Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xactor Aug 18, 2014 12:12:32	What is the best way to make an epic battle, sort of like a war at the end of a campaign, like the war of the lance. Also how about battles aboard a ship, for example, the PCs are traveling across the ocean and the dice decide that on the 3rd day they are attacked by pirates or some sort of sea monster. Any help will be appreciated, thanks!
#2 vodokar Aug 18, 2014 13:05:42	As the roots of D&D actually originated from a midevil combat miniatures game, Chain Mail, mass combat is, of course, something very doable.  There have been several versions of it in the past.  Perusal through the dnd classics site will reveal different product examples of how it was done in the original, 1e and 2e eras, which could probably be relatively easily converted to 5e.
#3 Xactor Aug 18, 2014 13:25:58	Thanks for the info :-)
#4 Arithezoo Aug 18, 2014 14:03:35	When I have done this, I let skill checks stand in place of the nitty-gritty details of the mass combat.  Every so often, I will have something happen that demands the immedate attention of the PCs, and we switch scale to a regular fight amid the larger battle.   So, for example, before the battle the players can decide how to organize the defenders, keep morale high, ensure the safety of the townsfolk, scout, etc.  When the battle begins, they need to direct the defenders, issue commands, shore up weak spots, etc.  The big issue here tends to be spellcasters; I let them decide what spells they want to cast and figure out what effect it will have.  Big spells generally have a big effect, but means the caster will be down a slot (or two or three...) when the next thing happens...   Which takes us to the "something happens" part.  The dragon that had been circling above finally makes its move.  The attackers bring out their big guns: a troop of frost giants.  The enemy mage finally shows himself.  Etc.  The PCs now need to directly deal with this threat.
#5 vodokar Aug 18, 2014 14:44:34	It's been a very long time since I've read any of the mass combat stuff, but from what I recall: In general, the way that it was handled in previous versions was to have two different points of view.  The campaign view and the hero's view, if you will.  So, during a turn, you would move your combat units (scale: approx 1 miniature = 20 men) and have unit combat, then we would zoom in on what the hero's were doing, showing them facing off in a skirmish i.e. a small area of the larger conflict (scale: 1 miniature = 1 man), and the result of that skirmish would then give some bonus during the next unit phase.  Each turn, there would be a unit and hero turn. I believe there was the option to use magic during either unit or hero phase.
#6 woif Aug 18, 2014 16:58:31	In a legends and lore article at the beginning of the year they mentioned implementing a "battlesystem" module in the DMG that would allow for mass combat like you ask about. If I recall it was basically organizing groups of similar units into 'stands' that would take a combat round together (7 archers in one stand shooting another stand of 10 half orc barbarians) and particularly powerful creatures could stand as a solo (dragons, liches, PCs). He also mentioned something about allowing two solos to enter a duel and take 10 rounds of normal combat with just the two of them. Hope that helps!
#7 Xactor Aug 18, 2014 20:38:00	All of the info provided does indeed help, thanks guys :-)
#8 OrwellianHaggis Aug 19, 2014 6:44:41	woif wrote:
#9 Kazadvorn Aug 19, 2014 7:20:24	It depends on what you're really trying to accomplish. What's the scale that you're trying to represent... Armies of hundreds or even thousands on each side? Large skirmishes with 50 to 500 combatants on each side? Small skirmishes with less than 50 but more than 4 to 10 on a side?   If you actually want to fight a tabletop battle then there are a couple of  systems out there... Armies of Arcana (but I'm not sure how well supported the rules are at this point) and Warhammer Fantasy from Games Workshop. Both are decent systems, but they require a fair bit of investment.   In terms of a normal D&D situation, I generally have the players in a small engagment (or series of engagements) that will have a huge outcome on the overall battle. One scenario that I used in 4e was to have the PC's discover a small flanking unit trying to come through a mountain pass. Encounter 1 was the fight in the pass, to stop the flanking unit and save the friendlies from being attacked from two sides. (a couple of brutes and artillery with a bunch of minions) Encounter 2 was an effort to track the survivors of the first encounter back along their trail.. sort of a counter flanking effort. Encounter 3 was an effort to slip through the enemy's rear guard and get into the enemy leader's camp. Encounter 4 was the boss fight where the players actually face off against the enemy general and try to break the morale of the enemy army by destroying it's leaders.   In the shipboard encounter scenario you could use the same concept - have the players fight the pirate captain and his bodyguards on the quarterdeck while the battle rages on the main deck below. You could use an opposed roll each turn to see how the main battle is going - if there are 100 crew on each side, then just roll a d20 for each side. The result determines the number of casualties on each side. Pirates roll a '10' they take out 10 crew. Crew rolls a 3 - not so good for the crew. Once one side gets the upper hand (2 to 1 advantage?) then the nature of the battle changes... if the crew is getting slaughtered - then maybe the PC have to start thinking about jumping ship.
#10 vodokar Aug 19, 2014 13:00:00	Found this link which you might find interesting.  http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dungeoneering-and-art-war
#11 Atheosis Aug 19, 2014 13:16:33	I'm generally a fan of the cinematic approach where the DM arbitrates and describes what is happening in the larger battle while allowing the PCs to engage in direct combat with a more limited number of opponents.  If you want the PCs to face a horde of foes I find that it's best to present them more as a swarm than as individual enemies.  Then it becomes more about not being overwhelmed via skill checks than about individual attack rolls (after all it's pretty much impossible to miss).  It's also where AOE spells and abilities can really shine.  I have never encountered a simulation-oriented system that actually worked very well, and in the end this is a hobby about story-telling not battle simulation.
#12 Illithidbix Aug 19, 2014 16:32:28	How much control do you want the players have over their side's actions?   Massed combat can sound cool in theory, but can take away from player's engagement to be basically the DM throwing dice at themselves.   That being said, the minion rules in 4th Ed meant the players helped a 20 strong milita defend a town against a small (50 odd) Hobgoblin army (with a few leaders with normal monster stats), it worked pretty smoothly to actually play it out.
#13 vodokar Aug 20, 2014 12:27:28	Atheosis wrote:
#14 vodokar Aug 20, 2014 12:30:40	Illithidbix wrote:
#15 Uldred Aug 23, 2014 10:38:17	If you look at the final battle in Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, even though the battle was huge it really came down to the Death Knight being killed by a woman, Aragorn making a deal to free the ghosts and some other odds and ends for the other characters.  As a DM you can use the battle as theatre while the characters set out to achieve their goals.  As long as the characters achieve these goals the battle will turn out in their favor.  How much in their favor could be based on how many of the objectives was successful.