hurt.
By all means, if the PCs are messing with godly things, send a godly avatar after them. Part of the fun can be splitting up the party to defuse the religious war before it gets too far along. Try to persuade King Tyrannus that joining Bane would not be to the long-term benefit of his country or himself. Did anybody train Persuasion and Intimidate? Especially if the Avatar shows up in the Royal Castle temple and walks into the throne room for a three-way chat...
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| #21ElfcrusherAug 30, 2015 19:03:49 | I think some of the observations about about how your Wizard is abusing the rules should clear up some of the problem.
But how about this: create a party of evil level 20 NPCs to hunt them. I'm picturing a level 6 Shadow Monk, Level 14 Assassin with Mage Slayer who is going to keep teleporting to your Wizard and getting huge Sneak Attacks off every time he casts a spell.
And/or a level 20 Half-orc Berserker with a Great Axe and Great Weapon Fighting, and a level 20 Divination Wizard with some low Portent dice. Hold Person on your Wizard, use a Portent Die to make him auto-fail (then use Counterspell to cancel his Counterspell). While he's held, the Barbarian is going to do as much as 18d12 + 63 damage to him every round. (Plus the Assassin/Monk's crits at the same time.)
Round it out with an Oathbreaker Paladin. Fair is fair. |
| #22eyriekingSep 01, 2015 23:26:30 |
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