Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Steerpike65 Nov 16, 2014 0:53:46	WARNING: SPOILERS FOR LOST MINE OF PHANDELVER           I'm just running my teenage kids and their friends through Lost Mines of Phandelver. For one of the kids it's their first time playing a roleplaying game and I like to make sure that the first experience is both fun and positive. Also, it's the first time my kids have played 5e and I don't want to send out a message that this game is too tough for them - I'd like to play more 5e with them.   However, through a bit of bad luck and some bad decision-making they've got themselves into a dangerous situation in the Cragmaw Hideout. They Intimidated the lookouts instead of taking them out, who then scampered back into the cave to warn the rest of the inhabitants. The cave is now on high alert.   The wolves were sent out first, which the PCs managed to dispatch relatively unharmed through some clever thinking. We've a bit of a break until we play the next session later today and I wanted to summarise my thoughts and concerns, and garner any additional advice as this could easily end up being a TPK, which wouldn't be much fun for a first-timer.   1. I'm going to remind them they already discovered the tracks of twelve goblins leading away from the ambush site and also  learned from one of the goblins at the ambush that there is also a bugbear leader called Klarg. I will also remind them that the two lookouts escaped into the cave and state clearly that the cave must now be on high alert. 2. The inhabitants will be ready for them - they will have little to no chance of surprising any of the creatures and indeed are likely to be surprised by them. I'm thinking of giving Disadvantage to any Stealth checks by the PCs and Advantage to any of the creatures' Stealth checks to reflect this. 3. The inhabitants will be organised, working together and using all their tricks and might to defeat the PCs since the lookouts will have described them and the inhabitants know their wolves have been killed. 3. My biggest issue is if the PCs are defeated. It is implied that the goblins will eat those they defeat. If the goblins let the PCs go, they're surely intelligent enough to work out the PCs will be back for revenge and probably with more force. It just makes sense for the goblins to kill the PCs if they defeat them.   I'm struggling with a way to get round this and not leave the newcomer and the kids with a negative experience whilst at the same time keeping it 'realistic'. Any considered and constructive advice appreciated in the next two hours or so.
#2 JohnLynch Nov 16, 2014 3:46:16	If it were me I'd have a single lookout as far away as possible and wait for the goblins to leave. Sooner or later the goblins will need to eat and so the players can attack those hunters/gatherers. If they get captured have the goblins try to sell them into slavery. Goblins are lazy and so there prison shouldn't be well guarded, perfect for one of the players to fake being ill. Have the players bribe a goblin. Say they know where some treasure's buried if on,y the goblin would let them go. Goblins are lazy and greedy. Convey that to the players and let them run with it.
#3 gregsc Nov 16, 2014 5:56:15	If they get in trouble, you could knock them out instead of killing them. Now they can have a jail break adventure with Sildar along to give advice. Sildar isn't healthy enough to help them directly, so they can be heroes and get him free while still learning from him.
#4 OrwellianHaggis Nov 16, 2014 6:22:26	Point #2: avoid it like the plague! The caves are going to be difficult (and dangerous) enough without you giving advantage to the goblins when using stealth and disadvantage to the players. It's my opinion you'll TPK for sure doing this.   Point #3.1 (there are two #3's): have Klarg come out and aggressively pursue the characters. In entirely the wrong direction. That should be realistic enough (he's an angry, proud bugbear who likes wolves, and you've just killed some of his wolves) to reduce the forces in the caves by half, hopefully a manageable amount. If you're really worried about TPK, you could have less enemies come back than left (they took casualties with a caravan, but come back with extra loot).   The above advice assumes your group will be assaulting the caves rather than trying to reach a diplomatic solution.
#5 iserith Nov 16, 2014 6:34:44	Steerpike65 wrote:
#6 Neptune0923 Nov 16, 2014 11:10:48	I'm running the game PBP with two different parties that are taking things very differenty. One group is marching through the module like a hot knife through butter. The other should have been TPK'ed several times already.  There are some very dangerous tactical pitfalls. The one that I think is crazy is the escape chute for the bugbear.   The group that got in trouble got discovered, alerted the goblins that there was a threat and then tried to sneak up throught the escape chute. Meanwhile, the goblins alerted Klarg and he hid behind the rocks in his chamber, as the module directs the DM to do. So, already somewhat depleted, the PCs climb up, one-by-one, and come face-to-face Klarg and the wolf. Add the goblins hiding among the supplies with range weapons and the PC's have no chance.    So this is a very common dilemma for DM's. Here's a case where dice fudging comes into play. That's the most important message. Don't let fate and luck run your game.
#7 BRJN Nov 16, 2014 11:45:12	If the PCs insist on a frontal assault, have the goblins confront them in a big room with overwhelming force.  The goblin Boss can taunt them about how he's going to get a pretty penny for selling them to the slavers coming in this week.  He references how there are even MORE goblins coming up behind them ... any minute now ... If the PCs don't figure out that now is the time for a fighting retreat, go ahead and capture them.  They wake up chained to the walls, spread out around the room, without their gear.  They don't know (at first) that any other prisoners are nearby.  Let them talk it over, then introduce Sildar if they need advice/help.   If you introduced this as a one-off mini-campaign, the players will be more reckless than if they have a long-term investment in their characters.  They will make poor decisions - or take risks of the unknown - "to see how it works out" because they know the character will go away anyways.  Also, some people learn best under trial by fire.  Are your players such people?
#8 pukunui Nov 16, 2014 15:13:34	Something else you might want to consider is giving the PCs extra HPs. I've been letting the PCs in my game add their Con score to their starting HPs, for example.
#9 Kentus Nov 16, 2014 16:31:24	Especially new players shouldn't be spoiled too much, since the first few experience will shape their attitude about P&P a lot: If there is too much of a lifeline, they might start taking you as a DM not seriously, since you activated 'god mode' for them. Here my suggestions: 1.) Give them time outgame to strategize, even if they characters don't have it. Make sure they understand that this is a pretty serious situation and the characters can actually die quite easy in this case. 1.1.) Don't be ashamed to give some general suggestions, be it after an Intelligence or Wisdom check or directly: If you think, that fighting them openly is a bad idea, they character might think so, too. So making a retreat is not a shame. 1.2.) If they don't try to retreat, unfroze time after they formed a plan (even if they characters won't be able to formulate a plan normally under these circumstances): They're new to this, so tactical errors are bound to be happen and common sense is sometimes a hard task. 2.) If they try to retreat: Remember, that the goblins aren't that organized, since they're raiders and not an army per default. So maybe some will slack off, when following the characters or might accept a bribery (like the strong sword to show Klarg, that they killed you) if the characters are catched by a team. Goblins don't like to die. 2.1.) Means that the goblin pursuer might be split into small groups, easier to take out. 2.2.) Or maybe since no goblin want to be the one who died because he charged first, Klarg might kill some to motivate the rest. Or maybe he wants to send out the goblins in waves, overthinking the possibility that those adventures might use powerful magic to kill multiple goblins in one spell. 3.) Capturing the party might be (as already said) a profitable thing, since they might be useful for the Cragmaw (or link it to the Redbrands from chapter 2). As long as the players don't know, that there is no direct connection normally, everyone will think, that this module is well thought. The most important thing is, that the players have to work for their salvation. If someone dies, he's dead. You might fudge a roll or two secretly (every DM does that at some point, no need to be ashamed of), as long the players don' notice you cheating for them, they will face further challenges with more confidence and a tad of wisdom from bad experiences.
#10 iserith Nov 16, 2014 18:23:30	Neptune0923 wrote:
#11 THEMNGMNT Nov 16, 2014 18:55:41	Go easy on the kids. They don't understand the game enough yet to know what is or isn't "realistic" for monsters to do. So they won't figure out that you're adjusting the difficulty level to help them out. Your mission now is not to run the adventure in the most logically coherent fashion. It's to create a gamer for life. So go easy on the kids and start scaling up the difficulty when they're ready for a real challenge. Like, for example, at the end of LMOP.
#12 Steerpike65 Nov 17, 2014 0:40:26	Thanks all for the advice.   In the end the kids surprised me with some great tactical decisions and got some good rolls at important junctures. The goblins had erected a barricade at the front of the cave and populated it with archers. However, the two sneakiest PCs managed to creep right up to the barricade and used entangle followed by thunderwave, which (with lucky rolls) wiped out half of the goblins in a couple of rounds. They got hit by the traps as they were coming up the main tunnel but again rolled well to survive them (mostly) intact.   They then rescued Sildar using negotiation with Yeemik and left. The bugbear followed them out of the cave but the remaining goblins did not join him (deserters!). The PCs again got good initiative and attack rolls while the bugbear rolled badly and he ended up being defeated a bit too handily though the pet wolf got in a nasy bite and trip before being dispatched too.   In all, ended up being fun and the kids turned it around with some good tactical decisions.
#13 JohnLynch Nov 17, 2014 4:37:41	Sounds like they're becoming a great table. Their cockiness should  land them in trouble but their intelligence will let them pull a rabbit out when they need to (which will just feed into their cockiness). Reminds me of my old Pathfinder group.