Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 drgonjo Apr 15, 2015 11:48:40	I'm a new DM and I'm putting together my first campaign. I'm planning to have my first major villian be a hag coven and I'm trying to figure out what the minimum level my PCs will need to be to have a chance. I want to make sure I prepare more than enough content for them to be strong enough to survive, but I don't want this first "act" of the campaign to drag on too long without them confronting the real threat or for them to be so strong they plow through their first big baddy.   My PCs will be in a party of 4. I play with them regularly and we're generally pretty tactical in our approach and prefer encounters that skew tough. That said we tend not to go too meta and end up rolling to determine how much we know about a monster before exploiting a weakness or defending against their strength. So long story short I expect them to play their characters well, but not optimally to the threat they're facing.   RP wise the Green Hags are the most appropriate for the adventure. According to the DM tables 3 Green Hags as a coven are a 10,800 XP encounter. That works out to a deadly encounter for a group of level 9s, which is way past where I want this leg of the adventure to wrap. If I reskin the Sea Hags that drops the encounter to 6600 XP which is a deadly encounter for 4 level 6 characters. I'm leaning that direction.   I know I can ease up a fight against the coven by limiting the spells I have them use, but I'd prefer not to. I want the hag's magic to be really scary and if I pick the spells they use poorly my PCs will probably notice I'm pulling punches.    I've read that groups can usually handle encounters well beyond deadly if they're fully rested and willing to use all their resources. Would that scenario allow a group of level 4s to handle the level 6 deadly encounter? What's the minimum level you would throw the Green Hag or Sea Hag coven at the party?
#2 iserith Apr 15, 2015 12:32:15	Flumph encounter balance. Run it as-is: three green hags in a coven versus 4th- or 6th-level PCs. Telegraph the difficulty inherent in defeating the coven and create opportunities for the characters to gather information, prepare, and set up advantages for themselves. An obvious way for the PCs to get an advantage in the fight is finding and destroying the hag's eye. If they can destroy it, the three hags take 3d10 damage and are blinded. That's a pretty big advantage for the PCs and encourages them to interact with the exploration pillar during the scene. What's more, Play around with what "defeating" the coven means. Stopping or delaying their nefarious plans might not require reducing their hit points to zero.   You can also just say that the green hag is some kind of strange conjoined triplet - a three-headed monster with three cantankerous personalities. Increase the hit points, give her the coven abilities, and maybe some multiattack (two claws or claw plus spell). Or borrow some ideas from the Legendary Actions of other monsters which allow for the hag to do things "off-turn." Recalculate the CR and see what that it is with that set up if you're still interested in doing things by the numbers. (Be aware that the numbers aren't all that reliable though.)
#3 Noctaem Apr 15, 2015 12:23:34	Word of the day:  Canktankerous   can·tan·ker·ous
(Reply to #2) drgonjo	iserith wrote:
#5 iserith Apr 15, 2015 13:09:32	Why have a check to know what the hag eye is at all? Just give them the skinny on the hag's eye, perhaps through a knowledge NPC or even through a well-known nursery rhyme. Knowing that the thing exists and what it does doesn't necessarily reveal its location, nor make it easy to get a hold of.   On that note, consider a scenario in which the hags are going to complete a ritual or the like at a certain time. If they are not stopped, Bad Things happen in the campaign. Meanwhile, getting the hag's eye represents a significant chunk of time - maybe even too much time if the PCs botch the job. So there's a tradeoff here: Confront the hags without the advantage but have plenty of time to spare. Or confront the hags with the advantage but face them right on the cusp of them finishing the ritual (or whatever).
#6 drgonjo Apr 15, 2015 13:34:43	I can switch things up, but I was planning to have the eye in the possession of one of their agents who is the first minor villain. That way the hags can learn of the adventurers meddling and begin working against them long before they're revealed. I like that story wise, but it does mean the players will likely encounter the eye before they understand its relevance. I do have a Harper NPC who is going to be involved so he can be a good source of information if the players don't figure it out. I really like the idea of having a ritual they need to stop to add urgency. I've got a great way to tie it into the story too. Thanks again for all the advice. Much appreciated.
#7 BRJN Apr 15, 2015 15:42:33	If you think the PCs will get clobbered the first time they face the hags, have them collide someplace other than the hags' lair.  The hags take a few swings / spells, then summon up a bodyguard (maybe a Shambling Mound) and depart the area.  The PCs know they are on the right track, and that they have to get tougher.  If the hags can change the environment (for instance by turning ground to swamp) they can trap the PCs on an island while they leave.
#8 Gwaithador Apr 15, 2015 17:01:17	I agree with Iserith, keep the hags as is and I like his suggested complication. In story, provide access to the information about the eye; perhaps through an NPC that might make a temporary ally against the hags or even a long term henchman. A deadly encounter as the final showdown of a story arc isn't a bad thing at all.
#9 krappleby1976 Apr 15, 2015 22:48:37	HI,   The general consensis for level fights is as below..   Based on four player characters, each at the same level (round the levels up) Ie, 4 players at level 3 = 4*3 / 4 gives you 3   Now based on that..   a third level encounter is easy (players will use around 15-25% of thier posessions on this enounter) a fourth level encounter is slightly more difficult (players will generally use around 40-50% of their posessions) a fifth level encounter is more difficult (Players will generally use aroung 60-80% of thier posessions in this enounther) a sixth level encounter is hardest  (Generally players will use all their possessions in this fight. Spells, magic items, etc)   Generally i dont go about 4 levels highger than the group CR rating. that normally along with a lot of small mobs, does the trick.