Hi folks,
Out of interest, how do you guys manage a sleeping character's perception? The unconscious condition says that the character is unaware of its surroundings, but that may be more to do with people who are dying or are in a poison-induced coma or whatever. I'm talking about characters who are just getting some shut-eye.
Let's say the PCs are asleep in an inn. They all felt safe enough that they didn't bother posting a watch ... but here comes a would-be assassin, sneaking down the hall, trying not to step on the creaky floorboards or make any noise while picking the lock to their door ... but one of the PCs might be a light sleeper, and if the assassin makes any noise, that PC might wake up.
In 3.5, a sleeping character could make a Listen check with a -10 penalty. I suppose in 5e, one could go with passive Perception with a -5 for disadvantage. Would anyone rule it differently?
I was thinking maybe of dropping the -5 penalty if a PC has an appropriate background (such as soldier) or is no longer in the 1st Tier (so level 5+) to represent experience listening for danger while asleep.
Cheers,
Jonathan
So I think about it this way: What is the meaningful decision being made by the players in this interaction? Basically none, outside of when they built their characters (that is, when they chose race, ability scores, skills, and feats to arrive at a passive Perception score). The DM is making a roll to determine if the assassin gets the jump on them or not and there's nothing they can do about it. To me, that makes it a bad interaction. Instead, I'm going to pick the person with the highest passive Perception score and tell them they hear creaking floorboards just outside their chamber followed by silence and ask, "What do you do?" Then I'll decide whether the assassin gets a jump on someone a result of the next action that player chooses to take with their character (either because I said so or because I asked for a roll).
If none of the above is anything your group cares about, then I think disadvantage on passive Perception is fine.
Passive Perception, with -5 for Disadvantage. I can't even imagine playing it differently.
It might seem harsh, but PCs are much more likely to be on the giving end than on the receiving. I would probably allow the victim to roll for the assassin's Stealth check, though - kind of like a saving throw.
I don't think it's harsh, though I do like Iserith's approach as well (it would take some getting used to on my group's part, though). What do you think of my idea to not impose disadvantage for seasoned veterans (whether they be soldiers or adventurers), representing their ability to sleep lightly while keeping an ear out for danger?
pukunui wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Instead of a negative penalty, just give the disadvantage on the check of sleeping characters. Maybe alter Alert to take away the disadvantage on the check.
bonethug0108 wrote:
pukunui wrote:
iserith wrote:
I think the way I would do it is to have the assassin make a stealth check against the PCs passive perception, with their passive perception at -5. I would not apply this -5 to any elves in the group since they are only in a trance and not asleep.
If the poor PCs did not hear their assailant, then I would treat attacks upon the character as if they were unconscious (automatic critical hit from melee attacks, attacks have advantage against sleeping character and the sleeping character would automatically fail dexterity and strength saving throws.. But not constitution saves for any poisoners out there!). Then, if the attacker hit and damaged the character, I would then say the character wakes up immediately same way they would if a Sleep spell had made them go unconscious. At this point I would begin allowing PCs who were nearby have active perception rolls every round (perhaps imposing disadvantage if there were any walls between them or allowing for advantage if they are in the same room).
i know some people would think of this as harsh. But there are probably few times I would have this happen in a game where the characters are sleeping at an inn. To me though this is one way a DM creates a living world. To me this can be a way to convey the conditions of humanity (or perhaps demi-humanity) and can create challenges in dealing with that characters reality, instead of simply pandering to the players. sending in an assassin to plague the characters while they sleep will not be something players are going to like. But if it is what the DM believes an npc may do, then it shouldn't stop the DM from utilizing that avenue of storytelling to create an interesting story.
iserith wrote:
Like Iserith said, an assasination where the players are unaware, is just a player kill. So either always create a noise that the players hear, or have the assassin sneak into the wrong room by accident. Otherwise there's not much fun to be had roleplaying wise. Or maybe the players are just being robbed, or the assassin is really just a friendly npc who means no harm. You can set up the suspense of a possible assassination, and then add a twist that turns it totally around. For example:
In my campaign, I had a player visit the local bathhouse. While he was taking a nap, he suddenly heard screaming in the hallway. He popped his head out of the door, and found one of the servants on the floor, crying, with the door of another room wide open. Guards came rushing in to inspect the scene. As it turned out, the assassin had killed the wrong person, and gotten away. This is more enjoyable to the players, because now they are aware that someone is trying to kill them. It also made sense narratively, because there was a small mix up with the rooms early on in the story.
pukunui wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
Passive Wisdom (Perception) with a -5, opposed by the Dexterity(Stealth) check of the assassin.
Of course, since you roll the assassins check without the players even knowing anything is going on, the only reason to actually roll the dice is if you - the DM - want to be surprised by the outcome.
pukunui wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Hmmm, interesting. I think I would go the passive perception-5 route, but there is no way that I wouldn't have foreshadowed the assassination attempt in some way first (someone watching/following, reports of odd people about, people asking questions etc) to at least put the PCs on edge a bit so they have a good reason to be on guard. If they decide to ignore this, then so be it - definitely a meaningful decision. Similar, I suppose, to a squeaking floorboard, but not so immediate.
iserith wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
bille wrote:
bille wrote:
iserith wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
The assassin is irrelevant really. It could just as easily be someone sneaking in to rob the PCs of their hard-earned treasure. Or even one PC trying to sneak out without the others hearing him. Yes, I like iserith's approach to turn it into a dramatic moment, but I still feel like there might be the odd corner case where knowing what someone's Perception while they're asleep would be like. The consensus seems to be passive Perception with the static -5 for disadvantage, so I'll stick with that for when it's needed. Thank you all for posting.
iserith wrote:
I found this conversation to be very enlightening, since I have a character with Perception(the max). Thanks to all, for getting me to think about what that might mean in a role-playing sort of way.
Saelorn wrote:
Alternatively, what you could do is have a mysterious stranger drop a warning for the players, that someone is planning an attack on them during the night. It may not happen that very same night, but the one after, but it builds suspense, and allows the players to prepare. Your goal here should be for the players to be excited, and have fun. Not for them to be killed in their sleep.
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Imaculata wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
pukunui wrote:
iserith wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
iserith wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
To be honest, if I were in the monster hunting and dungeon raiding business that a D&D character usually is in, I would get a little paranoid that someone I have irritated might get some hired help to solve the problem of me existing in the world. Also AaronOfBarbaria is right, you do get used to the watch pattern after a while. The funny thing is that, until now, we've been following this pattern in each and every game I have been, without ever stopping to think if the whole process was paranoid or ordinary...
Oh, yeah I almost forgot, I would also go for passive perception with dissadvantage. However, I would have staged earlier attempts so that the players know they have been targeted. After all, a specialist is an expensive option to be used after your hired thugs prove ineffective.
Wouldn't the scenario be:
Players sleep.
Assassin attacks-> target is unconscious (sleeping) so the attack is an automatic critical-> target wakes up from being attacked if not dropped to 0 hp.
Is there a rule in the book for a coup de grace? Or are we assuming that a crit from the assassin is fatal for the scenario?
Even if you don't want to do a "perception" check because sleeping characters are unaware of their surroundings, you could still call for a generic wisdom check to see if any of the characters get a "gut feeling", maybe in the form of a nightmare that jolts them awake because of the subconsciously perceived threat.
iserith wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Bloodscythe wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
iserith wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
You are my new hero Saelorn.
Saelorn wrote: