Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 EbbTide808 Jul 10, 2014 11:29:02	The starter set adventure states that the players can earn a 10% share in the mine. Practically, what does  that mean?  Wizards, can you give us your thoughts here?
#2 Noctaem Jul 10, 2014 11:50:12	Whatever you want it to mean basically.
#3 iserith Jul 10, 2014 12:04:05	A trickle of money per level or a commodity that could be traded for something the player wants.
#4 Shade92000 Jul 10, 2014 13:37:05	My thoughts on this were that the PC's would be able to have a comfortable lifestyle without having to keep track of them spending 2gp a day for the lifestyle.
#5 iserith Jul 10, 2014 13:40:09	Shade92000 wrote:
#6 RustedKitsune Jul 11, 2014 18:15:59	iserith wrote:
#7 ankiyavon Jul 11, 2014 18:30:13	2 gp a day, for 5 PCs, comes out to 3,000 GP a month assuming a 30-day month (which most campaign worlds do).     So that is, in fact, pretty much identical to the numbers you came up with.
#8 RustedKitsune Jul 11, 2014 19:02:41	ankiyavon wrote:
#9 ankiyavon Jul 11, 2014 19:03:55	RustedKitsune wrote:
#10 iserith Jul 11, 2014 19:18:57	If it's 3000 gp per month for 5 PCs, that's 600 gp per PC per month or 20 gp per day, putting them into an Aristocratic lifestyle. According to the description on page 52, this might be a both a blessing and a curse.
#11 RustedKitsune Jul 11, 2014 19:30:32	Ok, I has maths!   Investment Returns (As Multiplier of Lifestyle Expenses) Per 1% Share Multipliers are in the format of X.Y Squalid 0.1 to 2: 3sp to 6gp Poor 1 to 5: 6gp to 30gp Modest 1 to 2: 30gp to 60gp Comfortable 1 to 2: 60gp to 120gp Wealthy 1 to 2.5: 120gp to 300gp Aristrocratic 1 to 1+N: 300gp to 300+(N*300)gp   Determining Investment Return Level: How much money do you want your player's to have? "I got a Slotless Codpiece of Munchkinry +Infinity!" "You are also facing an enemy that has a resitance of Infinity+1 versus munchkins, and a -5 versus balanced characters." Ok, but seriously, how much money are you going to let them have? That's your answer.   EDIT: iserith wrote:
#12 iserith Jul 11, 2014 19:41:59	What makes it elegant is eschewing the bookkeeping and number crunching and putting in simple game terms like a certain level of lifestyle expenses being covered. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Actuaries & Accountants. This is not to say that your breakdown isn't interesting for its own sake, however.
#13 RustedKitsune Jul 11, 2014 20:17:53	Thank you, considering that I saw what my older brother went through to calculate my rogue's net worth in that one game. 2 weeks with a spreadsheet? No thanks, I'll just take my method listed above, reduce income by chosen lifestyle expense, and save the rest. Of course, that was a compound investment split into reinforcing the investment and adding to my bank account.... Problem: That's for shares of a business. What about actual investments? Go look at the Pathfinder RPG Ultimate campagin, which does have rules for that. They're up on the pfsrd too.
(Reply to #6) SomeOtherDude	RustedKitsune wrote:
#15 Thank_Dog Aug 12, 2014 20:02:36	Noctaem wrote:
#16 iserith Aug 13, 2014 6:35:24	Thank_Dog wrote:
#17 Karunake Aug 13, 2014 6:39:49	Thank you for crunching the math. My players have manifested an interest in investing toward the growth of Phandalin, and had been pushing the Pathfinder Campaign book that contains the rules for economic investment down my throath for months now. That 10% might just be enough to get them started toward that goal!
(Reply to #15) SomeOtherDude	Thank_Dog wrote:
#19 tallric_kruush Aug 13, 2014 19:00:31	We had decided it will mean a steady, gradual improvement in upkeep/standard of living, much as many others seem to have decided. I think if the Fighter hadn't found magic plate armor in the mine, he may have made a case for living bare bones until he could afford plate armor (I customized the magic item finds to the party). He's a noble (knight variant background), so I'm glad he and his retainers won't have to slum it up to buy new armor.   We will continuing these characters (or the other batch that we are also playing through LMoP) into the HotDQ storyline, and I look forward to either deciding (if I DM) or learning (if I play) just how well the Rockseekers manage to run Phandelver.
#20 Brodomir_Rumblegut Aug 14, 2014 7:42:27	Ok, what do we know of the mine? I haven't read any where what was specifically type of mine it is - it just says a "rich mine" and "mineral wealth." We do know there is a forge for making weapons and armor. Therefore, looking at this as a geologist, I put forth it is a iron mine - a nice hematite mine. Now, the Cult of the Dragon might not be happy with that though since they are trying to build a hoard and not be in the smelting/smithing business - which dwarves would happily do in a heart beat. So, we have a hematite mine which gives us hematite ore. This type of furnace ready (no processing other than crushing prior to the smelter) ore typically has 62%-64% recoverable iron. Since this a “rich” mine with some magic involved let's be generous and make it 65% recoverable iron. Now, I think that a good sturdy dwarf with a steel pick could extract more than 1cubic foot (roughly about 5 shoe boxes to get an idea of how much that is) on an eight hour shift, but let's say mine stabilization and loading/ transporting (no mine carts or tracks described in the adventure) eats up most of the time. A cubic foot of hematite weighs 321.5 pounds with about 209 pounds of recoverable iron per miner per day. Using the cost of 1 silver piece (sp) per pound iron bar from the Players Handbook we get 20.9 gold pieces (gp) worth of iron per miner per day. Calculating 3 shifts a day with 20 miners each for 30 days, we get 37, 620 gp of iron to sell. Now using the expenses our esteemed accounting compatriot developed of 3,201gp, we have a profit of 34,419gp for a 30 day production. At a 10% share, the players will be receive 3,441.9 gp per month. That sounds great to me!
#21 Xaspian Aug 14, 2014 10:00:25	Consider also the spell forge. We don't know the rules for creating magic items yet, but in many campaigns they will be pretty rare. Perhaps a special, magically-charged forge, like the one in Wave Echo Cave, is necessary, in addition to any special components, procedures or rituals. If that's the case, then not only is access to it an invaluable resource for an adventuring party, but the owners of the mine can likely charge fairly highly to allow wizards and smiths access to it. Of course, the adventure says that the forge's magic has waned over the years, so perhaps some sort of quest might be needed to restore it to its former capability...
#22 tallric_kruush Aug 14, 2014 11:05:16	I love the thought that has gone into this thread. It has taken a cool, flavorful tidbit in the adventure, and turned it into a potentially very flavorful sideline for the game. If a DM chose to allow it, the characters could indeed make a very good living off of their shares in this mine.   If a DM did want to let this play out in his campaign, he could also point out that it will take time for the mine to actually become a functional, and then profitable, business. I elected to go this route, but hadn't thought out the long term potential to the extent this thread has taken it. I'll definitely have to discuss this with the other DM. It's likely "his campaign" that will continue on into the ToD adventures, which would make me a player. I could see the mine becoming a legitimate and lucrative source of income for the PCs sometime between the LMoP adventures, and the beginning of HotDQ.   Very cool potential. How would Phandalin develop with all the miners, support businesses, investors, mages and interested parties arriving to involve themselves with the mine? Phandalin could reappear throughout the campaign, or even be the focus of a campaign, if a DM and players chose to make it such.
#23 Brodomir_Rumblegut Aug 16, 2014 4:39:46	Just thought of some other minerals aka gems that might be associated with the mine. Given that there is a hot spring some where below the mines that makes the booming sound and there is a history of volcanoes in the area, it is likely the formation(s) being mined are likely alternating sandstones and tufts. Minerals that might form under these conditions could be jasper (common of varying qualities), varieties of quarts (smoky - uncommon and amethyst - rare), and even opal (rare). Now, the likelihood of these coming out of the same layer as the hematite isn't that great, but the jasper and quarts could be found around the periphery of the main ore body. The opal would be most likely associated directly with the hot spring and ancient blocked off pathways through which the water used to flow. These would be of interest to Cult for hoard building and add to the bottom line for the mine.
#24 shivafang Aug 16, 2014 10:38:17	RustedKitsune wrote:
(Reply to #15) Jharii	Thank_Dog wrote:
#26 OB1 Aug 19, 2014 13:49:07	RustedKitsune wrote:
#27 Brodomir_Rumblegut Aug 19, 2014 22:08:03	I think the real issue is that the 1lb ingot of iron (Fe) in the PH is too expensive. According to the PH the 1 lb Fe ingot sells for 0.1gp which equals about 0.017 gp per ounce of Fe. Compare this to the cost of silver; the PH has a 1 lb Silver (Ag) ingot for 5gp which is about 0.313 gp per ounce of Ag. such prices give a ratio of about 18.4 ounces of Fe to 1 ounce of Ag. Raw pig iron (not recycled iron; fresh smelted) at today prices is at a ratio of about 1,700 ounces of Fe to 1 ounce Ag. Now given that Fe prices are driven down by recycling, pre-industrial prices could likely be closer to the ratio of 1,000 ounces Fe to 1 ounce Ag. This would allow for more production coming out of the mine in mass without messing up the economy of the area so badly.
#28 AlHazred Aug 20, 2014 8:21:02	Don't forget taxes to the crown. Since it's a mine, it's not really a transportable source of wealth, so you'll have to pay taxes or it'll be seized "in the interests of the public good."   Also, guilds. The Miners' Guild has a monopoly on mining in the kingdom, and to get guild miners to do the mining means paying fees (and/or bribes) to the appropriate people.   Really, if the PCs are insistent on making it work, it can be a source of great wealth, and an equally great source of story potential!
(Reply to #26) Danny_Montanny	OB1 wrote:
#30 OB1 Aug 20, 2014 14:45:11	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#31 Panzermeyer Jun 13, 2015 14:24:54	I asked a question about this in my FB DD5e groupo and got directed to this excellent thread. I will likely place things a bit inbetween what is offered.   First of all the PofA has an adventure hook that Gundren sends the PC's to Red Larch with Platinum bars, so this is obviously a high mineral value mine.   Secondly this is a dwarven mine, last time i checked most dwarven mines don't behold to a King that is not a dwarven king. Also at the time peroid this is also likely set in in the Realms, Neverwinter is in the shambles and so I seriously doubt can extert it's strength to this area in any meaningful way. I would also suspect the Rockseeker brothers will be able to call clansmen to the mine to both work and set up defense. So some of the suggested additional expenses on the profitability I am not sure would count as much. By the time Neverwinter might hear of the wealth of the mine and try and exert some influenece I would think the dwarves would be well restablished in numbers as well as in the defenses of the mine, to at the least be able to tell those from Neverwinter to kick rocks if anything forceful was attempted. Now a reasonable mutually beneficial trade agreement is a different story, I am sure the dwarves would be all up for that.   I do love the idea for another adventure being to find a secret long lost component to get the Forge of Spells working again. After all from the back ground it does seem that though the mine was high in mineral wealth the true wealth was in the form of the craftsmanship and magic that was produced from the mine. Interesting thought line.
#32 OGRE1984 Jun 13, 2015 19:34:42	i remember something about platinum being found before getting shut down by orcs. the mine generated mithral as its main resource. the magic Forge of spells also would generate an awesome revenue stream. however no one took into consideration the slow wind up of production, and the cost of infrastructure to begin producing revenue.The dwarves own the mine and control its destiny, untrusting as they are [and should be] so they might hold out until word reaches other members of their clan to join them to help protect and restore the mine. also being long lived they may take time to negotiate terms of contracts,and quality control over building codes. so it would seem that it might not produce any income for quite some time, in fact it might cost alot to maintain until mining could begin.