Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Asyrin May 09, 2015 8:34:05	So we've lost a few players over the months and others have rerolled. I intend to use these vanished characaters as NPCs in an upcoming adventure.   The problem is calculating the Difficulty for an encounter such as this. I know the DM's guide provides an outline for calculating an NPC's difficulty based on damage, health, AC, etc but this doesn't seem to fit very well when we're talking about a character that literally follows the same rules as the players.   I considered just calling the NPC's level their DC but this also doesn't jive well. for example, if I have 4 level 8 players and I pit them against 2 level 8 "former players". the calculator rates this as a DC 14 absolutely totally impossible encounter and that's just silly.   So, what have other DMs determined? Logic dictates that 4 level 8 players facing 4 level 8 NPCs is a difficult but not impossible fight. Sure, they have to kill the NPCs without being wiped themselves but my players have also been playing their characters for 8 levels while I'll be controlling 4 relatively new classes to me.   Thanks in advance for your advice!
#2 Kentus May 09, 2015 8:56:32	I would just rewrite them as monsters. Drop all class features but the most memorable ones, recalculate their hit die to d8 if possible, then look how well they are now (they most likely be of a lesser CR than level).   Then readjust the hp and damage, unil they're at the level you want them to be.
#3 iserith May 09, 2015 19:12:44	I don't create NPCs like PCs. I make them like monsters and have mostly been just reskinning things that are already in the Monster Manual that fit the concept I'm going for.
#4 CCS May 09, 2015 20:48:28	I've always - BECMI - Present - made npcs exactly as I would a pc. Although in 3x/PF I don't bother to detail their specific skill ranks. As for xp (or at least the CR system): I'm not a fan. I don't have much use for WoTCs/PF system of calulations.
#5 BoldItalic May 10, 2015 7:37:01	A fight between four 8th-level PCs and four 8th-level NPCs could go either way - if you fight to the finish it's 50/50 on a TPK. That's super-deadly. I'd say 3 NPCs would still be deadly - the party would probably win but quite likely one PC would go down.   Let's work back. A deadly encounter for four 8th-level PCs would be 4x2100 = 8400 XP after adjusting for numbers of monsters. If there are three monsters, that's x2 so the individual XPs must have been 8400/2 = 4200 total so that's 4200/3 = 1400 XP each. So an 8th-level NPC is worth 1400 XP which makes it about CR4 or maybe 5.   This fits broadly with the CRs for the NPCs in the MM - the Mage is 9HD, CR6 whilst the Knight is 8HD, CR3 so an average of CR4 or 5 seems to fit.    (edit -added later)   Now you just need to adjust the NPCs to fit that ball-park figure. I would make them 7th level in terms of class features and spells. If the PCs recruit them as allies, you want them to be able to keep pace with the party without overshadowing the PCs, so one level below is about right. That determines what special features they have that affect the CR.   If you keep the same equipment as they had as PCs, that gives you the AC and you can fiddle the HP to make the defensive CR come out in the range 3-6. You don't have to use the HP for a 7th-level PC - it's a monster now, so it can have any HP you like. The players will never know. Now decide on a target for the Offensive CR. If the Defensive CR is low, make the Offensive at the higher end, and vice versa, so they add up to about 9. Equipment and class features will tell you DPR, then you can fiddle the Attack Bonus to get the Offensive CR you want.   Example (Applying DMG p.274 "Step 4") 7th-level Edlritch Knight with Defense fighting style. Str 18, Con 17, Splint Mail, Shield, Battleaxe, Poison Spray cantrip. War Magic class feature allows bonus weapon attack when casting a cantrip.   AC21, 67 HP gives Defensive CR4 DPR 21, Attack Bonus +7 gives Offensive CR 4/5 FInal CR4   Seems about right as it stands, no need to fiddle anything.
#6 Kayal May 10, 2015 7:33:24	iserith wrote:
#7 Barky May 10, 2015 14:27:35	CCS wrote:
(Reply to #7) CCS	Barky wrote:
#9 UngeheuerLich May 12, 2015 10:17:23	I would also advise you to calculate CR individually. A mage taht only has divinations prepared may be CR 1/2, even though he would be 7th level or so.   I do however like to build NPCs like PC´s too. But I don´t track feats or ability bumps. I just stat them as it fits. If I convert an older adventure to 5e, I try to stat them as they were statted before, only changing things that don´t make sense anymore. I generally don´t worry about CR though. It is the players decision usually when to fight and against how many foes at once.