Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 delong1522 Apr 28, 2015 16:44:49	Hello all,   I am having a bit of trouble coming up with a fast and easy way to modify monsters challenge ratings.   Preferably, I would like to be able to take a monster stat block and adjust it up or down the challenge rating scale to fit whatever encounter I need.   Does anyone have a simple method they would suggest for this?   For instance, in 4th edition it was: +1 attack bonus and +1 to Defs/2 levels of increase, and +1 dmg per attack/1 level of increase (or some such).   The way the scale for adjusting the challenge rating in the DMG seems to work is to add about 14 hit points per challenge rating, approximately 5-6 damage average, and increased by 1/3rd of an attack bonus and AC.   Thoughts?
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Apr 28, 2015 18:35:46	If you don't think that the guidelines in the DMG (around page 273, and encompassing something like 9 pages - but that involves examples, art, and charts, so it isn't nearly as involved as the page count implies) are fast and easy.... then you are out of luck.   ...but the more important and useful question is this: What are you trying to adjust, and why are you trying to adjust it? The 5th edition rules and monsters are designed so that there is far less need for adjusting their stats - if you want to use orcs but your party is higher level, you can just use more orcs.
#3 delong1522 Apr 28, 2015 19:29:45	I'll start with the second question: I don't want to just use more of the same monsters, in part because in my experience (in my games across virtually every system I've used, may not be reflective of others), simply adding more monsters pads the actual play time of the encounter. That's something I'm trying to avoid.   I find the monster stat blocks to be well balanced. My analysis of the chart listed in that section of the book and its accompanying text leads me to conclude that it does not reproduce the result of the monster stat blocks (the maximum AC listed even for CR 30 is too low, the maximum attack bonus is too low, the average damage is too high, etc).
#4 Xeviat-DM Apr 28, 2015 19:43:22	Because not all monsters have the specific offense and defenses of their CR; a CR 5 could be CR 6 offensively and CR 4 defensively. It's about averages. So, I'd say if you're trying to modify a monster and increase it's CR by 1 (not that you'd really need to, but it's simple for my explaination), you could find where it's HP lie and increase it by one step, find it's AC and increase it by one level, find it's attack and damage ... you get the idea. Obviously, you'd only really want to do this for larger jumps, but there you are.
#5 delong1522 Apr 28, 2015 19:56:42	Right. I get that and have taken that into account in my analysis.   CR 30 on the chart maxes at 19 AC and +14 attack bonus. I can find a CR 23 monster (several) in the monster manual with +17 or 18 attack bonuses and 22 AC.   I don't feel that the chart is correct enough to adequately use for modifying the Challenge Rating of the Monster Blocks.   That being said, I like the Monster Blocks and they've performed well in my campaign when used at their intended CRs.   I'm hoping someone might have developed a better way of altering them. I'm working on tweaking the chart myself to give a wider range of results, but I'm sure there are those better at than on here than I. Some of them might have already given it thought or even produced something.   Hope that explains better.
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	delong1522 wrote:
#7 delong1522 Apr 28, 2015 21:19:01	Well...if everyone here thinks the monsters should max at AC 19 and +14 attack bonus at CR 30, then I guess I'm alone in my opinion...
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	delong1522 wrote:
#9 Xeviat-DM Apr 29, 2015 1:20:32	You average the level of attack and damage to get offensive CR; you average the level of HP and AC to get defensive CR; then you average the two.   And then you playtest it and adjust it for extrenuous things, like special movement modes, exceptional resistances and invulnerabilities, and other attributes. I doubt everything matches up, but you can still count how many levels you are increasing its potency by.
#10 delong1522 Apr 29, 2015 4:27:51	It doesn't seem like I'm getting any dissenters, however.   The Chart at CR 30 maxes out at  19 AC and +14 attack bonus, but let's look at CR 23: 19 AC and +11 attack bonus.   Then let's compare that to the CR 23 monsters in the book:   Ancient blue dragon: 22 AC and +16 attack bonus Ancient silver: 22 and +17 Empyrean: 22 and +17 Kraken: 18 and +18   Now CR 22, with the chart maxing at AC 19 and +11: Ancient green: 21 and +15 Ancient bronze: 22 and +16   Now CR 21, with the chart maxing at AC 19 and +11: Solar: 21 and +15 Ancient black: 22 and +15 Ancient copper: 21 and +15 Lich: 17 and +12.   The lich is the closest one to matching the chart, and I think that's because of it being a spellcaster. I just must have hit my head or something because to me it seems obvious that the chart isn't synching up. I am absolutely taking the average into account when looking at this as you can see from the examples. I included every CR 23, 22 and 21 in the MM that I could find.
(Reply to #10) dave2008	delong1522 wrote:
#12 AaronOfBarbaria Apr 29, 2015 10:25:03	That's twice now that posters have said that defensive CR is effective HP and AC "averaged", and that's not actually accurate, so here's the same sentiment re-worded for accuracy:   Defensive CR is found by locating the effective average hit points (actual average hit points adjusted by resistances, immunities, regeneration, and frightening powers) on the chart, and then adjusting the CR up or down by 1 point for every 2 points of difference between the effective AC (actual AC adjusted by traits like magic resistance or turn resistance) and the AC value found in the same row as the creature's effective average hit points.   Offensive CR is similarly found by locating effective average damage per round on the chart and then adjusting by 1 point for every 2 points of difference between the attack bonus found on that row and the effective attack bonus of the creature.   Then those two are averaged to find the CR.   So the chart doesn't "max out" at AC 19; it suggests no adjustment to defensive CR for those hit point ranges if the AC is 19. For example, if a creature has an effective average hit points of 400 and an AC of 18-20, that's a defensive CR of 20 - but if it had an AC of 25 with those 400 effective average hit points, that would actually be a defensive CR of 23.
#13 dave2008 Apr 29, 2015 10:25:17	Delong1522, here is an example from the MM useing the DMG guidelines:   Blue Dragon (per pg 90 MM and pg 274 of the DMG):   Defensive CR: 1st: HP481 = CR22 2nd AC 22>19 = +1 to CR Defensive CR = 23   Offensive CR: 1st: DPR 118-155 = CR 19-21 (depend on wether the breathweapon hits more than one target) 2nd: +16>+11 = +2 ro CR Offensive CR = 21-23 (22)   Final CR = 22.5 (23+22/2)   This seems about right to me.   Monster adjustment in 3 steps, use the:  Monster Statistic by Challenge Rating table: Move CR up or down based on AC relative to "effective" HP (defensive) Move CR up or down based on attack bonus relative to DPR (offensive) Average defensive and offensive CR to get total CR   I hope that helps
(Reply to #12) dave2008	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#15 CCS Apr 29, 2015 13:11:02	My method: Look at monster, decide what i want it to do, add/subtract whatever I feel like, roll inititive. I don't bother fiddling with the xp because I already know how much I'm going to give out in a session.
#16 delong1522 Apr 29, 2015 17:03:41	Thank you for all the responses. I'm going to attempt to grok the math behind all of this, as right now its giving me a headache.   However, it seems to me that determining the effective hit points and average damage appear to be more of an art than a science. It seems that a judgment call is required.   With that in mind, take a look at my suggested improvised solution for modifying challenge ratings. Please note, this is intended to work only for CRs of 1 and up. The system would not work for lower CRs.   Raising or Reducing CR by 1: +1/2 Attack bonus, Save DC, Armor Class +1-2 Hit Dice +5 average damage   Obviously this isn't ideal. However, I think it might be passable as long as you keep an upper limit in mind for AC and attack bonus, and those problems won't occur unless you go past say +5/-5 CR.   Thoughts?   :Goes back to reading over your responses to understand better:
#17 AaronOfBarbaria Apr 29, 2015 18:09:39	I think you are limiting yourself in trying to speed through the process (which is, in my experience, very quick once you get the hang of it) because you are insisting on raising all the relevant traits in a proportional pattern, when something as simple as "this orc war chief is wearing plate mail and using a greataxe +1" (which is +2 AC, +1 attack bonus, and +2 damage per round) is enough for it change from CR 4 to 5, and probably will feel like a reasonably tougher fight because of those changes as well.