Hi all! In our weekly dnd group, there is one player who tries mightily to get by with what ever he can with our current DM. Whenever I DM this is no problem, for I know the rules much better and can shut him down. However, when I'm not dm'ing, this drives me crazy because I know this person is getting away with things that shouldn't be gotten away with, but I don't want to be a rules baron and step on the dm's toes.
What do I do?
What does it mean to "try mightily to get by with whatever he can" with the DM? The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions, applying the rules as necessary to resolve uncertainty. The rules don't run the game - the DM does.
If this is an issue where the player is hogging the spotlight or otherwise negatively impacting the game experience, I'd recommend talking to the DM and player in question directly and politely and ask for their help in finding a solution to the problem.
Some examples of what you're referring to might be helpful though.
iserith wrote:
Some examples: taking more than the standard 1 bonus action per turn, rolling more than the alloted dice for damage, trying and succeeding to buy things from the dm that that break combat (ie make it too easy, as in +2 and +3 weapons and we are only level 8), not erasing his potions of invisibility he's used over and over...just to name a few.
When I dm, I know that you only get 1 bonus action, thus he can either switch his hunters mark to another creature this turn or use his off hand as his bonus action this turn. Our current dm lets him do both.
He freqently rolls collossal slayer with every hit, and tries to roll sneak attack damage with each roll.
He basically just outshines everyone at the table when this stuff is allowed to happen. I'm a healing cleric becuase the group needed support, so I'm less concerned with my own damage and what not, but it is a "spotlight" issue that I feel the other players just don't shine at all when compared to what this character gets to do.
I think it’d okay to say something like “Hey dude, sneak attack wouldn’t apply here” or “wait, you already used your bonus action” to a fellow player. The DM takes the lead generally, but the group is playing the game together. As a DM, I certainly don’t mind when players work together to know the rules better. There’s already plenty a DM has to keep track of and it makes my job easier.
Call the player out on it. Show some guts. If you know the rules then correct him.At the very least, alert the DM to the situation.
If I were in that situation, I would point out what he's doing wrong.
I've done it in the past (mostly at AL games) and had people point out errors while I'm DMing. Much better to have it out in the open.
Sling617 wrote:
When I joined my current Tiamat group, I became the "look-up-rules guy". Because I had a copy of the rulebook and had a good familiarity with it. Whenever the DM or a player did not know what to do (mechanics, not deciding on an action) I could find out and explain how to proceed.
When our former DM had to leave the group (end of school year), the group asked ME to become the new DM !
So I'm trying to find somebody who can be the new "look-up-rules guy/gal" because I've got so much on my plate...
I don't see any problem with you interjecting, "Excuse me, are you sure that's how it works?" and pull out your PH.
Don't accuse anybody of anything, just pretend it's a mistake / misunderstanding.
i think you gotta be careful about it. i mean, like sure. we are all supposed to be fair n stuff, but ive called out some dude who was constantly doubling his sneak attack dice pool and we never saw that player again. Instead we got a player i recall from a PF game who was having a hard time with rules to the point of becoming quite loud and upset.
Usually, when my players are getting too cheaty, I try to figure out the best way to correct the decision without being confrontational, or produce elaborate plots wherein the success of the player is what is amplifying their own threat. In one scenario,
the players were hired by demons pretending to be wandering monks, to retrieve a scroll from a pyramid in one of the lower planes.
the pyramid was guarded by all sorts of golems, statues, and 'evil' things, but not really evil. There was however a wandering evil demon dragon that added to the illusion that they were entering an evil temple. The demons wanted the scroll so they could awaken the forbidden evil dark lord, as the centuries old rumor had spread of a powerful force of evil and destruction. The TOMB of the dark lord was inside the castle of a lawful good town full of Clerics of Light and Paladins. The players were convinced initially enough to retrieve and hand over the scroll, but then the demons revealed they were going to release the dark lord. The players then chased after the demons (this is where it gets particularly funny), and one of them actually cheated to try to repeatedly critical and power through the demons to stop them.
The demons barely managed to get to the Tomb of the Dark Lord and began chanting the scroll, after putting up a wall of force. The cheating player conveniently pulled out a wand of negation to bypass the wall of force, and while this was happening, a gate opened and an evil goddess avatar came through, and began censuring the demons who had barely managed to crack the seal on the tomb... of an ancient godlike lawful good archmage, who had set the entire plot into motion. The cheating player, still not aware that the Dark Lord was actually the good guy, proceeded to roll several attacks and changing his dice to read as max damage and criticals...
You know, I think people do stupid things. Cheating is one of them. But it can be funny when someone is cheating to ruin their own goals.
You don't have to be confrontational to point out a problem. Do what Iserith said "Polite and direct".
iserith wrote:
Whenever I join a campaign, I ask the DM if they're ok with me pointing out rules and helping people with them and such.
If the DM objects, I won't do it. If the DM is fine with it, then I will.
The reason why I ask the DM instead of the players is because presumably the DM knows best what level of rules enforcement the table wants, since it's the DM's job to do it normally. So the DM is best equipped to answer the question.
ankiyavon wrote:
Ralif_Redhammer wrote:
In my group, both the DM and the players check the rules. It is okay for one player to correct another player on the rules, or to correct the DM on the rules. If you allow open discussion of the rules at your table, this should not be a problem. I don't get the impression that the guy you are describing is deliberately trying to break the rules. It sounds more like a case of the DM not knowing the rules himself, and/or not enforcing them.
As a DM it is your job to ask your players how many potions they have left, and whether they didn't already use up that potion. It is also your job to make sure that players cross off what ever gold they spend at a merchant. And it is your job to be cautious what kind of powerful items you hand to your players. All these things are in the DM's hands. It really sounds like the DM(s) are the problem here.
You know, I just don’t get what’s fun about always succeeding in a game and fights being cakewalks. Yes, it’s nice to be awesome, but the game is also supposed to be a challenge. A nat 20 feels so much better after rolling a 6. Slaying a dragon when you've got 3 HP left is way more thrilling than doing so without a scratch.
Imaculata wrote:
I think if anyone feels the urge to bring up the rules that the DM is getting "wrong," he or she needs to ask the question: "Is getting the rule exactly right going to meaningfully change the situation, make the game more fun, and contribute to the creation of an exciting, memorable story?" If not, then clam up, write down the issue, and bring it up after the session. I mean, if a fellow player says his or her 1st-level character doffs a shield, then kills the last goblin with a two-handed attack with the character's longsword, do you really need to stop the game to tell the DM that doffing a shield is an action? No, you don't, because it's probably not a big deal. Make a note of it and bring it up later. Don't be the guy or gal at the table who brings up niggling details all the time. That can be really annoying.
Ralif_Redhammer wrote:
Getting a few minor rules wrong is one thing. But drinking the same invisibility potion over and over is another. Technically he could be under a misconception on how potions work, but I doubt it.
- Eck
I had a similar issue when 5e came out, where people were still playing 3.5. so the rogue would apply his sneak damage on every attack for example, or a sorcerer casting fireball then quicken fireball in the same round. I was calling them out and the DM ask me to stop doing it. Instead to discretly tell the DM the discrepency with the rules and the DM will judge if he allow teh rule transcretion for this time or if he will ask the player to fixe the problem right now. If the issues take more then a single note to fix, then to tell him about those discrepency after the game and he'll fix the problem by telling the offending player to fix his character before next game.
usually if it's a simple fix (liek applying sneak attack on only 1 attack, or preventing fireball then quicken fireball) those modification would be taking place on the spot.
If it's a problem where the player need to rebuild his character (rolled stats, rolled HP, extra feats, extra proficiency, spell from a wrong spell list, etc...) the DM would allow it this week since changing the stat would slow down the game too much and he don't want to send player away.
Cheat harder than them. Are you going to let them get away with thinking they are the best cheater, laughing at you all the while? Disrespecting you in from of the other players and the punk DM?
Cheat my friend. Cheat like the wind!
iserith wrote:
ankiyavon wrote:
iserith wrote:
tarristerwelm wrote:
I just teach my players while playing. Yeah I ask them to read the rules, but I don't expect them to know everything and I tell them that I'm fine teaching them while playing.
Can't really blame a player for not knowing the rules, if he intentionally cheats however, ...
But it would also indicate that the DM isn't very good with the rules if he allows all of that. DMs unlike player need to be very familiar with the rules imo.
I have to say I like the idea of rewarding inspiration to a player that points out a rule I've missed as DM.
Ralif_Redhammer wrote:
I'm not doing 'DM vs PCs', but if I've got an intelligent monster to play, it WILL do things to hurt Team PC the most I can think of. (Like a yuan-ti Suggestion "That fellow hanging in the back* is our spy and he brought you right into a trap - take your revenge before it's too late")
Unintelligent beasts, on the other hand...
* Bard / Wizard / bow Ranger
tarristerwelm wrote:
iserith wrote:
The Dungeon Master makes the final call, but the experience of nurturing insight, assisting with understanding, and driving rules mastery should be a collaborative, open conversation at the table.
Defaulting to the Dungeon Master's authority is different than allowing wrongful insight, misunderstanding, and a lack of rules mastery to persist (or even thrive).
The game gets better when the rules become smooth tools for all involved. Everyone should be on board with that.
I'd ask the DM if they mind you helping out with the rules. If they don't mind go all over it.
You could also start with things like "I thought it worked like this?" and "Oh cool, did you take something giving you a second bonus action? I'm trying to build a character for fun and that would be neat to have"
Assume you are wrong, and ask them to explain it to you. Should make it clear enough.
Or you could just tell the player to stop cheating. Thats usually the best answer.
tarristerwelm wrote:
It's a slippery slope either way. On one hand, you run the risk of being the rules-baron, which can irritate other players but really alienate your DM as well, especially if they are allowing those infractions due to lack of DM experience. Keep in mind that if you point out rule infractions enough, you might end up hurting the DM by accident. You can't get so hung up on details that you belittle the DM's authority over the game or the DM is going to withdraw because you make them feel inadequate. In that case, you're best served speaking to the DM and player after the game.
Here's where I differ from others, though. There always seems to be one person who has what I call "Special Snowflake Syndrome". Symptoms of this accursed disease are as follows:
-supernatural origin story
-special traits/powers in history that aren't part of class description
-desire to get the killing blow on everything
-inability to share spotlight
-must be leader of group while also being the silent, brooding hero
Obviously I'm joking (partly), but there are generally people that want to be "the" special one in every group. By special, I mean that they are the one that "wins" to save the group/the day from danger. This isn't any less valid of a player than someone who is willing to work within the group; they are doing what they find fun and entertaining. The issue is that in my experience, those players tend to drive away other players. When one player is the only one achieving anything, the other players will withdraw.
In my experience, those players are the ones who are looking for any and every advantage that they can find to be the hero, not always because they are cheating but because they want to have the joyful experience of being the hero. As much as I as DM want to accomodate that player, it's my responsibility to shut that kind of play down or I risk losing all of the other player's interest. That sounds like what is happening here. You are finding your sessions less enjoyable because one player, whether intentionally or not, is playing outside of the rules of the game that you and others are playing abiding by.
You absolutely have to talk to your DM about it. Your DM has to address it. Sure, that means that you run the risk of losing the other player but the alternative is that the group runs the risk of losing you when you either get fed up or lose interest.