EDIT: Final version released see new thread
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4234921
I have been working on a new ‘bottom up’ method of race and feat design. In this approach every trait is given a point value to create a race or feat you simply add up items until you reach the allowed number of points (48 for a race 16 for a feat).
Given the central importance of ability scores in 5th edition I assume all costs are relative to +1 in an ability score. To make the math easy +1 ability score=8pt to given sufficient granularity that decimals of a point are rarely needed. Next I am sifting the entire PHB for evidence. Evidence can be direct, such as what we know from the two versions of human, or determined by massive cross-referencing. In the cross referencing since we know the value of a race and a class and we know the value of some of the items within each race and feat we can solve the value of remaining items in ways that ensure all races and feats that share items meet their point total targets.
I have completed the four core races (and all their subraces) and all the feats. Here’s a taste of what I have so far.
I’d like to hear any comments/thoughts.
Items I know for sure from direct evidence :
Weapon proficiency may want a valuation based on whether it's a simple (low value) or martial (higher value) weapon.
Or maybe only value martial weapons, and call simple weapons fluff.
Krindi wrote:
Catodon wrote:
Reius wrote:
Catodon wrote:
No problem nice to have a sounding board
So I’ve finished adding the gnome and half-elf and I’m ready for a tentative reveal. The half elf is a mix of human and elf traits providing a really informative set of cross-referencing. This is what I discovered:
A skill is 8pt
A feat is 24pt (not 16pt as shown on the table)
The ability score adjustments and skills of the half elf come to 48pt. There is no wiggle-room on these. Therefore the other features are very low value (approaching zero). I guess the designers gave non-humans 48pt of core traits and three features that are less useful.
OK, that’s all the data collection done and 99% of the analysis. I’m now in a position where I can use this to create new races!
The two next tasks are to tidy up my tables to make them user-friendly and then write an article telling readers how to do it. This will be very very close to the secret design templates WOTC uses in-house. While you wait here is my first new race.
EDIT: updated on 21/12/14 to reflect current improved analysis
Thurse
Safety Stars *
‘Thurse’ is Old Anglo-Saxon for giant. This new demihuman is based on English tales of giants from the 11th-12th century. Thurse are Large but otherwise ordinary people. Giants sometimes emerge and interact with human society. Some even live among humans. There are even tales of giants who became knights and some say St Christopher was a giant.
Languages: Common and Giant
Strength+1 (P 2)
Traits:
Young Adult Giant: Medium Giant (P 0) Reach 5ft. Just as a 16 year old human can adventure but is not yet fully grown you are a young adult. At 1st level you are around a third taller and 2.5 times heavier than a human. You take up as much space as Large creature in combat (12 medium creatures can surround you) (! -1). You are treated as Large for the purposes of Grapples, Bush Rush etc (F 1). You can carry twice as much weight for your Strength (! 0). You have the Big Weapons 4 trait (! 0pt for creatures who become Large). A full grown thurse is twice as tall and eight times as heavy as humans. At 7th level you are full grown and gain the Large size (I 7).
Great Strides: Speed: 40 (X 1).
Ham-Fisted: 1d6 damage with unarmed attacks (F 1.5). Unarmed weapon proficiency (F 0.25)
Club Wielder: Proficient in Great club (F 0.25)
Lesser Traits:
Skin, Muscle and Bone: and resistance to Bludgeoning damage (X 0) and at 3rd level Natural AC12+Dex (I 0).
Big Weapons Traits
Large size is expensive and not available to 7th level. Fortunately like weaker versions of Large representing creatures who are Medium but big enough to be almost Large are cheaper and available at 1st level. These include the ability to carry twice as much (! 0pt), taking up as much space as a Large creature in combat (12 medium foes can surround you) (! -1pt), to be treated as Large for the purposes of grapples, bull rush and the like (F 1), and the ability to use versitile weapons (for the higher damage) or two handed weapons one handed (see below).
The following are a series the lower items include the those higher on the list so do not pay for each separately. A race that will be large at 7th can receive ‘big weapons 4’ at 1st level at no additional cost.
Big weapons 1: You are Medium with tool use 3 or above. You have sufficient bulk to wield a single versatile weapon with one hand and still do the damage for two handed use. This weapon is treated as a normal one handed weapon for determining what you may wield in the other hand, attacks etc. (I 1.25).
Big weapons 2: As per big weapons 1 except you may also wield a single two handed weapon with one hand. This weapon is treated as a normal one handed weapon for determining what you may wield in the other hand, attacks etc (I 1.75).
Big weapon 3: As per big weapons 1 and 2 except you may also wield two versatile weapons for the damage listed for two handed use for both. This trait does not grant additional attacks. These weapons are treated as a normal one handed weapons for determining attacks etc (I 2.5)
Big weapons 4: As per big weapons 1-3 except you may also wield two two handed weapons. This trait does not grant additional attacks. These weapons are treated as a normal one handed weapons for determining attacks etc (I 3.5)
Neat work! For consistency, I'd add that their natural armor is AC 11+DEX. Not sure if doing the inverse of being small is the best thing to do since we have no examples, but! Worth experimenting with (and maybe clarify that the race's reach is still 5ft)
Though I see light armor as being strictly better (or worth more on the table, as it were) than natural armor. Yes natural armor can't be "taken off" but it can't be enchanted, and you can't get a "studded" version of it either!
Timborama wrote:
Catodon wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Reius wrote:
I like the idea. Could see this as an easy way to create many different races for campaign and homebrew settings as well.
IDK if you are familiar with it, but look at GURPS as a possible inspiration source.
cowleymen wrote:
Core PHB races
These are not full statblocks are intended to show how the PHB races were created by WOTC with the 12pt+lesser traits skelton.
Human:6x+1 ability score (12). Lesser Trait: one language is free choice
Human Varient: 2x+1 ability scores (4), feat (6, a feat is worth only 4 at 4th level), skill 2 (based on skilled feat). Lesser Trait: one language is free choice.
Dwarf base: +2Con (4), Speed 25 (-4), Weapon proficiencies (Martial melee x2 (1.5) simple melee x2 (0.5). Lesser traits: Tool proficiency, darkvision 60’, resistance to poison, advantage on saves v. poison.
Hill Dwarf: Wis+1 (2), +1hp/level starting at first level (8, note hp seem to be worth more during the first tier of play).
Mountain Dwarf: +2Str (4), light armour proficiency (4), medium armour proficiency (2)
More to come when I have time.
Elf Base: Dex+2 (4), perception skill (2), trance (2). Lesser traits: Darkvision 60ft, Fey ancestry.
High Elf: Int+1 (2), weapon proficiencies (2x martial melee 1.5, 1x martial ranged 1, 1xsimple ranged 0.5) Lesser traits: cantrip, extra language.
Wood Elf: Wis+1 (2), weapon proficiencies (2x martial melee 1.5, 1x martial ranged 1, 1xsimple ranged 0.5). Lesser traits: speed 35ft, masks of the wild.
Dark Elf: Cha+1 (2), sunlight sensitivity (-0.5), Weapon proficiencies (2x martial melee 1.5, 1x martial ranged 1). Lesser traits: another 60ft of darkvision, cantrip, 2x spells each gained two levels after a wizard gains access to that spell level.
Halfling Base: Dex+2 (4), Small size (-2), Speed 25ft (-4), Lucky (4), Brave (4), Halfling Nimbleness (4).
Lightfoot Halfling: Cha+1 (2). Lesser trait: Naturally Stealthy
Stout Halfling: Con+1 (2). Lesser traits: Avantage on poison saves, resistance to poison.
Gnome Base: Int+2 (4), Small size (-2), Speed 25ft (-4), Advantage on Int saves (4), Advantage on Wis saves (4), Advantage on Cha saves (4). Lesser trait: darvision 60ft.
Forest Gnome: Dex+1 (2). Lesser traits: cantrip, speak with small beasts.
Rock Gnome: Con+1 (2). Lesser traits: artificers lore, tinker.
Last of the breakdowns of PHD races
Dragonborn: Str+2(4), Cha+1(2), Breath weapon (6). Lesser traits: damage resistance
Half Orc: Str+2 (4), Con+1(2), Intimidation skill (2), Relentless Endurance (2), Savage Attacks (2). Lesser Traits: Darkvision.
Tiefling: Int+1(2), Cha+2(4), 2nd level spell cast at 3rd level (6). Lesser Traits: Darkvision 60ft, resistance to fire damage, cantrip, 2nd level spell at 5th level.
Draft article at 9000 words. The final version will be about the same word count after edit/polish. Remember this will be distrubuted free when completed.
Here's a excerpt from the draft. I'd appreciate any feedback:
Types of evidence
There are several methods by which point values were set for traits and new rules created. From most certain to least these are:
Canon (C): this is something directly out of the core books. Not only are the individual traits items found in the PHB, they are also combined in ways seen in the PHB. In race creation, only the base races to which non-canon subraces are added, feats from the PHB, and ability score adjustments of ‘+2 to one and +1 to another’ are at this level.
Primary (P): the point cost of these items relative to +1 ability score can be gleaned directly from the PHB
Cross-referenced (X): these items are used multiple times in the PHB races and feats. They have been given the same value across multiple PHB races and/or feats all of which have been ‘solved’ to meet 12pt or 6pt respectively. An item which is only used once but is part of a race or class for which all other items are CPorX also is given this code.
Fit (F): After all the traits for which primary and cross-referencing determines values there are some PHB builds that still have two or more unique items. We know what the total of these items is but the relative wieghting of each is basically my best guess.
Inferred (I): This trait is not found in any of the PHB races or feats but has similarities to known items or has a price otherwise inferred from the PHB. Also at this level are new rules that do not break WOTC’s system but extend existing systems in new directions including
Novel (!): This trait is unlike any other and I cannot find good leads in the PHB to help me price it. It’s a guess.
Broken (B): This rule actually breaks the rules set by WOTC
Safety star rating
Some races will be built on solid evidence for others we are not as sure of the exact trait values. To help you judge races I have a star system. Like the hotel and car safety scoring systems, races range from 0 to *****. Additionally the star system could be used to communicate to players what races you are going to allow, you might for instance only allow races rated 4 to 5 stars. A race’s star rating is determined by the evidence level of its most uncertain trait. Finally, add a ½ if the race contains 6pt or more of P or C traits.
0 Flawed (B): This race actually breaks the rules set by WOTC’s race creation system. An example would be a winged elf which gets a flight speed at first level. Many fan created races on the net are at this rating.
* Experimental (!): this race, while I have done my best, contain one or more traits that are a products of intuition and/or uses experimental rules that are not part of WOTC’s system. It does not break the rules of WOTC’s system, but it might extend the system in new directions. Very few fans extend the game system in new directions so this level is actually rare among fan created races on the net.
** Playtest (I): This race contains uncertain traits. It does not break the rules of WOTC’s system, its just that there is a chance that point total might be out. Alternatively, the race uses rules from part 3 of this article, rules that extend PHB rules in new ways. At the moment this is the highest level a race with a LA can reach. Many better fan created races on the net would be at this level because they are largely products of intuition by a fan-base of a new system lacking extensive experience with game-play and without a understanding of the mathematical framework of the system.
*** Typical (F): This race contains at least one trait that we do not know the exact value of and does not break the rules of WOTC’s system. Conservative fan based races created by using PHB races as templates can reach this level. A deeper understanding of WOTC’s system obtained by reverse engineering allows greater design freedom while still remaining at this level. If not canonised by the PHB the builds for halflings, gnomes, and half-orcs would be at this level.
**** Safe (X): The races traits are all one for which we have very good evidence. If not canonised by the PHB Dwarves, elves, teiflings, and dragonborn would be at this level.
**** ½ Very Safe/Canon (P or C): The race no uncertain items, all the traits can be valued by direct statements in the PHB. Of all the PHB races only the Human reaches this level without canonisation by the PHB. By definition these races qualify for + ½ and therefore all end up with a final rating of *****.
This bit will appear in part 3 of the article wherein I go beyond the reverse engineered race creation system in the PHB and extend it. Races built using this will have a lower safety star rating.
Also on an unrelated note I have raised the price of Large to +4.
WOTC released a new elf subrace yesterday, the eldarin. I've had a first pass at incorporating the new data into the spreadsheet and it changes a few things mostly to do with 'corner cases' involving racial spells or super-human powers like flight. Why? the Eldarin is the first WOTC race with a non-offensive spell. The only way to reconcile Tiefling, Drow, and Eldarin is to recognise non-offensive spells are cheaper and are acquired earlier than offensive ones.
Fun with Fey!
Prompted by posts on forums I’ve taken a look at Tiny fey as PC’s. This also helps me check my method by creating creatures that are very different to the PHB races. My efforts to analyse WOTC’s races and reverse engineer their in-house system are detailed in my other thread.
The two fey are sprite and pixie. Pixie appeared as a PC race way back in 2e in the Complete Book of Humanoids. Sprites might look much like pixies but are actually a very different build.
*****
Let’s talk about sprites first, because they are the easiest. Sprites are described as more combative than pixies and fluff-wise seem a better fit to the adventuring life. Build-wise they have fewer powers than pixies and are basically miniaturized snipers.
SPRITE
Safety Stars: * ½ see my previous post in the race creation system thread.
Tiny (I -4) so the ‘I’ here is the evidence code and -4 is the points.
Str-4 {PC optional allowed range: 2-6}, Dex+4 {6-20}, Con+0 {3-20}, Int+2 {4-20}, Wis+2{4-20}, Cha+0{3-20}. All up (P 8pt)
Speed 10ft (! -12)
Fly 40ft at 6th level (I 3)
Wings act as featherfall at 1st (I 2)
Perception and stealth skills (P 4)
Weapon Profs longsword and shortbow (X 1.25). Note that fact that weapons are puny at this scale has been compensated for already in Tiny.
Heartsight at will at 1st level (I 2). It’s weaker than detect thoughts but ‘at will’.
Invisibility at will at 3rd level (X 2)
Total: 6.25, too low. So I’d add Exceptional individual: one free feat at 1st (P 6)=12.25, near enough to 12.
Lesser Traits: Extra language: Common, Elvish, Sylvan.
*********
Pixies are very unusual monsters for 5e. In this edition most monsters have fewer powers than previous editions but 5th pixies have a lot of different powers. The fluff about pixies describes them as non-violent which does not seem to be a good match to how most adventuring parties behave. Overall, they just don’t seem like a good race to use for a PC. Say you do anyway, well build-wise the pixie race cripples you as a combatant but adds a variety of defensive and non-lethal offensive magic powers that activate across the first two tiers of play.
PIXIE first pass.
If we price *everything* the monster version of the pixie gets and we grant the spells at the *earliest* level allowed we get this list:
Safety Stars * ½
Str-4 {1-4}, Dex+3 {6-20}, Con-1 {2-16}, Int+0 {3-20}, Wis+2 {4-20}, Cha+2 {5-20} points for ability scores (4).
At 1st level
Tiny (I -4)
1D4 racial hit die (3)
Speed 10 (! -12)
Use wings to featherfall at will (I 2). I add this to most flying races.
Perception and Stealth skills (P 4)
Magic Resistance (I 2)
Dancing lights 1/day (I 1)
Detect good and evil 1/day (I 1)
Detect thoughts 1/day (F 2)
Druidcraft at will (X 1)
Entangle 1/day (X 4)
Sleep 1/day (X 4)
At 3rd level
Disspell magic 1/day (F 2)
Fly spell 1/day (F 2)
Phantasmal Force 1/day (F 4)
At 5th level
Superior invisibility (I 2)
At 6th level
Fly speed 30ft (I 2)
At 7th
Confusion 1/day (I 4)
Polymorph 1/day (F4)
For PC’s 1/day powers are actually recharged after a short or long rest.
No lesser 0pt traits.
A total of 33pt giving a Level Adjustment (LA) of +1.75. We need to get this closer to 36pt (LA2), 24pt (LA1) or 12pt (LA0). I prefer lower LA’s so I’m going to do some cutting. I’ll start by delaying offensive spells by two character levels. This makes the spells underpowered by the time the character gets them and lowers the price. If I do this to all the offensive spells the point total is lowered to 13. Cut the Hit die and the total is 10. Too low. So I remove the -1Con.
Total is now 12pt. There is a second limit though, races at LA+0 have a maximum of 4 lesser traits (those worth 0pt). The pixie now has 5. I make the last pair of spells gained a choice.
PIXIE final
Safety Stars * ½
Str-4 {1-4}, Dex+3 {6-20}, Con+0 {2-16}, Int+0 {3-20}, Wis+2 {4-20}, Cha+2 {5-20} points for ability scores (6).
Languages: Sylvan, Common.
At 1st level
Tiny (I -4)
EDIT removed racial HD left in by mistake
Speed 10 (! -12)
Use wings to featherfall at will (I 2).
Perception and Stealth skills (P 4)
Magic Resistance (I 2)
Dancing lights 1/day (I 1)
Detect good and evil 1/day (I 1)
Detect thoughts 1/day (F 2)
Druidcraft at will (X 1)
At 3rd level
Disspell magic 1/day (F 2)
Entangle 1/day (X 0)
Fly spell 1/day (F 2)
Sleep 1/day (X 0)
At 5th level
Phantasmal Force 1/day (F 0)
Superior invisibility (I 2)
At 6th level
Fly speed 30ft (I 2)
At 9th
Choose one.
Confusion 1/day (I 0)
*Or*
Polymorph 1/day (F 0)
For PC’s 1/day powers are actually recharged after a short or long rest.
The pixie ends up with a lot of racial powers but most are defensive. Offensive powers are gained at a level where they have been superceded and are non-lethal. The pixie is really rubbish at physical combat and before 3rd level can’t even flee therefore compensatory defenses are needed for survival. At low level I suggest pixie PCs travel by piggy-back. ;)
Very interesting stuff. More when I have the time to sit down and really digest all of this information.
Thank you in advance for all of your hard work.
No problem, to be honest I'm doing this for my own use anyway so sharing it around is just good manners. 5th brought me back to D&D but all my 2e worlds and settings use non-standard PC races so what's a man to do? I could just try to eyeball each race case by case like everyone else but in a new system intuition will be out and this would take ages. Actually, 'digging in' an getting up to my elbows in the math is hard yakka but ultimately will be quicker and produce better results.
Work is busy right now so will be a while before a post the spreadsheet. Could do some portions though. Anyway waiting on DMG before finalising anything.
About a third of the way through tidying up the spreadsheet.
Here's a screenshot of the first 36 lines of 230+.
Its interesting what you're doing here. Hopefully the points system get you to a relative close value for balance and then DM eye comes into play to ensure that things work well for the campaign. No points system is ever going to be perfect but its definately a good place to start!
Totally agree about the referee. In my article I firmly put referee veto between the players and this. In fact I wouldn't let my players use it, this is a referee's tool.
With regard to balance I have incorporated a system to tell you how sure I am about my values (the Ev. collumn). Of the codes seen above X=cross-references (pretty sure), F=Fit somewhat sure it will be close to this value, I=infered evidence is less direct use with caution, !=best guess treat any use as a play test at best.
Speaking of infereed trait prices...
*Product recall: Large races*
So I've been playing around with average damage/round, fighter level 5th, and Large weapons. Looks like being Large is worth more than 4pt, probably around EDIT 7pt.
This means that most my Large builds are subtly overpowered (by less than a level's worth). The exception is the Drakon because they can't wield weapons.
Here is a screenshot of the revised Size prices. For the most part the upper end of the scale is related to damage and derived from SurfArcher's average damage curves for the four base classes. Tool use 1 & 2 cannot use weapons and so are not priced so heavily.
Question on lesser traits: how can darkvision and others traits worth Op for you ?
And did you consider races Weapons proficiencies points are overrated by the fact several classes get the same weapons at 1st level ?
I worked on a project to use monster as races
I intend to get a monster level by level, these "class levels" you referred to in Joining levels for powerful creatures post
http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4173376
I got D&D 3.x point-but source- yours is updated. Maybe you can evaluate my work so the races can get higher * rated levels ?
So: let's test my minotaur
A race worth 12p
A level 12p
as a LA 4, JL 5
My minotaur basic race : 12p
AC 14 8p
Gore damage 2d8 - I put it as d4 base, +5 dice increase, -1 for unarmed attack (my rule, as the creatre cannot use a d8 weapon instead ) = 8p
charge: Powerful ability worth 8p
4 HD d10 26p
50p of 48 expected - quite accurate;
as a LA 3 : 40p of 36- less accurate- I think your underrate the 4th level feat and +2 abilities with only 4p.
Like you I started out assigning points to lesser traits but as I analysed data from the PHB and assigned known values the points left over for these 'lesser traits' shrank and shrank until it reached zero. The average number of lesser traits for a PHB race is 2. So as a rough limit use 4 or less lesser traits. Now I use 1 ability score = 2pt. If the WOTC designers might have more 'grainyness'. If they assign 1ability score =16pt for example then this *might* allow simultainious solution of all canon races while providing a (very low) pt value for lesser traits. You are welcome to try this at home ;) Next post minotaur.
Dwarves part 2
Yes dwarven toughness is a big headache. I have spent hours failing to solve this. The problem comes about because the evidence from WOTC is inconsistent. There is either canon evidence or multiple lines of evidence for all dwarf traits for both subraces except Tool Proficiency and Dwarven Toughness. You can’t shift 5 points from Dwarven Toughness to make it worth half as much as the toughness feat without making the Mountain Dwarf worth more than 12 (not allowed). So a HP from a feat is worth less than a HP from a race. This is a nonsense solution but the only one that works. I give up.
Look at the first few lines of the ‘Healing HD & HP’ section of the ‘traits’ tab and you can see that not all hp are valued equally.
Catodon wrote:
EmpactWB wrote:
With the Elemental Evil Player’s Companion (EEPC) races I’m avoiding re-pricing anything if I can. Why? Well I already have pretty good prices for most traits so I don’t want to revisit traits where a lot of thinking about price and evidence collection has already been done; I might stuff it up. Secondly, any trait re-pricing will set off cascades to changes to both the sheet and the article and my time is limited.
Here is my breakdown of the EEPC Aarakocra.
*** ½
Dex+2 [P 4], Wis+1 [P 2].
Traits: Unarmed proficiency [X 0.25], Talons 1d4 [X 1] (note this traits has been promoted from ‘F’ to ‘X’), Land speed 25 [X -4]. Subtotal 3.25 with ability scores
Flight: For this breakdown I have separated flight from the other traits to help everyone see how I priced it. Since a canon race is worth exactly 12, flight as a whole must be worth a whopping 8.75! I have gone further and broken this down into component traits. Speed 50 [F 2] (I have kept the calculated price for speed 50 but now that a canon race has it we know the value is less than 8.75 so the evidence level is upgraded from ! to Fit, ‘F’). So flight at 1st level and no Heavy/Medium armour while flying must be worth 6.75 in total. Again the evidence level will be ‘F’ because no other races have these traits. I priced the ‘cannot fly in Heavy/Medium armour as the inverse of Heavy Armour prof on the assumption that the PC will want the have the flight option most of the time [F -4]. So by the process of elimination flight at 1st is worth [F 10.75]!
Lesser Traits: one extra language (over the two held by most races).
OK a question for you?
With the addition of a flying canon race should I move all the movement traits (Swim speed, burrow speed etc.) to Part 2?
If I did I would include an instruction to include a warning a bit like the one the Aarakocra has in the EEPC.
“being able to fly at high speed starting at 1st level is exceptionally effective in certain circumstances and exceedingly dangerous in other . As a result, playing an aaakocra requires special consideration by our DM.”
Catodon wrote:
All of the Svirfneblin traits except Stone Camouflage have been assigned previously.
INT+2 (P 4), Dex+1 (P 2), Small (X -2), Speed 25 (X -4), Gnome Cunning (F 9). Subtotal: 9
3 Lesser Traits: Extra Language (three languages), and Superior Darkvision (which) is worth two lesser traits.
Based on the above Stone Camouflage should be worth (F 3).
Burrowing
An aside: given its utility Burrow has been re-valued.
Burrow 30 or under at 1st (! 4)
Burrow 30 or under at 5th (! 2)
Burrow 30 or under at 7th (! 0).
Goliath
OK what about the Goliath?
There are only two new traits. Mountain Born and Stone’s Endurance. Here’s the break down:
STR+2(P 4), CON+1(P 2), Athletics (P 2),
Powerful build is the same as the double carrying capacity trait we have been using for some time. The price is based on a breakdown of Large (F 0).
Subtotal 8pt.
Therefore:
*the sum of Mountain Born and Stone’s Endurance must be 4pt (12-8)
*Stone’s endurance is similar to 1d12HD but you will rarely get the full HP equivalent so must be worth less than a d12 HD, 8pt.
These two traits have ‘F’ level evidence and a number of solutions will fit within the limits above. Mountain Born is only useful in specific circumstances and is not a combat trait. Stone’s Endurance looks very useful in combat. Therefore I chose Mountain born (F 0) and Stone’s Endurance (F 4).
Total 12pt and two lesser traits.
Using this solution Stone’s endurance is worth half as much as a d12 HD. This enables us to price versions of Stone’s Endurance using different die types.
Progress Update
I have analysed and integrated most of the Elemental Evil player races into the spreadsheet and articles. The aarakocra was a bit of a headache but is due and all but two of the others just fell-out easily being able to price a 12pt without major changes. The two that are left are the Water and Fire Gensai.
Water: Using existing costs the water gensai adds up to 12 IF swim speed 30 is a 0pt lesser trait! THis of course changes all the example races I have created with a swim speed. This is an easy problem but one that will take time to work through.
Fire: Something is just not adding up here. The race is entirely made up of traits already rated X or P and yet only adds up to 8. This is especially wierd given how easily the other races added up to 12. It has to be one of the X traits is out. Some combination of one or more of these needs to be changed resistance to fire damage, cantrip, and/or the first level offensive spell at 3rd level. As X traits any change could set of a cascade of minor changes.
Question
Is there something special about Fire damage? If so how wuold it affect Fire Resistance and fire based breath weapons and the like?
If I don't change any of my prices but price Burning Hands as a 'damaging power' rather than a spell the total is 11.75! Pretty damn close. So a few more tweaks and I should be able to account for Fire Gensai.
Whoops, I forgot to reply to this.
Catodon wrote:
To do
Note: canon races that contain damaging power/spell traits: Dragonborn, Fire Gensai, Tiefling, High elf (cantrips)
Spell costs to have three kinds: non-combat, combat related, damaging power
Once per day damaging powers level allowed is halved (round down)
Damaging powers LA0 for DPR7.5 and lower are out. Fix these by replacing price for 7.5 with 4 and replacing reference in formulae for price to reference this 4 instead of dragonborn 6. Etc for races above
Fix range prices for damaging powers using cantrips as a rossetta stone. Replace 4 & 6 etc for Fire and dragonborn and other races above with price minus range.
Check prices all canon races on list from first step again! Dragonborn, Fire Gensai, Tiefling, High elf (cantrips)
Finish all the rule and evidence references on the sheet.
Finished analysis of the new races and creation of the new method of dealing with damaging powers and damaging spells.
To do:
Tidy up current draft of sheet and article
Update example races that have damaging powers
Get new drafts to you guys!
Add evidence and references to sheet
Release final version!
Final Drafts!
That's right my analysis of the PHB, DMG, and Elemental Evil Player's Companion is done. Final draft versions of both the article and the Excel sheet are available at the links below. The article ends with finalised versions of many of the races discussed in this thread.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnn83m1qy4hxsex/5e%20unusual%20races%20point%20build%205%20DRAFT.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dug4ja64ognqxb3/5e%20Design%2013%20DRAFT.xlsx?dl=0
To do:
(Listen to feedback)
Add evidence and references to sheet
Release final version
Race: Homunculus
Homunculus Traits
Ability Score Increases: +1 to constitution
Age: Homunculus were made to be everlasting, thus regardless homunculi age is normally determined by how long they have been active but their appearance age wise is based upon what their creator wanted.
Alignment: Similar to Humans, Homunculi can come in any form of alignment as the soul powering them is what determines it.
Size: Also like humans they vary in height and weight from but with even more variety, however they overall remain medium in size.
Speed: Base walking speed is 30ft
Language: Speak, read and write common and one extra language of choice as a homunculus can be infused with the knowledge or the memory of the language within the Soul-core can sometimes remain intact.
Artificial Being: As Homunculus are considered constructs powered by a magically enhanced soul-core they don't need to eat or breathe, trance for 4 hours per day instead of sleeping for 8 hours for the same effect, immune to disease.
Trance state semi-conscious and start seeing memories from your past, some of which may have been lost/forgotten by you.
Superior Body: Since homunculus are artificially created through means of magical and alchemy the creators can change and modify the body as they see fit before the soul-core is imbedded bringing the homunculus to life. Choose two of the 4 body modifications. [The choices are all about (4.5) in score since EmpactWB informed me my base so far is only worth (3) and the base is a total of (12)]
1. Living Weapon: +1 to strength, you now have a “Natural Weapon” one of your limbs can becomes a weapon with which you are automatically proficient with. The weapon does either Slashing, Piercing or Bludgeon damage, rolls a 1d10 plus a strength modifier.
2. High Density Skin: +1 to Constitution and..... (Need help here)
- The bonus health was originally +1 to armor class but I realized it made them into a superior warforged so wanted the extra armor to belong to them but I was told that it is a (3) which would make this choice too high when compared to the others that are at 4.5.
- Also was considering something similar to the Goliath in a move that reduces a damage source once per trance though as EmpactWB told me it seems it would need to be a 1d6 as it is (2) since a d12 is (4) then to even it out make the immune to acid due to their dense skin.
- Also I was wondering what a base increase to health by 1 or 2 would count as.
3. Enhanced Physique: +1 to Dexterity, Your base movement is 35ft walking and base climbing and swimming is set to 20ft
4. Inscribed Mind: +1 to intelligence, proficiency in one skill of your choice you also get +1 added to your initiative.
So I'm new to DnD and I wanted to make my first character a warforged, but for several days I couldn't find any official source for a 5e version so I ended up trying to make my own "living construct" being and after several days of working on it I finally did find the official 5e Warforged. At that point however had put in so muhc work I wanted to finish my work so I've been poking around here to get some more feedback on my versatile race and I've gotten a lot of good information from EmpactWB on your whole numbers system which was what I was sort of formulating in my head when first making it but I see you've done all the truely indepth work.
So just checking this bit only…
+1Con (2pt)
Stone’s Endurance 1d6+CON (2pt)
Damage immunity (one type) (0.5pt)
Total 4.5pt.
So what about a couple of health? So you mean hit points?
Cost of a single hit point at first level (only) 1.817pt, cost for 2HP at first level 3.633pt.
These are like the dwarf trait except only apply to 1st level. Hit points gained at 4th level or higher are worth less.
I generally allow created races to be within 11.5 to 12.5 if LA0, trying to be exactly 12 can be the road to madness.
Finally, I suggest you spend a bit of time looking over the excel sheet and put together the race the way you want it. I offer advice sometimes but ultimately I want to give people the tools that should have been in the DMG so they can create with way less chance of breaking their game. Go nuts!
Catodon wrote:
Catodon wrote:
If the monster version has one or more ability scores over 20 allowing the Ability Score Improvement as alternative to epic boons for these races is recommended, at least until the PC has a score one higher than the monster (DMG230).
Straight up monster style magic resistance (all saves v. magic)is given two prices in two places on the sheet, in one place it is 3pt, then further down it is rated 4pt. Both are rated 'I' infered. I realise now that both are based on other resistance to spells type traits in feats but are inconsistent with how I priced the gnome.
Resistant to magic for saves with one ability score F 3. Gnome Cunning is three of these.
Magic resistance is essentially a double strength Gnome Cunning so should be more like 18pt at first level, hmmm will think about this.
Thanks for this, use is the only way to dig up these remaining outliers. I'm just one (busy) guy I'm going to miss the occassional issue.
I'll look at the other options as time permits.
- +1 to Armor Class with +1Con (5pt)
I don't this an undiluted +1AC is on my sheet. That said given items like If wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand +1AC and Natural armour 11+Dex are both worth 2pt. An unconditional +1 will probably be worth more than this so 3pt seems like a reasonable value at this point.
Catodon wrote:
*able to roll a 1d6 ... And immune to poison
the given price covers immunity to poison damage but not the poisoned condition. Condition immunities cost 1pt per condition.
Note: my computer died on Friday morning so currently posting from phone
Catodon wrote:
- Unarmored Defense: When not wearing armor, AC is 10 + dex modifier + con modifier, immunity to Poison, Extreme heat and Cold Conditions (4.5pt I think if I'm seeing "conditions" right
UNarmoured defense (I 1) but not how this interacts with class features providing the same benefit (eg. the Barabarian) it doe not 'stack'. Immunity to poison this is actually given in the DMG as an example of how immunities should be intuative and obvious eg constructs are immune to poison (Damage immunity poison ! 0.5 but I'm sure you would also want condition immunity 'poisoned' (I 0)). you are not reading 'conditions' right. Conditions referes to the game effects on characters given in Appendix A of the PHB. That said if these refer to weather (only) and not damaging spells then 0pt is probbly OK (a guess). +1Con (P 2). TOTAL: 3.5
Catodon wrote:
· Relentless Endurance and immunity to acid. (4.5pt)
Relentless Endurance (F 2). Immunity to acid (! 0.5). Con +1 (P 2). Total 4.5pt. Note though the ! rating on immunity to acid. One immunity is probably worth more than a damage resistance (type) but how much more? We know one immunity has no effect on a Monster’s challenge (this would normally be 0pt) and though PCs and monsters are designed for different purposes damage immunity to one damage type is not likely to be worth much. Note however, taking our cue from monster design three or more of this trait is much more useful and is priced much higher than simply adding single immunities together.
Catodon wrote:
C
Ginjiro wrote:
The final design is up to you but here's an idea...
Con+2 (P 2)
Alchemical Clay: Unarmoured defense (Con) (I 1)
Quicksilver blood: Immune to poison damage (! 0.5) and the poisoned condition (I 0)
Hardened fists: Unarmed (X 1)
Total 4.5 for this bit.
Don't you mean Con+1?
Also what does Unarmed mean exactly again?
Other then those I think those seem awesome to be put together.
Yep my bad: con+1 (2) and unarmed attacks do 1d4 bludgeoning (1)
Troll, a LA10/JL11 monster (125 points)
11 points per level , the first level is a core PHB class which points are not included here
st +3, co +4 (14)
Natural AC 4 (8)
Regeneration 10 (acid/fire restriction) (22)
Keen smell (1)
fighting style: 2 weapons-based, extra bite attack - claws damage 2d6 at 9th level , Bite damage d6 (4)
Extra attack (melee only, delayed) (4)
large (7)
10 d10 (65)
with my level by level construct
Medium giant, mostly chaotic evil (large at 7th level)
Speed 30 ft.
No stats adjustment at base level
Senses Darkvision 60ft
Languages Giant and Common
Keen Smell. The troll has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell. (1)
Regeneration. The troll regains 2 hit point at the start of its turn. If the troll takes acid or fire damage, this trait doesn't function at the start of the troll's next turn. The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 hit points and doesn't regenerate. (11)
Monster class levels:
A Troll gets a tougher hide, better regeneration and bigger natural weapons as a mutation. The more they regenerate, the more they are tougher.
Outsider or soldier background is appropriate, monk and barbarian are the best multiclasses for a troll.
Good saves: strength and constitution, 2 skills, all simple weapons
level cost: average of 11p. adjustment are shown below per level
Note: The first level is a PHB core class. Multiclass to monster classes level get nom restrictions.
1 AC 2 (4), claw damage d4 (2), 11.5p
2 Troll fighting style (claw/bite) (4), bite attack d4 (0), regeneration 3 (2), 11.5p
3 Regeneration 4 (1), natural armor raise to +3 (2) ST +1 (2) 10.5p
4 Regeneration 6 (3), claws damage raise to d6 (0) , ac +4 (2) 10.5p
5 Regeneration 7 (1), ability increase (4) , claws damage raise to d10 (1), 11.5p
6 Regeneration 10 (4), claw damage 2d6 (0), bite attack raised to d6 (0) 9.5p
7 large (7), retroactive HD from d8 to d10 (6), 19.5p
8 ability increase (4) 10.5p
9 extra attack, melee only (4, delayed) 10.5p
10 Co +2 (4) 10.5p
notes:
Fighting style: Troll
- extra attack with "light" natural weapon as the troll mouth
- free grapple feat
- these benefits needs all limbs free.
Regen justification: Being able to regenerate at the end of fight is worthing 8p (2 feats)
healer feat and durable are better choice at low levels (and cheaper) but this regenaration is better after 7th level or so. Regen render healing hit dice worthless, unless in a constant acid or fire environment, which is quite rare.
Regen cost 1.4p per 1 hp healed per round, with acid/fire limitation reducing the cost by 25%. Its cost is 3* toughness feat or 6 HP/level. . (raise cost for Oni`s regen). Let`s assume a typical 5 rounds combat and a few combats a day, the regeneration doesn`t worth the cost. But with a campaign with a high frequency of combat, it rocks.
These monster classes have an innate penalty: A troll must multiclass to get a regular class, with the usual restrictions.
I agree that the troll natural armor/weapons cost should be low since they cannot get full usage of larger weapons while unarmed and get armor as per regular races, but the build is powerful for a monk …
Doppelganger, medium monstrosity AL 4, JL 5 56p
Dx +2, Ch +1 (6)
Shapechanger (6)
Read thoughs (3)
Condition Immunities: charmed (1)
Detects thoughs at will (8)
martial arts (4)
ambusher (2)
surprise attack +3d6 (3)
Extra damage for slam 1d4 to d6 (1)
4 d8 (22)
Minor traits: Darkvision 60'
... and with my level by level progression
Abilities modifiers: Dx +1 (2)
Racial Features (see MM p82):
Shapechanger Better than disguise self spell as it cannot be dispelled and there is no investigation check since the disguise is perfect. Objects are not modified. (6, as warlock invocation worths 4 points)
-Read Thoughs Gives advantage on insight and charisma checks (3)
Condition Immunities: charmed (1)
Minor traits: Darkvision 60' ,
Doppelganger Racial Class Features
levels
1 Martial arts (4); surprise attack +1d6 (bonus damage on surprise) (1); natural weapon Slam d6 bludgeon damage (1, only while in natural form -50%), ) 11.5
2 Ambusher : advantage on surprise (2); Surprise attack: +3d6 (2), Detect thoughs once a day (2) 11.5
3 Detect thoughs once before a short rest (2), Detect thoughs at will (4) 13.5
4 Abilities increase (4), 9.5
and my minotaur as a large creature...
The Minotaur Large monstruosity (LA7,JL 8) 88p
St +3, Co +3, Ws +1 (14)
Ac 14 (8)
Gore damage 2d8 (4.5 downgrade to 0, large)
Charge: Powerful ability worth (4.5)
Labyrinthine Recall (! Lesser trait)
Reckless (2)
Prof. Great Axe (X 0.75)
Darkvision 60ft (X lesser trait)
Perception skill (P 2)
Large (5)* gore was not raised to 2d10
Extra Attack (8)
7 Hd10 (45.5)
and level by level…
Minotaur Traits
ST +1, Co +1 (4)
Age- The Minotaur can live up to one hundred years of age.
Average Height-The minotaur's average height is seven to seven and a half foot tall.
Average Weight-The average weight for a minotaur is three hundred to three hundred fifty pounds.
Size. medium
Speed-Base walking speed is thirty feet.
Alignment-The minotaur is primarily evil and worships the Horned King, Baphomet.
Languages-The minotaur can speak both Common and Abyssal.
Darkvision-The minotaur can see in darkness as if it were daylight up to
sixty feet. (0)
Horns: 1d4 piercing and slashing unarmed attack (1)
Labyrinthine Recall-The minotaur can perfectly recall any path it has traveled in its lair or while traveling underground. (0)
Minotaur Proficiencies-The minotaur is proficient with all axes and with Perception skill (2.75)
Reckless-At the start of your turn, the minotaur can gain advantage on all melee attack rolls it makes during that turn, however, all attack rolls against the minotaur also have advantage until the start of its next turn. (2)
Natural Armor 1 (2)
Minotaur Racial Class
Features (MM p 223)
levels
1 Gore damage 1d8 (.5) , Natural Armor +2 (2) (8)
2 Gore damage 2d6 (.5), st +1 (2) (8)
3 Gore damage 2d8 (.5) , Charge (4) , (10)
4 Ability increase, Natural Armor +3 (2) (11.5)
5 second attack (8) (13.5)
6 ac +4 (2), co +1 (2) (9.5)
7 Large (7-4.5=2.5), retroactive HD from d8 to d10 (15)
Charge: Charge. If the minotaur moves at least 10 feet straight toward a target and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, the attack is automatic critical. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 14 Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 10 feet away and knocked prone.
This point system is something that I was thinking about today. But instead of using it to build characters. I am a DM and my custom campaign is running away from me. Creating the right monsters for this campaign is VERY important, as well as creating the right spells and items.
A point value system to build items, spells, and monsters would be a great method to implement in a future edition of the DMG or, better yet, a supplemental piece.
For example, each aspect of creating a spell would increase it's point value: damage, duration, concentration, affects, STs, and components needed means that this spell is worth ### points and is considered a level # spell.
Likewise, items endowed with magical abilities, bonuses, affects, amount of charges, rarity, and cost to purchase would end up costing
Monster: *This is my biggest challenge* Based on Armor used/avail (or just AC), weapon(s) wielding, Magic casting level, spells available as "at wills," multi-attack, special abilities, increases in abilities, racial traits, proficiency level desired, damage desired, etc. All of these unique additions would each have a point value attached to them to help determine what the monsters/NPCs CR is.
Catodon wrote:
Natural Weapons: this interpretation has come up in the forums when people discuss the Unearthed Arcana Krynn Minotaur and monk. My take is simple, as a real human your fist is a Natural Weapon so is your foot and your bite. Natural weapons use the unarmed proficiency. If you don't like that you could instead rule that Natural Weapons are thier own proficiencies (simple) and exchange 'Unarmed proficiency' for 'Hardened Fists proficiency' or whatever the Natrual Weapon is.
DCs of racial traits
For PC races the DCs associated with traits should be 8+Prof+ability modifier. Proficiency bonus for monsters is given on DMG274 use this to figure out which of the ability scores was used initially. Subtract (8+Proficiency bonus) from the monster versions DC to determine the value of the ability modifier. Where two or more could have been used pick one that makes sense, for example Intelligence for a mental attack.
This adjustment needs to be made to my example races.
Cool stuff. Thanks for these. Could you explain how you build level one? This is an odd level as it gives base features such as proficiencies etc. and is probably worth more than 12pt.
It is true that classes level 1 worth 18-21.5 points (see my table below). My 1st levels monsters have 13.5 points. But there are a lot of armor and weapons proficiencies associated with level 1 fighting classes, and spells from casters classes taken at, say charaxcter level 11 are ... level 1 spell, quite weak..... My monsters still get full benefits (and restrictions) from multiclassing to a regular class. If their level 1 seems underpowered, maybe regular classes should get no multiclassing restrictions (ex: one level skill for a rogue). Playtesting may sort it out...
PHB classes analysis
First 5 levels
Rogue 1.5+2+8+4+-.5+5.5=21.5/11.5/13.5/9.5/11.5 = 67.5
Fighter 4+6+3+2+6.5=21.5/9.5/10.5/10.5/14.5= 65.5
Mage 3+4+2+4+2+2 +1/level= 18/10/12/9/13 = 62
Sorcerer 4+4+6+4 = 18/10/11/8/12 = 61
Warlock 4+2+1+5.5 +1/level = 13.5/13.5/13.5/10.5/12.5 = 62
Ranger 4+4+3+2+2+6.5 = 21.5/12.5/13/10.5/14.5 = 70
Paladin 4+6+3+1+ 6.5+1/level = 21.5/15.5/13.5/11.5/19 = 70.5
Barbarian 4+4+2+4+7.5 = 21.5/11.5/11.5/10.5/15.5 = 69.5
Monk 1+4+4+6.5 = 15.5/10.5/13.5/11.5/17 = 68
Bard 2+4+1.5+2+3+5.5= 18/13.5/13.5/11.5/13.5 = 69.5
Cleric 4+3+4+5 (average religion)+5.5 = 21.5/11.5/10.5/9.5/12 = 65
Druid 2+4+4+2+0.5+5.5 = 18/11.5/11.5/11.5/14/10.5 = 66
Fighting classes start with 21.5, spellcasting 18. Monk and warlock are exception, with lower total at level 1. The level 1 costs are detailed (last one is the hit dice). Try to guess what is what :-).
Then level 2, etc are separated with a \. +1/level are for spell recovery (mage, warlock) and paladin lay on hands where an ability clearly cost x per level. Mages are weaker. I hope the second tier grants better abilities, but i should not analyse it, since multiclassing people will check first the first 5 levels to make their decision...
But the extra points came form weapon and armor proficiencies. Mages and sorcerers are near the 60 points objective. I think it is normal mages have no tarde-off for the lostg armor/weapons proficiencies because they just don't need them. Warlock invocations at 4 points is maybe too much, since maybe one invocation is prime and the others worth less to warlock... 4 for the first, 2 for the others. It means that 12 points is too low for a level... .. I should maybe buff my race classes or at least give free armor/weapon proficiencies.
The lesser traits seems to be the proficiencies, not the darkvision and alike. I already deduct it in my previous basic races post on the other thread.
That's really interesting, as I suspected the classes probably have some variability in thier point values. I think the gap 61-70.5 is probably too large for my appraoch to races (solve so that all are worth exactly the same) is unlikely to be useful here. I like your approach of keeping the monster class 1st level worth close to 12 (13.5) then removing the usual multiclassing limits but I wonder if this will leave them fatally underpowered at tier one. Like you said playtesting will let you know.
I quantified the classes points for tier 2 (fighter and wizard)
Fighter 4+6+3+2+6.5=21.5/9.5/10.5/10.5/14.5/10.5/8.5/10.5/8.5/9.5= 65.5 level 5 ; 115 level 10
Wizard 3+4+2+4+2+2 +1/level= 18/10/12/9/13/9/9/11/11/12= 62 level 5 and 114 level 10
As you can see, the fighter is now under the 12 points/level and the mage catch up. Like in older editions, it proofs a mage is weak at low levels and better than a warrior at high levels. Nothing new, I just tested it....
It means also I just have to buff tier 1 monsters and nerf tier 2... It is difficult for large monsters because of the huge cost of level 7...
tier 3 and 4
fighter: 12.5/10.5/8.5/10.5/10.5/10.5/11.5/10.5/10.5/12.5
wizard 11/11/11/10/11/11/11/11/12/13
confirms it. It also mean the average is 11 a level, not 12 at high levels...
Looking at your results I'm considering changing my LA system to 10.5pt per LA (see below). This would include LA1 as my races always get at least one level in in a cannon class. So my 'to do' list is now: 1) finish the referencing, 2) check to see if your solution for the PHB classes can also produce a solution that solves all feats, DMG races, and EEPC races, 3) Change to 1LA=11pt, 4)ensure article including examples are updated to match the changes in the math.
I have done some tinkering using your numbers for points for class levels. I have figured the average points per level NOT including first level.
For all classes just looking at levels 2-4th the average pt/lvl is 11.73 (say 11.75 if you want). Though the range is large (10.125-13.125)
However, just looking at your fighter and wizard levels 2-20 the average falls to 10.5.
Humm...Troubling.
I agree it should be 11 points,but since i got strong evidence of a 21.5 points for 1st level, i think 12 points average is fair overall. It is a lower * result anyway and it is impossible de be on par with cannon classes without official WOTC method...
As a scientific, don`t forget my sampling is too small, as I just quantify champion fighter and wizard up to 20th. Wizard may quantify more, as the number of known spell and rituals depend on DM more than anything else. Wizards are Novas, fighters stable and predictable...
I put 3 points for fighter style and 8 for extra attack at 5th level and 6p at 11 and 18th. You should quantify it better. i just assume one "warrior" can hit 50% of the time at 5th level with a 12p damage (so 6p) vs the cost of dual-weapon fighting feat+fighting style. This one is a educated guess more than mathematical calculation ...
So, you got a good list of features as a point of comparaison but it would be a HUGE work to really quantify with precision everything...
Frankly, i'll rather use no LA monsters if i could ... This is why I created a level 0 monster even for a dragon!.. for a lower LA one like doppleganger, i`ll prefer the basic monster with rogue class, more interesting... We can also postpone abilities to the future levels as per the pixie you created. It is impossible for medusa, troll, etc. Dragon breath, being large, petrification and regeneration are just too costly an ability... I think my level by level is still a good rule but it will be always a lower * monster- too much uncertaincy.
I will toss things around in my head a bit more before commoitting to changing the LA=12pt. This would be a huge change. I should not consider the 1st level =21.5pt thing for my method as following my rules all PCs will begin with at least one level (1st) in a cannon class anyway. I agree with all your points about your analysis having likely pricing errors, being incomplete etc but this is more class analysis than I have done and the eveidence you have collected should now be considered. You are right in that a complete analysis is a huge amount of work (about the same as analysing 240 races) and therefore I'm just not going to do it.
So looking at your numbers a staggered system might be in order. Without level 1 tier one (levels 2-4th) average 11pt. While by the end of all other tiers the average is 10.5
I too prefer avoiding LA nonsense and some games do this well, (Fantasy Craft, GURPS, Legends of Anglere spring to mind). I like 5e but it is not non-human friendly. Have you seen my LA0 dragon?
Drakon
*½ Large dragon. Tool Use 2 (I -3.25). They range from horse-sized to as big as a rhinoceros.
No ability score adjustments. As a Large creature you can still lift and carry more. Speed 30ft.
Languages: Draconic, Common.
Traits: Breath Weapon: choose one as described for Dragonborn (P 6). Bite reach 10ft & Claw reach 5ft: 2d6 piercing 2d4 slashing respectively, but no extra attacks (! 4.5). Unarmed Proficiency (F 0.25). Poor Flyer: at 1st level wings act as per the feather fall spell self only at will (I 2), at 6th level gains a flying speed of 40ft (I 3). Total 12.5
Lesser Traits: Draconic resistance: damage resistance to match breath weapon as per dragonborn. Darkvision 60ft (X 0). Scales provide resistance to Slashing damage. At 5th level gains Blindsight 30ft (I 0).
Notes: This new kind of dragon is a race playable from 1st level with the iconic size, scales, wings, bite, and breath weapon expected for dragons. Drakon is ancient Greek for dragon. The drakon presented here resembles eariler tales of the Middle Ages before the power bloat of modern dragons.
Catodon wrote:
About the Drakon: My design brief was to give the players a race with all the classic mythological features of a dragon: fire, flight, size, bite, and armoured hide.
I'm happy with Large, it provides almost nothing but trouble if your race does not have hands and therefore can't wield larger weapons. As for wrymlings being medium, well I just hate the idea of a PC not begining as an adult if it can be helped and don't think MM wrymlings being Medium is much of an argument. Yeh, fantasy allows wierdness and even I border on allowing young dragons because they are like reptiles so maybe are independent early, but I'd rather avoid it. That said please adjust to taste for use at your own table.
I think your point about flying is spot on, how about Dex-1 and Int-1?
Drakon monk, definately, would not upgrade the natural attacks as you point out this is overpowered. I'd say the monk can kick, tailslap, or wingbuffet for the usual monk damage, yeh your claws are better but the same can be said for a human monk with a spear.
EDIT: how about this wording..."The monk martial arts damage does not add to natural attacks. It only applies to unarmed strikes (PHB149) or natural weapons that do bludgeoning damage. In all cases either the martial arts damage or the normal damage applies, whichever is higher. Do not add them. Depending on your race ‘unarmed strike (PHB149) could include punches, kicks, tail-slaps, wing buffets, or similar unarmed attacks for which no damage is given in the race description."
LA: With regard to this I am only considering changing the pt values for LAs. All the trait prices will remain as is. The main source of work will be re-jigging the races that have LA to match the new LA pt allowances. This will be fiddly, time consuming, but not difficult. It will taken even longer because my free time is very limited. If we leave LA=12pt then races will be about +15% too powerful this is like having an extra level worth of power at LA7 and equal to two extra levels by LA14. I think this will be noticable and enough that those playing PHB races will cry foul.
The natural AC prices are bsed off proficiency costs including the Medium Armour in the dwarf. Not stacking and not being compensated occurs with a lot of canon race/class/feat/multiclass combinations. Some examples: elf weapon profs, dwarf medium armour. The point of these racial abilities is that they allow you to step outside of class restrictions if you want such as a Dwarf Wizard in Medium Armour, or an Elf monk with a longbow. My price is based on abilities that can double-up and therefore the doubling up has been accounted for. As an aside the 'doubling up' problem is probably unavoidable once WOTC decided stick with prebuilt races and classes rather than a GURPS style point-buy character generation method.
but again consider the troll Wizard who with DEX could have a higher armour than a human fighter! Surely, that's an argument for a high cost? A human varient or dwarf wizard could get into heavy armour by level 4 but that's as close as a canon Wizard can get. EDIT: the other thing is as rated 'I the point values for natural AC are infered from other similar traits, there are no canon examples to price these from. What I have is of course uncertain and if you go beyond inference to judgement you may or may not be closer to WOTCs secret value, Finally what you do at your table, well that's none of my damn business.
I updated all my races with the 11/level cost.
New wotc release: See phb errata. No more .25 cost for unarmed proficiency. ---------------------------------------------
How much should cost large at 7th level for a level0 race (for an ogre) ?
7p should be fine with negative intelligence granting extra points.... ST and CO are capped to 20, so it will not unbalance the game as an extra dice of damage will at 1st level. On paper, half-ogre worth 12.5 and ogres 11.75p- but the ogre player will get easily a 20 in St...
Ogre
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 4, and Constitution score increases by 1. The Intelligence is reduced by 3. (4)
Age. Ogres mature a little faster than humans, reaching adulthood around age 14. Rarely living pass the age of 75.
Size. Medium. Large at 7th level. Ogres are larger and bulkier then a human, and they can range from 7-9 ft tall and weigh from 350-600 Pounds. Due to the large size, it is hard to come by any armor, nor find people willing to make it for you. For this reason you have to craft your own armor at eight times the cost of equivalent armor made for humanoids, and it weighs four times more. (7)
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Dark vision. You have superior vision in the dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness, only shades of gray.
Languages. Speak, read, and write in common and giant.
Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons (0.75)
Half Ogre
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and Constitution score increases by 1. The Intelligence is reduced by 1. (4)
Age. Half-Ogres mature a little faster than humans, reaching adulthood around age 14. Rarely living pass the age of 75.
Size. Medium. Large at 7th level (7)
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Dark vision. Thanks to your Ogre blood, you have superior vision in the dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness, only shades of gray.
Languages. Speak, read, and write in common and giant.
Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons and Axes (1.5)
Catodon, I finally got to skimming your article (I'd previously only used the spreadsheet, which is ridiculously useful for design purposes) and I noted your section where you mention Dwarven Toughness, and how it's been a thorn in your side. You conclude, "HP from a feat is worth less than a HP from a race. This is a nonsense solution but the only one that works." I think I can resolve this difficulty for you: Wizards has obviously (from my several reads of the DMG and PHB) taken pains to consider those campaigns where the DM decides not to use feats -- after all, they are given in the "Customization Options" section of the PHB. I'm sure you've already come to this conclusion, but I think this is why WotC considers this adequate reason to make the racial ability worth more -- because HP from a race is something everyone will get, while HP from a feat will not always be available -- which implies their in-house formulas balance across playstyles and campaigns.
Thanks for the pointers both of you. Kinda busy right now but by way of quick reply here's my current version of half ogre (a quick cut and paste from article)
Half-Ogre
* ½ Medium giant. Speed 30ft. Languages Common, Giant.
Str +3{3-20}, Dex+0{3-20}, Con +2 {3-20}, Int-2{2-14} Wis-1{3-18}, Cha+0{3-20} (P 4).
Traits: Proficient in battle axe and javlin at the same Size as the half-ogre (X 1), counts as Large for grappling (F 1), takes up the same amount of space of a grid or battlefiled as a Large creature (! -1). At 5th level becomes Large (I 7). The first Extra Attack grant to the half ogre by a class is exchanged for a 1d8 HD. Total 12
Lesser traits: powerful build (F) this trait is superceded by Large. Darkvision 60ft.
Notes: the half ogre first appeared as a PC race in 1e and I really wanted it as an option for 1st level PCs to reproduce the 1e version. The in-game explanation is that the half-ogre is a teenager right on the cusp of Large size who soon puts on enough muscle and height to become properly Large.
So yeh 7pt for Large at 7th seems fine,
Catodon wrote:
Short reply: when pricing Natural weapons you only pay for the most expensive. I'll change it so when paying for natural weapons you pay only for the highest of your natural weapons or Size (if large or greater) which ever is higher? how's that?
"...if a race has natural attacks only pay for the highest natural attack, or if Size is higher pay for Size. Both Size with tool use 3+ and Natural Attacks are both effectively changes to DPR."
Be careful with Large at 7th. It's fine as long as they don't be fighters or other classes with Extra Attacks, the combination of 4d6 damage dice and extra attacks makes Large fighter's DPR huge.
True. But this character will never get a 4th attack as a fighter or a 18-20 critical range as a champion.
8d6+10 damage with st 20 in 2 attacks vs 6d6+15 (3 attacks, 4th at 20th only)... not very more...
Why are extra attacks removed from bigger races?
To allow bigger tool users at lower levels than would otherwise be possible the Extra Attacks feature needs to be removed to keep these races within the normal damage per round progression for PCs even if they take a class that grants Extra Attacks. However we don’t want to short-change fighters; a d8 hit die just happens to be worth the same number of points as an extra attack and giving larger warriors more Hit Points seems believable.
Here’s some of the math. Let’s compare two characters with Strength 20, two Extra Attacks and greatswords, one is human the other is Large but otherwise they are the same. Assuming a worthy foe is hit 50% of the time, three attacks is x1.875 damage. So the human (2d6+5 damage per attack) has a DPR of 22.5. While the Large giant with STR20 armed with a scaled greatsword with 4d6+5 damage per attack has DPR 35.625. That's 13.125pt of damage difference. 11th is when the fighter has 3 attacks. The human fighter above has a DPR close to Surfarcher's average DPR for a single PC (for a party of the four core classes) at 11th level, 26.2, that's still 9.425pt more damage per round for the giant. The average DPR for a canon PC at 19th level is 35.8, an 11th level character able to dish out damage like a 19th level one is obviously overpowered. Removing the Extra Attacks from giant PCs seemed the best option.
Troll reality check: A little OP. Since he regenerates, opponents tend to hit other targets first. The Troll just went down once in 15 combat becaue he was duelling with a demon... Maybe regen is more than 22 points...
Noted, will take another look at it.
I've been chipping away at this project around piad work making a number of tweaks and expanding the examples a little. Discussions with you have been valuable. How would you like to be credited as a playtester? (what name)
As you wish. Michel Trepanier is my name.
Thanks Michel
mictrepanier wrote:
Final version released see new thread
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http://community.wizards.com/forum/dungeon-master-help/threads/4234921