Everyone,
First of all there are spoilers in this thread concerning the Lost Mines of Phandelver. If you don't want to be spoiled don't read below the dashed line:
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I am about to run the Lost Mines of Phandelver but I am very worried looking things over that the first session is a TPK just waiting to happen. For the purposes of this (mini) thread, the PCs in question are a Greatsword wielding melee fighter (varient human) in chainmail (AC 16), 18 Str, 16 Con, and the Heavy Armor Mastery feat; a woodelf Archer Fighter that got insane rolls (20 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Wis) in studded leather (AC 17) with a longbow; a stereotypical Hill Dwarf Cleric (Life Cleric, AC 16, 16s in Wis and Con); and finally a halfling (lightfoot) Rogue with an 18 Dex, 14 Wis, 14 Con in studded leather (AC 16).
I think I've got a pretty good set of both characters and players and they are experienced RPers (though three are new to DnD).
However, I am looking at the first ambush encounter. With a +6 stealth, they will get suprise on the party about 60% of the time, and with the bonus action, there is no reason why the goblins can't pop out, fire with both suprise and advantage, and finish their move by moving (popping back in) their prepared positions and using their goblin bonus action to rehide.
If so that means the party will take an average of 3x d6+2 hits before they get to act and that probably will drop a character if the attacks are focused (and why wouldn't the goblins focus fire?) Now the prepped positions are only 30' away so the party can close (and stop the goblins from hiding once this is done), but the party will still probably take another 3 hits or so before killing off the goblins.
Now the module does pretty strongly imply that the group can take a short rest here, but how useful is that really? You can get your hit-dice back, but the party has probably lose 1.5 character's worth of hit points. Let's say that burning hit-dice cuts this loss in half (so the group is down maybe 8 hit points or so).
Now the group is supposed to find and assault the goblin bandit lair. How are they supposed to do that without taking a rest? They won't be able to because a rest would be a minimum of 1hr, and this is a reasonably alert and functioning hideout. Missing troops may be missed for a few minutes no problem, but not an hour and certainly not eight! Not only that but we know the character of the leader in question and if it looks too dicey, he'll skip out (and critical information will skip out or be killed with him). Otherwise if the party camps and comes back, the goblins will be fortified and ready for an assault in which case the party would have to fight them all at once and under conditions that completely favor the goblins?
What I am missing here? I am only assuming normal tactical intelligence from experienced bandits (which goblins are). Using even that little intelligence seems to doom the group to a TPK.
How do I prevent this from happening withouit being so obviously softballing my players pick up on it (and they are a pretty canny bunch, trust me)?
-Polaris
iserith wrote:
The hide roll still has to beat the passive perception. Also the module says 2goblins charge in. But it's ok to snipe. Up to you. It really all depends on the perception roll and how the characters approach the horses. I think it also logical that the heros would recognize dead horses before just actively walking up to the ambush site. It is a tough encounter and is listed as such according to the encounter guidelines. That's why I think 2 goblins charge in to kinda negate the possible hiding, residing advantage roles.
iserith wrote:
Fantasyfilmsman wrote:
Polaris wrote:
You are also forgetting something very important: YOU ARE THE DM. Just because the module says the goblins need to be amazing little steath artists doesn't mean that one of them can't be an idiot. Or over confident. Also if you're using the pre-made characters the Wizard has had visions regarding Goblins and so should be aware...
Also we ran the module - we're not done yet - and the goblins were tough, but not as tough as the cave encounter. However, whether by DM choice or by amazing rolls we survived. So don't panic. It's a great module - and I hate modules 
iserith wrote:
GreatGameMaster wrote:
Polaris wrote:
iserith wrote:
As an introductory adventure for 1st level characters - there's nothing saying you are required to use the best tactics available to the goblins. I've played this with 3 different dms, and only 1 dm had one of the goblins hide after the first round (after we killed 2 of the goblins in one round.)
This is the very first battle in the very first module designed for first level characters with no experience. I think it's fair to go easy on them, especially if they are new to D&D. Let them have the thrill of victory. The cleric really shouldn't have to use a spell this battle (they will need them later, depending on how you run the 'floods'.)
When they get to the 'big boss' at the end of the chapter, then they might have some problems as level 1 characters (one table I played at it one hit killed our fighter w/o a critical hit - having shield of faith didn't save him. Yes, I do mean killed, not ko'd.)
shivafang wrote:
I agree Polaris that the hiding rules are a little vague but the way you run the encounter as you wish will make it a tough encounter unless the PC's succeed on the passive perception roll. Then the encounter is a cake walk. Goblins go down fast. If your players are skilled and don't mind taking damage then they can short rest it after. Once at the cave there is only really one chance for a short rest and that's after a pretty tough fight too. And you are correct Klarg is a coward. He's supposed to run if you kill his wolf. And in the ambush if two Gobos go down a gobo is supposed to run to warn the cave. I ran it and unless all the PC get iniative damage is going to get dealt on the first fight.
But out I see no problem with the way you are using the hiding mechanic for advantage if the PC fail. I do it that way too. For both monster and PC. Just never surprise after combat is iniated.
Polaris wrote:
iserith wrote:
Polaris wrote:
couple things, just ideas
players can ready actions, the stealthy can hide immediatly in brush on the sides just like the goblins, and the cleric can give the main focus fired person +2ac if they have sheild of faith. if a character moves to right beside a hidden goblin do you say he see's them or does he have to spend an action to percieve? otherwise he could just hold his action for when the goblin goes. though i suppose that relies on initiative. but if you have tactical players, and play the goblins as written and not as tactical masters the encounter should not be entirely difficult.
also PC's can fire on hiden characters, so if the goblin doesn't move, and the pc attacks the prepared hide space, and rolls to hit, which sure will be tough, they would still hit the goblin. i forget how many HP they have, but i think a hit from 1d8+2-4 could kill them in one shot semi-reliably.
was there a wizard? when my group went through this, the wizard immediatly cast sleep in such an area he caught all of them except 1 or 2, 1 of them being hte one that charges into combat. now without a wizard that of course isn;t possible, but the encounter was NOT hard for us because they were asleep we found them, and killed them, one character was able to roll perception (DM gave advantage because of snoring/not active stealthing) and see , so he walked up and sliced the goblins throats.
I've always thought of goblins as being somewhat stupid. They may be "good" at sneaking around, but they're also lazy cowards. There's nothing in their fluff that says they must be played like highly trained commandos.
I actually find the whole setup implausible, to be honest. Say what you want about the goblins' skill at ambushing, why would they leave perfectly good horse meat lying in the road for a whole day? When I ran it for my wife and some friends (all newbies), I changed it so that the goblins had dragged the horses away for food (they'll find the carcasses when they get to the "eating cave") and had instead chopped down a tree to block the road. One goblin was standing guard on the fallen tree, while the other three were hiding in the trees on either side. The halfling PC took a shot from the limit of his bow's range and killed the goblin. The other goblins snuck up through the brush to get within range, with the two melee ones rushing out to attack while the archer stayed back. The halfling got badly injured but the cleric kept him up and the greataxe-wielding human fighter took out two of them with one hit each, iirc. They knocked the last goblin out and interrogated him after he came round.
I also had the wagon being driven by an NPC named Bruce. I was going to have him get killed by a goblin arrow at the outset, but the PCs halted the wagon far enough away that it didn't seem that plausible. After the fight, they were uncomfortable with the idea of leaving the wagon on the road, so they opted to head to Phandalin and then come back. I thought this was a good move on their part as it meant that they got to experience all three pillars in the first session, whereas if they'd headed straight to the goblin lair, it would've been mainly just combat after combat.
I didn't set the goblins on high alert despite the fact that the PCs spent the night in Phandalin before heading back to the cave. As I mentioned before, the goblins are lazy and cowardly. I don't imagine they'd be all that keen on hunting down something that could wipe out a whole four-man patrol. Yeah, sure, maybe the goblins sentries outside the cave should've been paying better attention by the time the PCs came along, but maybe they got bored after a while and started playing a game instead.
There's no reason why the goblins have to be super tactically awesome.
Basically its sad that the first fight in teh starter set has to worry about the horribly unclear and confusing hiding rules of 5e. Best to just have all the goblins run in with swords and get cut down.
The problem is unseen grants adv on attacks is a massive bonus, so it ought to be very hard to get imo. For my games this means leaning out from full cover to attack auto reveals you, coz you aint got full cover no more - except in certain instances, namely where its a proper ambush and you made your stealth check and the target is unaware of you - in that first round they get adv. After that, its normal combat.
Incidentally, Mearls tweeted that he would suggest making stealth checks with disadvantage if trying to hide mid-combat, after your opponents know you are around. I quite like this idea too, as it means the peekaboo tactic generally wont work, keeping that adv bonus appropriately in check... I hope this kind of practical example guidance appears in the DMG.
Everyone,
Just got back from my first session and I was pleasently suprised. I will start a thread in the main area for the blow-by-blow, but I wanted to give everyone an after-action here.
In the first combat, things started as I was afraid they might. Although my PCs were very reasonably alert (passive perceptions from 13 to 15), the goblins as a group got 21 on their stealth and thus got the drop on the party. That said, when the party saw the dead horses from well away, they smelled a possible ambush long before the goblins could pull it off and were ready for it (weapons drawn, weaker characters hiding in the weapon providing support) ect. That forced the goblins to focus on the two fighters, and Kane (the human fighter) wound up taking only 1 net damage from two succesful attacks thanks to his Heavy Armor Mastery and 3 DR [that would prove to be a party LIFESAVER the entire session]. Unfortunately the Wood Elf Ranger (Baydon) got creamed with a critical hit, but thankfully (I roll damage) wasn't quite enough [by 2pts] to drop him outright. Yes I did give the goblins advantage on the attacks during the suprise round and yes I did have them rehide.
.....and they completely botched it!
One of the goblins did really well (Stealth 26) but the others all had stealths of 13 or lower. That made them easy pickings for the party. One shot from Baydon, a "lucky" roll from the halfling thief Tama throwing at disadvantage [rolled a 1 that turned into an 18], and finally a charging ticked off Kane later, and the Goblins were goblin food. What really helped was that Baydon on his first turn immediately (and wisely) used his second wind as a bonus action right after dropping a goblin with his arrows (and with +9 to hit...yes he was the insanely lucky PC that started with a 20 Dex, and +5 damage, he drops goblins on everything but a '1' with his longbow].
I don't want to go to much further into it [I will in the main area], but the only other place that really got dicey was when a botched stealth roll forced the party to face rooms 7 and 8 simulataneously [actually I ruled a 2 round delay for Klarg and minions to respond but respond they did]. I dropped two party members, but the Flint Fireman, Cleric of Berronar Truesilver was able to keep the party functioning with judicious uses of healing word. The party barely won...and Tama the halfling thief threw the final dagger that ended KIarg's reign as Goblin King....but it was a VERY near thing. Kane, very nearly died and would have had I used the listed average damages instead of rolling.
All that said, I can't emphasize enough how much early DR from heavy armor mastery made a HUGE difference. I estimate that Kane probably absorbed about 30 hit points altogether which is a big deal.
-Polaris
sounds like fun, did you have fun brotha?
silentdante wrote:
Polaris wrote:
In reading over the thread I think part of the problem might be visualzation. Polaris is right about blinds and sniper setups. However, in those situations the person is generally firing through the cover, not getting up and firing over it. I pictured the cover in the scene more like scrub bush about 3 feet high. So, the goblins would have to actually stand up and fire over. From that angle, anything much higher, and the goblins wouldn't be able to fire over it. So, for me surprise seems more than enough. The only way I would have granted advantage as well is if the goblins managed to ambush them from behind. Say, the goblins waited until the party finished examining the horses and then continued on their way. Just my two cents.
Even without advantage it can be deadly depending on the dice. Half the party went down when I ran it. Granted, we just used the basic rules and pre-gens, so no crazy 20 dex or DR 3. BTW, is that really a feat someone can take at first level? Seems awfully strong.
If you are a human taking the 'bonus feat' varian and you already have proficiency in Heavy Armour (Paladin, Fighter or some Clerics) then yes, you can have it at level 1. Many of the feats are flat out OP in the hands of a level 1 human (but then they become less OP over time)
hallows1999 wrote:
well if the goblins are stealthed, then pop up out of cover to fire, they do not lose stealth until the shot is away, which means they should get advantage, while strong, it's survivable, and like Polaris said, he must re-roll for stealth, and the higher passive scores beat some of the new roles so the gobo's never hid from the PC's again.
i agree if you dont have a wizard, the encounter can be tough, or any other class that can handle multiple opponents without needing to see them.
the wizard has sleep, that has no save, also burning hands will hit things you can't see if your standing in the area it attacks. also thunderwave, though both those the wizard would have ot be pretty close. the characters can use the cart for cover, and if the PC with 20 dex didn't also hide and creep up in the bush for advantage on rolls or readying an action for the pop out of stealth attack.
i dunno. it seems hard, and maybe the whole point is for it to be hard to show that hey, this is the starter set of our new edition, in the new edition, things are back to how they used to be, where in encounters, your party has a chance of having multiple people fall unconscious (as i dont think a single hit the goblins can do could outright kill a PC). i think the first encounter is trying to set precident that d&d 5e is going to be tough, and is not filled with a lot of "scapegoats" or overly safe encounters so that PC"s seem powerful, the feeling of power for a PC party now is surving the encounter as a whole.
the analogy i would use is playing zelda compared to dark souls. D&D, to me years ago used to be dark souls lite in difficulty, you "died"(meaning had ot be stabalized) where as 4e was very much a zelda (as to say) easier not to die often at all and just adventure. i prefer the more difficult and dangerous version of d&d to that of the many powers survivable 4e. but who knows if that was the true intent or not of the first battle, to help players get acclimated/used to how things will be in 5e.
Heh...I guess to each his own. In reading the stealth section, the surprise section and unseen attackers section, I think more evidence points to surprise only. But that's just my opinion. Plus, if we are saying the goblins aren't seen until the arrows are loosed, then we have to assume the bows are notched, drawn and ready to go. Even though there are no rules for it, it sounds like a snap shot, and games that use that mechanic always have some sort of negative to the attack roll
Not to mention the module itself makes no mention of the goblins gaining advantage.
They can't rehide unless they have full cover. Even in obscurement, they are still 'seen.' Also remember that while using their bows, their AC is two worse.
I'd forgotten about the seeing the dead horses in advance.
Really unless the players don't bother looking around, that means they can roll for search (or some of them can). Using either passive or the roll, take the better. One gets it, then no surprise round.
Note that the hiding rules talk about giving away your position.
As far as I am concerned, you are only fully hiding if the enemy does not know where you are. Once you give away your position with an attack you are no longer fully hidden. Even if you duck behind cover, the enemy knows your position and will be expecting you to pop out and attach them again - hence no advantage to further attacks., you are merely in total cover.
If you move to a new location while managing to stay hidden then I would allow the next attack with advantage again - but again, as in the rules, your position is given away when the attack hits or misses.
"popping out" of cover when the enemy knows your location means they can see you. The rules say you get advantage on attacks if the enemy can't see you.
Remember to keep to the spirit of the rules rather than fall into the trap of treating thaem as boolean logic. If you know a guy is in a bush shooting arrows at you, and you know which bush, you would be able to dodge or defend against them same as if you could "see" the attacker.
The unseen attacker rules should applky when you don't know where the attack is coming from.
I've played through the first part twice. Had characters go down occasionally, but never any serious threat.
Also, keep in mind that continuing to town to drop off the cart (and possibly rest a night in the inn, if needed) is a perfectly reasonable option, even mentioned in the adventure, so if the party desperately does need a long rest they can get one.
I think most people are interpreting stealth and hiding to harshly; that is, making it too hard to do. If you lose stealth when you "pop out" of hiding, that makes it nearly useless. Just because someone pops out from behind a bush and immediately fires a bow, that doesn't mean their opponent is no longer surprised. Hell, you'd have to have jedi reflexes or spider sense to react before the shot got off. You might not even be looking in that direction. I mean, if someone jumped out of a bush and fired an arrow at my face, I'd be surprised. I think that's the very DEFINITION of being surprised.
Also, I know the rules say that in combat everyone is looking all around them for danger. But that's not always possible. If you are engaged in melee with someone, 90% of your attention better be focused on that person or you're dead. Also, if you are concentrating on fireing your bow or casting a spell, you're unlikely to be aware of someone sneaking up behind you.
Look, when I ran 1st and 2nd edition D&D, a thief had to roll both to Hide and to Move Silently. I thought that made stealth pretty useless in a lot of situations. So I ruled that in combat, there was too much noise to hear someone stealthy trying to sneak up behind you, so only a successful Hide check was needed. Along the same lines, I see no problem in a stealth check vs. an opponent's passive perception in combat, as long as the opponent is distracted in some way and you are out of their line of sight. Also, if you are hiding behind cover, you do not lose stealth by popping up to fire. You act too quickly for someone to react to. As the rules state, you give up your position once the attack hits or misses. Until then, you still gain the benefits of stealth.
I believe ruling otherwise makes stealth-based characters nearly useless. You have to let a character use their mechanical advantages or they have no value in game, and no one would pick a rogue over a fighter. Remember, rogues depend on their sneak attack to keep up with the damage other classes deal with their powers and attacks. To deny them that most of the time would defeat the purpose of the class. (Not the whole purpose, they have many useful skills outside of combat. But still, combat is a big part of the game and every player will want to be effective in it).
I do agree, though, that once you give away your position, and people know where you are, you cannot regain advantage unless you move stealthily and hide somewhere else.
BTShire wrote:
I think it's up to the DM. But as long as it's symetrical - if a goblin can pop around a corner and shoot with advantage, then so too can a PC.
Noon wrote:
First time I ran this encounter one of the characters was unconscious before initiative was rolled. Fortunately there were four more vs. four goblins. If you're really worried about four goblins killing five PCs then all I can say is play it. I played the hiding rules in the most generous way possible and even had the two charging goblins hide in the rear to move on casters who hung back when the rest of the party ran forward. I tried to make this encounter as challenging as possible and they still handled it in short order. Give people some credit and challenge them is my motto. If you're just there to tell your story the players get bored. I dropped someone before they ever made a single roll in game for that character. He's fine, but the whole group learned from minute one that I wasn't going to give them any breaks or coddle them. D&D from its inception has been a challenging game. 4e did everything imaginable to make intelligent play a non-issue. 5e put the control of the adventure back in the hands of the players.
Polaris wrote:
~~Just my thoughts...this is the first encounter (against a handful of goblins) in a first level module. None of my characters are going to die unless they do something extremely stupid (take totally unnecessary risks or fail to use precaution).
As the DM it is my job to make the encounter feel realistic regardless of the dice or the odds (that is why I always roll behind a DM screen). It’s not about the dice or the odds…it’s about the way the story is told.
I also think we may be thinking differently about how a goblin might act in this situation…I tend to think of them as cunning but with little discipline (which is consistent with their 10 INT and 8 WIS). It is one thing to have a good hiding spot…but it is another altogether to execute a highly coordinated military style ambush. I am reminded of my seven year old when we play hide and seek…he finds the best hiding spots but I can always find him because he giggles as soon as you get near him. It is highly likely that goblins in wait may bicker amongst themselves even as the group approaches. It is highly unlikely that they will coordinate their attack. A group of armed, trained, and well rested adventurers should be able to beat a similar number of goblins (even if they are in hiding). Note that this is not even a true ambush…there is a dead horse on the path…that gives the game away!
If you do feel that the odds are stacked then make some adjustments. I ran this with a group of two (a wizard and a warrior)…so I simply changed the numbers to make it two goblins instead of four (adjust the XP and rewards as well). In the cave where Sildar was tied up the team was getting creamed…so guess who had slipped his bonds and clobbered a goblin in the back of the head with a rock? You guessed it…Sildar to the rescue.
I appreciate a DM pushing for realism…but don’t forget to leave out the fun!!