Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 JPS42 Dec 28, 2014 15:54:46	Sometimes it behooves me to make sure that the party has a way of finding secret doors without actively checking every corner for them at the start. But how do I give clues without making their presence overly obvious? Strange inscriptions would seem to me too obvious, as would the loose torch which opens a panel when pulled. Pointing out a single detail would seem to give away their presence immediately.
#2 El_Condoro Dec 28, 2014 16:42:45	Passive Perception is used for this sort of thing but if you want them to find the secret door either just make the DC for the passive Perception check really low or just tell them it's there (but that kind of negates the purpose of a secret door).
#3 iserith Dec 28, 2014 18:27:26	JPS42 wrote:
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 29, 2014 1:12:36	My personal "key" to making sure that secret doors are hinted at, but not in a way that seems too on the nose is to be consistent in the amount of detail I provide via my descriptions - I'm always talking about the precariously perched open bottle of ink next to the pile of papers on a desk (not a secret door, just something someone might notice because it is less than expected) so dropping a detail into an area description that is a hint is less of a "he described X more than other stuff so we obviously need to do something with X." to the players, yet they still know it might be worth noting for later or interacting with.   I don't use secret doors often, but when I do they tend to be hidden under rail-less stairs, behind neatly-arranged bookshelves, within statue filled alcoves, or by large and ornate fireplaces and paintings.
#5 DM_HEEGZ Dec 29, 2014 5:29:56	Also, have the PP /  Wis (Perc) result reveal a feature of the environment, not the secret door itself. They can follow up the feature with an Int (Investigate) check. The investigation result can then specify the secret door being found or not. Also, if you want the doors to be very unlikely to be found, set the DC higher, 15 and up. This goes for both perc and investigate checks. I usually give advantage to dwarves on these sorts of checks, or... I think they have a racial bonus to this somehow, but I don't have my PHB handy at the moment.
#6 Timmee Dec 30, 2014 6:04:42	All of the above is good dvice. In addition, one could use Wisdom (Insight), or passive Insight to feel that this area just seems like there's a "whatever" somewhere in the vacinity. "There's something off about this corridor." "The statue ominously draws your attention."
#7 OoftaMeg Dec 30, 2014 9:30:04	A way I've done it (which I stole from a novel) is to look for unusual wear and tear, a polished spot on an otherwise rough wall or signs of people walking into a wall, scratches on the floor, etc. In addition if you know something about the person there may be hints that something is unusual or out of place.
#8 RedSiegfried Dec 30, 2014 10:17:58	So you want to make sure they find that secret door?  Here's the best way to do that.   Bob The Barbarian:  "That was kind of a tough fight, but those lizard men didn't stand a chance now that we're 10th level!"   DM:  "Yeah, you guys did great.  And by the way, as you're checking out the room, Bob happens to find a secret door behind stairwell to the north."   Bob The Barbarian:  "Awesome.  Let's check it out."   In other words, don't worry about not making it obvious.   If the adventure hinges upon the party finding the door, then why bother making them roll for it? (Unless you're going to do some sort of fun skill challenge where either success or failure still results in them finding the door.)  Just tell them they found it and ask them what they want to do with it.  The alternative (not finding it) is pointless, because the whole adventure depends on it.   If it's NOT important whether they find the secret door or not, then just describe the area in whatever way you like and let the players decide if they want to spend time searching.  If they don't find it, there's no loss and you've just saved time.   If you really, really, REALLY WANT them to find that secret door because it's fun, then once again, just tell them they found it and get down to how much fun they're going to have afterwards.   If you get a group that always wants to search every room for secret doors and there aren't any, there's no problem with just telling them outright there are no secret doors.  Don't waste their time and resources.   If you're concerned that when you actually ask them to roll for it that means they'll know a secret door is there, don't be concerned.  You're under no obligation to allow the players to act upon knowledge their characters wouldn't have unless the group as a whole agrees that's okay, and you're under no obligation to allow the party to search repeatedly.  And anyway, so what if they find the door due to metagaming?  Ask yourself if it's going to wreck the game because they took some liberties with out of game knowledge and ask yourself whether the result was fun.
#9 Imaculata Dec 31, 2014 5:11:54	I use secret doors in three ways:   * As an optional alternate route, sometimes a short cut, through a dungeon. If the players do not find it, no problem. Thats their loss. * To hide a road to a location that would give them a strategic advantage, and would maybe allow them to sneak up on enemies. Again, no problem if they don't find it. * As a reward. A secret little room that contains something valuable. Once again, if they do not find it, its their loss.   In my opinion, a secret door should never be a requirement for the players to find. If you want them to find it, don't make it secret.
#10 iserith Jan 01, 2015 8:16:34	Yes, I think that in general secret doors should be a reward for engaging with the exploration pillar which lead to opportunities rather than something that must be found.
#11 BRJN Jan 01, 2015 13:12:59	Watch a Scooby-Doo marathon and see how the secret passage is concealed in each.  Take notes.   In your room, describe several methods.  One is the true clue, the others are stuff the characters notice because it's a common way to conceal a secret door from casual (but not determined) ovservation.   Most players have watched Scooby-Doo (either with their kids or AS a kid) so they will remember some of the mechanisms.  If they are rusty, you could recommend they watch a marathon before the next gaming session - because you are going to hide a clue therein.   P.S. Giving away my age: use the classic Scooby-Doo cartoons, not the pseudo-3D modernized episodes.
#12 Imaculata Jan 02, 2015 2:30:42	Usually the whole point of hidden doors, is that they are hidden. So unless the party does a search check, they will not have any clue that it is there. But if you want to drop a clue:   * The players discover some drag marks on the floor that indicate that the bookcase has been moved. * The players notice that some books in the bookcase are less dusty. On closer examination these books seem to be triggers, but the players do not know the order to move them in. * The players feel a cold draft, but only a search check will reveal where it is coming from. * An npc flees away from the players, into a dead end, and has mysteriously vanished. There must be a secret door here. * An npc throws a smoke bomb on the floor, and disappears without casting any spell. If he didn't teleport, where did he go? * The players notice that one torch isn't lit, and hasn't been for a long time. Maybe it is a hidden mechanism. * The players notice that one end of the carpet is crumbled up a bit. Maybe it is covering something? * The players hear a hollow sound when they step onto the carpet. Maybe there is a hatch underneath? * The players notice a puddle of water next to the wall in a dungeon, but there are no drips from the ceiling. Where is the water coming from? * When inspecting a wall, one tiny brick seems to be loose. Pressing it, reveals it to be a hidden button. * A painting in a hall is slightly tilted. Straightening it out, turns out to activate a hidden mechanism. * One antler on a hunting trophy on the wall seems twisted upside down. Turning it activates a mechanism. * Footsteps lead up to a wall and vanish without a trade. * The players notice one tile in the floor sticks out more than the others, when their boot accidentally catches behind it. * Some cobwebs seem to be moving by themselves, indicating a draft. * A wardrobe is filled with old clothes that haven't been worn in decades, while the room itself seems perfectly in order. Close inspection of the back wall of the wardrobe, reveals a hidden door.
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	Imaculata wrote:
#14 alienux Jan 02, 2015 5:30:51	Imaculata wrote:
#15 Imaculata Jan 02, 2015 7:27:00	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#16 iserith Jan 02, 2015 7:40:03	In my view, clues are meant to be found and it's on the players to interpret what those clues mean and make decisions accordingly. I also don't require ability checks unless the players have stated an action that has an uncertain outcome. If they choose to carefully search a wall that has a secret door on it then they find it, no roll. If they are searching it in haste, then they might not find it or they might find it but it takes more time (which has downsides in context). If we hide clues behind process simulation checks, then we aren't really encouraging the players to make meaningful decisions - only rote procedure-following, e.g. "Begin standard room searching procedure #3 and roll dice until you win."
#17 Imaculata Jan 02, 2015 9:21:10	You make a valid point. I think a lot of DM's can fall into the trap of having a skill check for every mundane action. In general I assume players are competent at what they do. So climbing a rockwall, while using rope and climbing gear, will succeed. If it's during a heavy storm, then I make them roll for it. There is however a problem with what you suggest. Secret Door DC's are based on how well they are hidden. By allowing your players to automatically find any hidden door if they actively search for it, you negate the DC, and there for the price of the secret door as well. So a dungeon may as well contain the cheapest easiest to find secret doors, since your house rule completely negates secret door difficulty.
(Reply to #16) Coredump00	iserith wrote:
#19 iserith Jan 02, 2015 9:37:01	@Imaculata: First, it's not a house rule. Second, a DC is assigned to a task when the DM has heard the player's approach to task resolution and has found the outcome of the described action to be uncertain. By setting a DC for finding a secret door without hearing an approach, you are mitigating or negating the player's decision-making.   Notice I'm also not arguing for a character to "automatically find any hidden door if they actively search for it." I'm arguing for meaningful choice. By carefully searching the wall for a secret door, the players pay a cost of time which (in context) could mean wandering monster checks or taking a few steps closer to a fixed deadline when Bad Stuff occurs. Thus the meaningful choice is: Spend the time and find it (no roll) or do a rush job, make a check and maybe you find it, maybe you don't, maybe you do and something happens to complicate the situation. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "price" (because it seems like you could be talking about how much a secret door costs to construct), but the price in the example I cited above is time.
#20 Imaculata Jan 02, 2015 9:48:11	But like I said, be careful, because this rule completely ignores the DC and price-to-build hidden compartments or hidden doors. What you can do, is allow this depending on the height of the DC. If the DC is equal or lower than 20, the players can take 20. If it's higher than 20, you could rule that they must meet the DC with their search check.   As a DM, you can also choose to grant bonusses on search checks based on how detailed the players are in their approach. But I wouldn't simply give them the secret, just because they take their time.   What I also once did in a Cthulhu campaign, is simply let the players search multiple parts of the room. For example, a player investigated a closet, but rolled poorly. So he didn't find anything. I then asked the player if he wanted to search other parts of the room. He decided to search the desk, and rolled the required DC. The player now found a hidden diary taped to the bottom of the desk, instead of where I had originally decided it would be (the closet). As a DM, you can move where the secret is, and the players will never know. If the player had kept on making bad rolls, I would have simply decided that he could not find it.   But going back to your example, what you are suggesting basically, is "taking 20", which is allowed in the rules. However, if the DC of the secret is higher than 20, then that should not be sufficient. No matter how long you decide to search, if a secret is really well hidden, you will not find it.
#21 iserith Jan 02, 2015 10:08:31	Coredump00 wrote:
#22 iserith Jan 02, 2015 10:10:10	Imaculata wrote:
#23 El_Condoro Jan 02, 2015 15:14:53	This is why I have trouble reconciling your approach, iserith, and the dice-rolling component of the game.   Around a D&D table there will be players of all varieties: some will be articulate, some will know all sorts of things about all sorts of things, some will like rolling dice, some will like role-playing etc etc. Depending on the group, some may not even know what a closet is. A wardrobe they've heard of, though.    If the DM relies on the player describing their actions, it automatically favours those players (note, not the characters) who are articulate and know enough to describe their actions. The abilities of the character are pretty much ignored. I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but I like to see the character's abilties come into the equation and not just the player's ability to visualise and describe his or her character's actions.   For example, searching for a secret door: Player 1 is articulate and has the knowledge of dungeons etc and is able to describe in detail what her character is doing. Her character has a low Wisdom (Perception) skill and a low Intelligence because that's how she chose to build her. Player 2 is not articulate and struggles with visualising the environment (as an aside, I am always asking my DM to describe the environment because I seem to lack this ability). She says "I want to search the room." DM: How do you go about your search? Player - "I dunno. Lift stuff, open doors, prod around." This character has a high Wisdom (Perception) and a high Intelligence.   My understanding of your approach is that Player 1's character would almost certainly find the secret door, whereas Player 2 might need to make a die roll.    I'm not really criticising your approach, but I am trying to reconcile player skill and character abilties so that one doesn't outweigh the other to the detriment of both.
#24 Noon Jan 02, 2015 16:34:21	JPS42 wrote:
#25 Noon Jan 02, 2015 16:29:47	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #25) AaronOfBarbaria	Noon wrote:
#27 iserith Jan 02, 2015 20:57:43	El_Condoro wrote:
#28 El_Condoro Jan 02, 2015 21:11:50	Thanks for your explanations. I hadn't got to the section in the DMG that you mentioned, but it does look good and I am reading it now.   On that, there is a good sidebar on Intelligence vs. Wisdom (p.238) that deals with an interesting element of finding secret doors, which this thread is about: the idea of a team effort. One character with good Wisdom detects a clean section of a wall and another with good Intelligence interprets that as being a secret door. I like the idea of a party working as a team like that and using ability scores together.
#29 Noon Jan 02, 2015 21:34:24	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#30 Psikerlord Jan 02, 2015 23:27:24	Imaculata wrote:
(Reply to #29) AaronOfBarbaria	Noon wrote: