Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yrtalien Aug 12, 2014 21:12:29	OK,   We just started our 5E game and my players are really enjoying it.  They have made noises about trying to continue past 20th (yes they think far-far ahead) and I said they might be able to multi-class but I'd have to look into it.   Most everything would seem to work out except that the Multiclass spell chart only goes to 20.  I tried figuring out the math behind its progression but I failed (which is sad I suppose)... I acccept my failings and come to you my excellent friends for help.   I'm not worried about monsters and such because I can fudge numbers but the things that they look at need to be set in stone or there will be mutiny.   Thanks
#2 Xuub Aug 13, 2014 12:24:12	Well they released Basic D&D, then they gave us D&D, so maybe by the time your group achieves level 20 we will have Advanced D&D or something like the old Immortals Rules?
#3 ankiyavon Aug 13, 2014 12:38:27	Unless you are planning to continue to raise proficiency bonus for levels after 20 (which I wouldn't do), I would not increase the number of spell slots available after 20 levels of spellcasting power.     Gaining new classes and levels in different spellcasting classes would still give you new abilities, as it would unlock access to new spells and greater options for those slots, without needing to increase the actual number of slots you have access to.
#4 Chimerasame Aug 13, 2014 15:19:34	ankiyavon wrote:
#5 ankiyavon Aug 13, 2014 16:28:08	Chimerasame wrote:
#6 Chimerasame Aug 14, 2014 9:53:06	I guess I was mentally equating a fighter's proficiency bonus to... a wizard's proficiency bonus, since the wizard also relies on that for their own attack roll spells and save-triggering spells. I do see your point, though; the fighter relies on it *more* than the wizard.   I don't think you'd necessarily need to increase proficiency bonus when you increase spells, but, you would need to make sure that non-spellcasters continue to get *some* proportional benefit. The Battlemaster Fighter keeps getting more/bigger superiority dice, perhaps. Maybe the Champion Fighter expands their crit range again once every ten levels. Perhaps all fighters get another attack with Extra Attack every 6-8 levels or so.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   As for the original question -- I looked at the chart last night and thought about what patterns I could see.   - Increasing a character level, on average, gives you one spell slot. - Not counting first, three levels give you two spell slots: level 3, 5, and 9. - Three levels give you zero spell slots. I can't recall exactly but I think it's around 12, 14, and 16 or so.   So, if I were to expand the chart further, I would do my darndest to stick to increasing one slot per character level. The question is, how do you choose which slot to increase on each level?   Another pattern: - With the exception of comparing highest-available-spell-level to lowest-unavailable-spell-level, there is never a case where the difference between slots of level N and slots of level N+1 is more than 1. (In other words, you never have 3 4th level spells while having only 1 5th level spell. In other other words, if you read across a single row, the number never drops by more than 1 at a time.) - Above level 9 or so, the "exception" above ceases to be an exception.   So, I would add slots more or less uniformly, such that the above pattern is also maintained.   I'd try to space them out so the 'drops' reading horizontally are more or less as even as possible. For example I'd try not to create something like: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2. (I think that number of slots would mean the character would have to be around level 50-something.) I'd prefer in that case to have something more like, 8 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4. (Same total slots: 54.)   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   I thought of another question: do you want there to ever be 10th-or-higher level slots? This would allow characters to pump more oomph into their spells that can be cast with variable-level slots, even if you don't actually homebrew up any 10th+ level spells. I can see pros and cons to that. (One con is, I don't think any of the 9th level spells are written in a way that would support casting them higher.... that's a small deal though).   If you *do* create 10th+ spell slots, it's difficult to come up with a pattern for this. Characters gain a new spell level every two levels, EXCEPT at level 19, where the highest level spell remains 9th. So there's mostly a pattern, but it breaks itself right at the end where we might want to continue it.   If you're gonna introduce epic-level slots, my inclination would be to give the first one right at 21st, because, hey, epicness is epicness, people should experience the excitement when they hit 21st. So, under this scheme, 21st would look exactly like 20th but with a 10th column with a "1" in it.   The question now becomes, how often do you grant additional ones? Every 2, like before? (I don't recommend.) Every 4, like 17-21? (Maybe. This'd be 10 at 21, 11 at 25, 12 at 29, 13 at 33...) Every 10? (So, 10 at 21, 11 at 31, 12 at 41...)   Or it could be variable. Make the level-gap rise by two for each slot. I actually kinda like this.   So, grant 10th at 21, after 4 levels. Grant 11th at 27, after 6 levels. Grant 12th at 35, after 8 levels. Grant 13th at 45, after 10 levels.   This seems rather elegant to me. All the meanwhile, they continue to get one additional spell slot, every character level, in a spell level that they already have.   I could try to write up this chart sometime later today
#7 Goober4473 Aug 14, 2014 11:35:06	One question you need tow answer is: do you want to make every epic character automatically multiclassed?   Because of how abilities combine, it may be worth limited multiclass to a total of 20 level, after which points you no logner take class levels, but instead pick one of a few bonuses at each level. Sor isntance, +1 caster level would advance your spell progression by one level (of coruse after extending the chart as Chimerasame laid out), and give you say a d6 hit die. Let proficiency bonus increase as usualy.   If you do allow multiclassing above level 20, I think it would be worth adding a way to progress a single class beyond 20 that is comperable to that.