Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pukunui Jun 25, 2015 21:36:00	Hi folks,   In D&D 3.5, if you wanted to send a fireball through an arrow slit, you had to make a ranged touch attack against the wall. This was generally an incredibly easy thing to do, but the idea was that if you failed, the fireball would detonate on your side of the wall.   I note that there doesn't seem to be anything like that for 5e's fireball. How is everyone adjudicating this? Do you just let your casters shoot their little fire beads through arrow slits and other narrow spaces with ease? It seems a little too easy, if you know what I mean? Can anyone ever get cover from a fireball when the caster basically can just point and click and boom?   All I can find in the 5e rules is the bit about having a clear path to the target: "If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction".   What exactly does that mean? Does that mean if you want to have something originate on the floor on the other side of an arrow slit, then it automatically fails because you can't see the floor? But if you can have something, like a fireball, detonate in the air on the far side of the arrow slit (in a space of air that you can see through the slit), then it automatically succeeds?   What about if it's dark on the other side of the arrow slit? Does that mean you can't see any points on the far side and that it therefore would automatically originate on the outside of the arrow slit?   It's a little bit unclear to me. And seems a little too ease to negate cover with a fireball ...   Anyone got any ideas?
#2 Razintarr Jun 25, 2015 23:37:22	The description of the fireball changed. It used to be a glowing pea-sized bead that sot from your pointed finger to a destination. Now it's described as a bright streak that flashes to it's destination. The old fireball also had explicitly stated in it's rules that it could explose prematurely if it hit something. The 5th description doesn't have anything like that.   I'd say the new fireball can streak between creatures and through arrow slits without problem. No attackrolls needed.
#3 pukunui Jun 25, 2015 23:44:22	So it's more like a ray then, eh?
#4 Razintarr Jun 26, 2015 1:07:56	A ray implies it needs a straight unobstructed line. It doesn't even need that. Just line of sight to the destination square. The image I get from it is that the flash of light can arc around objects that are blocking a straight line.    In world, I regard the change in the spell as an armsrace development. Old fireballs had the chance of premature detonations. Military tactics from those days wrote about sharpshooters trying to intercept the bead with an arrow when it just left the finger of the mage, and the use of arrowslits on castles. That led to a new type of fireball that repaired the premature detonation problem. The new type has replaced the old type of the spell.
#5 Imaculata Jun 26, 2015 3:43:23	The old fireball was kind of like lobbing a grenade: Dangerous even to your own party, and not always quite so accurate. I'd say the new one is a precission weapon.
#6 Fargren Jun 26, 2015 4:43:57	Fireball has gotten a lot less dangerous over time. In 2E, it would always expand to it's maximum volume, even in narrow spaces. So if you threw it in a hallway, for example, it was very hard to predict exactly were the area of effect would end.
#7 pukunui Jun 26, 2015 5:29:39	Razintarr wrote:
#8 Nevvur Jun 26, 2015 9:41:52	You do not need to be able to see the point you are targeting with fireball. The spell states you "choose a point within range," and not "choose a point within range that you can see." Therefore, you can cast fireball through the arrow slit into a dark room, or any other area of heavy obscurement.    It is only when there is an obstruction (that provides full cover) between that point and the caster that the fireball explodes early. That said, if you are casting into an area of heavy obscurement, you don't know if it might hit an obstruction before reaching the point you have chosen.
#9 Sorsohka Jun 26, 2015 10:15:37	The old fireball was doing more damage base on your caster level, so you could still cast it as a 3rd level spell, using a 3rd level spell slot and deal 10d6 damage, didn't need to cast it as a spell level 5. The new fireball just require a line of sight to explose where you want (or imagine) it. Even if you are blind you can still cast your fireball 25ft in front of you without any risk of getting yourself in the blast.   So if your arrow slit is big enought that the wizard can see inside, then it's exactly like in the real world when military drop a grenade in a bunker, bad new for the soldier inside.
#10 Nevvur Jun 26, 2015 11:00:31	To address one of the questions in the OP, is the 5e fireball too easy? Should there be a chance of not landing the point of origin of the AE exactly where you want?   First and foremost, that would be a house rule, so get your players' input before dropping any changes on them. One of the best pieces of advice I ever read on this forum was, "Manage player expectations well." I feel the 5e fireball is perfectly fine as it is. If I were inclined to house rule a chance of landing it in the wrong spot, my first thought is to have the caster make a spell attack roll vs AC 10 (+ 2/5 cover). I would only invoke this house rule when there was some question about accuracy in the first place, not for every instance of casting fireball. A miss on the spell attack results in displacing the point of origin by 5 feet in a randomly determined direction.
#11 BRJN Jun 26, 2015 19:05:28	My 4e Warlock had the Wand-User Expertise feat (forget the exact name) that said he could ignore all cover.  I used to shoot Eldritch Blasts (but nothing else) through keyholes and arrow slits, if I could see a viable target on the other side.  It drove DMs nuts and made my guy a memorable party member.   So let's try this: my 5e Fireball can go anywhere I want within range, but stops if it hits an obstruction.  I can see a keep with an arrow slit.  If I walk around a bit I can see how big the keep is.  Now, I'll go back to face the arrow slit head-on, target it, and imagine my destination as "the far wall of the tower, behind the arrow slit".  Since I seem to have laser-pointer accuracy, I can get the spell into the arrow slit with no further ado.  However, I have no idea what is inside the keep.  The arrow slit might be along a hallway, not in a room - there might be a wall in the way.  I'll know a little bit more about the interior layout when I shoot off my Fireball and carefully plot where the explosion forms tongues of fire out the arrow slits / windows.  If it's all on the OTHER side of the keep, there is a big open room on that level.  If I see lots of flames spurting out of MY side of the keep, there's a wall in there.  It is also possible I'll hit the ceiling part-way across, if the geometry / trigonometry is aligned appropriately, and all the Bang will stay inside. (Regardless, be sure to let the Assault Squad leader know what happens, so he can brief his men.)