We got our MM today, and were very unhappy about the lack of beast forms for our group's moon druid. It didn't really add anything of substance beyond what we hadn't already seen in PHB and DM basic, and HDQ supplement.
The lack of options above CR 2 remains. At a glance, seems like only 8 options.
CR 3 Giant Scorpion, Killer Whale, Ank.Dino
CR 4 Elephant
CR 5 Giant Crocodile, Giant Shark, Tric.Dino
CR 6 Mammoth
The 4 elemental forms you get at 10th (from elemental wild shape), don't get better from character level (there are not "Greater" versions of the elementals). So should you rely on those, you are playing the exact same stat block from level 10 to level 20. I've got a feeling they will feel squishy at some point in there, which is rough when you consider it uses up both wild shapes.
None of this is horrible. But it is oddly limited, in our opinion... especially considering the moon druid specializes in this.
Is anyone creating other wild shape options? Like a "large" size (lesser) version of Giant Ape, etc.?
[edit: removed bad idea for house rule... really just looking for more variety in form choices, or way to make lower CR forms more useful throughout entire druid career... thereby adding more choices]
Thoughts?
PS, yes we know he's still a full spellcaster and can burn spell slots to keep forms healed. But we'd even be willing to give up spell slots in other ways to "fuel" more wild shapes for a moon druid specialization. This is more about how to make it feel more wild shape-y.
Oddly limited? Seriously?
/epic facepalm
One house rule my group is going to try out is that a Moon druid in wild shaped form can use either the beast form's HP or his own HP, whichever is higher. This helps sustain the utility of lower level forms at higher level, and offer a lot more variety to the shapes they may want to use. I'm not sure if this becomes too good an option at higher levels, though.
Direach wrote:
Glad you like it! We haven't had a chance to put it into play yet, but the DM is amenable to it. I'd be interested to hear what your group's experiences are. Since I'm playing the Moon druid, I'll be the guinea pig (no pun intended) for this experiment. I was more interested in its potential to allow some weaker forms to be more enticing (like wolf, owl, etc) than in being a super-tank, but we'll see how it goes.
There is some abuse potential, in that a crafty player could boost his personal HP way up with stat boosts and feats; a 10th level druid with 18 Con and Tough could have 110hp or more, as opposed to 70 or so with 14 Con and no Tough feat. That's a big HP buffer to have on top of a formidable wild shape form.
I'd say that if you go that route, that it's actually the Druid's hit points, not "temp hit points" from the wild shape. This way it's still a lot more than what the shape would have, but it also makes sure the druid will try to be careful about tanking and just rushing in thinking "I'M INVINCIBLE!" Drop to 0hp and those are your actual hit points down to 0hp = unconscious, not making another wild shape at 60 hp on their next turn.
If there is some whining or hesitation about it using their actual hit points, then remind them of the alternative and let them take it or leave it.
Giving them a way to double, triple, etc. their hit point pool is way OP and no other class gets anything similar or anything the comes close. Just imagine a 19DRU/1BARB who Rages when he gets low on health. Now he's taking 1/2 damage from slashing, bludgeoning, etc, *and* he'll still be able to move into another wild shape on his next turn and be back at full hit points.
No, I'm sorry. That all screams munchkin to me.
Thank_Dog wrote:
I wouldn't recommend it as a replacement for the regular wild shape rulesfor everyone, by any stretch. It depends on the player, and the DM. For my own group, I know we'll never get past 12th level before the DM gets tired of running and turns the job over to me, so there won't be any level 20 epic partying. 
And for my own part, I was more interested in being able to take forms like I mentioned (owl, wolf, etc) without getting one-shot back into human form thanks to my 13 hit point health pool. Since I already know I'm not going to munchkin it, it will probably work for us. And if it's too good, we'll switch it off.
Direach wrote:
I think this is perhaps as much a function of the generosity of the DM basic guide as much as anything else.
I'm kinda curious, almost every other discussion of WildShape I've seen in 5E has been "OMG NERF!",
Being able to do it 2/rest is noted as a particually powerful thing.
Personally I'm waiting for actual play before thinking of changing it./
What reasons do you want to make it better? And what level range are you looking at playing?
Direach wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
Undrhil wrote:
I really like the idea about using the Druids hit points instead of the animals, as a temp HP pool. I would not say "whichever is higher" is actually nesceserry.
I see the following benefits:
-the HP curve is going to be a lot smoother and predictable, so the 37hp monster at 2nd level doesn't occour
-it makes it much more viable to turn in to a small and not so deadly creature of cr 1/8 or so, without being squashed by a successful save against an aoe.
-it makes the Druids physical con and features that increase HP actually important for moon Druids. The beasts con is still used for saves ofc.
I see the following negatives:
-the moon Druids real force is tanking. Other classes can usually deal more damage than it. It might reduce it's effectiveness too much, but then that's the price you pay for versatility.
-some untested combos could make it really really powerful.
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Other ideas:
My favourite playtest packet iteration of the Druid completely ignored the MM and gave the Druid a stat boost and some features of a form. So at level X you got canine form, and level Y you got birds etc.
This had the (in my mind) fantastic effect that Druids couldn't dump their physical stats ands still expect to be good in combat. People complained that it didn't feel right that just because they had str/dex/con 8 that they couldn't turn in to a frothing 17str bear with loads of hit points, but had to be a weak bear and that it was for some reason unfair that Druids had to pay the same atribute price as all other classes to be good in melee.
A combination of that with the hit point system could probably work quite well, and open up the versatility and imagination without overpowering the options.
The biggest con is of course that a system like that would have to be build from scratch and that is a lot of work and playtesting
Also special attacks of the forms would need some work.
You mean the book designed for DM's doesn't have much for players? Say it ain't so!
tehsquirrely wrote:
The monstrosity keyword has replaced beast from fourth edition for pretty much anything that doesn't exist on earth, regardless of whethre the creatures are magical or naturally occuring.
I really dislike the monstrosity keyword. 4E did this much better.
I think a particularly valid house rule would be to allow PCs to use wild shape to transform into a subset of monstrosities that appear as natural beasts in previous editions. Especially given how limited some of the tiers are. So far I've only gone through the 4EMM, but under this rule, all of these creatures would be valid targets for wild shape (assuming, of course, they meet the other criteria):
- Griffon
- Hippogriff
- Bulette
- Basilisk
- Drakes
- Pseudodragon
- Hook Horror
- Hydra
- Oozes
- Otyugh
- Purple Worm
- Roc
- Wyvern
I also think it might be a decent exercise to figure out monster up- and down-scaling rules so that if a PC really likes to be a wolf or giant wasp, he can do so at high levels without being underpowered.
I think I would be willing to allow the druids to access monstrocities and oozes. It is a little too meta to say "these are natural creatures" and "these are unnatural creatures." If chimera and owl bears have been around for thousands of years, the "unnaturalness" of their origins is pretty distant. It might be a case by case thing--if a druid can't become a goblin, I doubt I would let one become a yuan ti or a medusa.
I think I would be willing to allow the druids to access monstrocities and oozes. It is a little too meta to say "these are natural creatures" and "these are unnatural creatures." If chimera and owl bears have been around for thousands of years, the "unnaturalness" of their origins is pretty distant. It might be a case by case thing--if a druid can't become a goblin, I doubt I would let one become a yuan ti or a medusa.
Mechagamera wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Oraibi wrote: