Hey guys, brand new to the forums, but long time D&D player.
I havent played much since 3rd edition, but with 5e coming out and sounding so awesome, i dug up all my old friends from high school and decided to DM a campaign. So far its been a blast, for the players at least, but I am pulling my hair out trying to stop them. I'm probably going to go into way too much detail below, but I'd love some help from some more experienced DM's.
So we have a wizard, cleric, rouge/monk, paladin, and barbarian. On this most recent play session, my wizard brought up that he could create magic items, and wanted to know if it'd be ok to do that. IMO, if its in the rules, then its an ok thing to do, and since I haven't played as a PC in over 10 years I really had no idea what I was getting myself into. So on this mission, my plan was to have them go into a certain chamber, (players were lvl 3 btw) and in this room there were 30 guards and the "Witch". The witch was a CR 6 mage, 9th lvl caster, and 30 guards plus her should have easily been able to kill them all if they got wiley. Well, thats not at all how it went down. The wizard right off the bat unloads his wand of magic missle that he created, dealing the mage 36 points of damage, of her 40 hp (keep in mind, they weren't even supposed to fight her. plan was for them to come in, get beat up by 15 guards, then if anyone was still concious she would cast sleep and put em down and move on with the quest).
So that was his initiative, nearly killing the boss they weren't supposed to fight for several levels right out of the gate. The rouge/monk, using his ki points and sneak attack bonus from having advantage, was shelling out 2-3 attacks per turn, and about 22 damage on average. His minimum damage is 15, when using flurry of blows, which is insane to me given the HP of the monsters he should be fighting, but I digress.
long story short, my party killed 30 guards and the witch. I realized when she tried to put them to sleep that the elves were immune to sleep, which I should've known before hand to plan for but since I havent played as a PC in so long I was just in the dark.
Either way though, I was absolutely flabbergasted they took this fight on for one, and actually won it for two. The paladin was rocking 23 ac, which meant a guard had to roll a 20 to hit, and while everyone was going down left and right, the cleric was able to dish out about 60 points of healing by the time it was all said and done and keep everyone thriving. I did the calculations post fight, and that was a CR FIFTEEN FIGHT, that they actually won.
So my question to you guys, what the @#$%$ do I do?? I cant put them up against adult red dragons.. or should I if they seem to handle it? My concern is they have over powered themselves through the use of crafting, and while im sure that will balance out in a few levels, i HOPE, I don't know what to do from here. more traps? I'm just kinda at a loss, as its been so long since I played. I could just overrule things, and be like 'you fall asleep anyway' or fudge numbers on guards, but the system is structured so that they shouldn't have been able to win that fight in the first place, so i shouldn't have to have cheated just to win it and move on with the mission.
Any advice? I appreciate it! any more info you need just ask.
I assume you used actual guards from the MM?
First off, you don't count creatures that are significantly below the average CR of the other creatures(unless they may greatly affect the encounter). So the multiplier should have been 1, or 2 at best grouping the CR1/8 guards into groups of 10 meaning they were fighting "4" creatures(round about guesstimate to eyeball challenge).
What really went wrong though was that the group almost immediately wiped out the one significant threat, greatly lowering the actual challenge. One high level creature mixed with a ton of lower level creatures usually doesn't up the challenge if the party aims for the big guy first.
Then I have to question some of the math going on here. 23 AC at 3rd level doesn't seem right for any character, and I greatly question how the monk/rogue was getting constant advantage and dishing out that much damage with at max 2 ki points(meaning 3 attacks in only 2 rounds if he was monk 2/rogue 1, only averaging 2.5 on a hit for the unarmed strikes). Sneak attack should have been giving an average of 3.5 damage per round he had advantage.
Does the paladin have magic armor and shields already? Did you add the sneak attack damage to every attack? How is the monk rogue getting 15 minimum damage(1+1+1+1 = 4 and that's assuming he could use sneak attack and it was on the one or two turns he used ki). Also the monk/rogue at best can use a 1d6 shortsword to take advantage of both sneak attack and martial arts. At most that's 6+6+4+4 = 20 damage max he can do on the 1-2 rounds he can use ki AND has advantage. The wand of magic missle should have done at MAX 20 points of damage.
Sounds like the math here is way way way off.
Bad math aside, the guards only have +3 to hit and aren't a dire threat.
So first things first you need to go through and make sure all of the math the players are using is right(most of it is not). Second, remember that low level creatures don't add to the multiplier if they are 5 or more steps below the highest CR creature. So yeah definitely go back and check the math.
So a lot of this is my fault, and im going to sound like an idiot, but I've known these guys for 20 years and I trust them to not fudge stuff. So, that said, what I was informed was, according to my rouge/monk, any time he has a player within 5 feet of an enemy hes attacking (as he said it, he said any time an enemy of my enemy is within 5 feet of the target creature) he does not get advantage, but he does get his sneak attack damage. He states that is part of the sneak attack. Therefore, using the monk weapon of a short spear, which is a simple weapon and can be used by a monk, he rolls 1d6 damage from that. He adds his dex mod to his attack roll, which is a mod of 5 (he rolled some awesome stats). Then, he adds his sneak attack damage at another d6, meaning with his primary attack he rolls 2d6+5. Then, using his bonus action once per turn, he can make another melee attack with his fist, for 1d4. because the bonus action is separate from the main action, he also gets to add his dex mod to that attack as well, so basically plus another 1d4+5. This may be wrong, to add the dex mod again during the same round, and that is something we are not clear on, but at best (for him anyways haha) this is now a minimum 2d6+5 and 1d4+5 for the turn. thats a min of 13 damage, max of 26. Then, if he flurry of blows, he does the 2d6+5, and 2d4, meaning minimum of 9 max of 25. And this is every round for the original scenario, and 2 times per short rest for the second scenario.
Because the wizard could craft magic items, he spent 60 days and 1500 gold, which was scraped together between all the players and crafted 3 items (the max I'd allow him during the downtime between last session and this one) which were a +1 sheild, for 3 ac, and cloak of protection, for another +1 ac. The final item was his wand as mentioned above. So the paladin had full plate, 18 ac, plus 2 from those two items, and the 2 from the sheild for 22. The final ac came from the wizard casting a spell on him.
Based on the thought I put into this, gold seems to be the key factor here. Had they not had the money to craft these items then none of them would be quite so strong. But that aside, does the above math add up?
The rogue's "bonus action"; are you referring to Cunning Action? If you are, that cannot be used for an Attack action - only movement actions (Dash, Disengage, Hide).
[Edit]: scratch that - you're referring to Martial Arts (MC monk).
In any case, a character can only take one bonus action in a turn (PHB, p.189 'Bonus Actions') , so either Surprise Attack or the Martial Arts bonus action, not both. Flurry of Blows is also a bonus action, so the rogue/monk has a choice of which of those 3 to use on his turn - not all 3.
Money does seem to be abundant, too. Plate is worth 1,500 gp, plus the 1,500 gp used in crafting for 3,000 gp before living expenses and other purchases are taken into account. For 3rd level characters, that seems high to me. I generally only have armorers of the skill required to make and fit plate mail to be available to custom build the stuff, which takes time and money, and generally only high level characters can afford it. I also keep that kind of armor away from treasure hoards until much later, but that's just me.
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly
and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can
deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with
an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The
attack must use a finesse or a ranged w eapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another
enemy o f the target is within 5 feet o f it, that enemy
isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on
the attack roll.
The amount o f the extra damage increases as you
gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack
column o f the Rogue table.
Thats the rouge sneak attack action description, it does not list it as a bonus action. Does it say elsewhere it is a bonus action? It simply says once per turn. If its not a bonus action, then he gets his sneak attack damage, plus his bonus action of his choice of those 3.
No, not bonus action but it does say "once per turn", so yes what you said: he adds that to one attack and then chooses the others as bonus actions. Sorry for the confusion there.
Double check that you are following the 5ed rules. Your session report looks like things are very fast and loose with the rules. A wand of magic missile should rarely be able to do that much damage. Don't forget that using Ki as a low level and multiclassed Monk is an extremely limited resource that is not spammable.
I would chalk up your experience to random chance and deviation from the rules. Since you were upset with the outcome, I would recommend reading all of the rules governing each class for your PCs. I would also take the time to reread the basic rules or the core rulebooks if you have them. The game is pretty well balanced with the rules as they are written. It's not really surprising that things went awry when you deviated from the rules though.
I would close by saying that it is okay for the players to feel like heroes and have a super awesome battle, it sounds pretty fun, even if you weren't happy with the outcome. Just step up your game for next time. I would also caution you not to go overboard and overcompensate by making things extremely hard in the next session. Just try to stick closely to the rules as they are published for the first ten session or so before tweaking things from the published game rules. Good luck!
[edit]
Allowing to roll stats can also lead to big problems with overpowered PCs. In my experience DMs tend to be way too lenient in how they handle rerolls and such. Sticking to the suggested numbers of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 will ensure more balanced PCs, and an experience closer to what you were expecting. Also, don't take your players word for things any longer, as it is clear that they have as little understanding of the rules as you do. It will probably take a few more sessions for people to figure out how things work properly, so don't get frustrated and try to have as much fun as possible while you figure things out. It is only a game so have fun and try to improve each session.
I'm not sure if you're using the options in the DMG for combat, but flanking would have made this a tough fight for the party. When allies are on opposite sides of a target, they both get advantage on their attacks. Even if the party took out 10 guards on round 1, many of the remaining 20 would have been able to flank the PCs and make life difficult for them (except for the paladin!).
Don't forget that in a large group of enemies, many of them (ie. the DM) should use the Help action so that the other enemies can get advantage on their attacks. There are also grapple, shove, and other things for enemies to do instead of "I swing my sword".
I forgot about the dex mod(I was busy looking at the other stuff). My fault on that. Also it doesn't sound like you're players fudge, but they are min/maxing.
The monk/rogue can't use a spear with sneak attack. It has to be a dagger, light crossbow, dart, shortbow, sling, rapier, scimitar, short sword, or whip. He can't use a rapier, scimitar, or whip with martial arts. He likely overlooked this.
His only options to use both are a dagger or shortsword for melee(with the option to throw daggers) or a light crossbow, dart, shortbow, or sling for ranged.
Being that a shortsword is 1d6 the math isn't different than with a spear, but I wanted to point that out. But that means he'll lose the ability to throw a spear(so he has to be in melee to use both abilities) and can't get the 1d8 for using it two handed. If he goes dagger instead the damage does go down but he can throw them. Or he can go a few different ways for ranged only.
And yes a monk adds his dex mod to unarmed damage so that is correct. Ignoring the 1-2 times he can use his flurry, he'll do 1d6+5(8.5 average) + 1d6(3.5) + 1d4+5(7.5) = 19.5 damage on an average round if he is in melee with a friend an using a shortsword. Change it to 17.5 if he throws daggers or darts instead. For one or two rounds he can go for 27 or 25 damage on average.
So you weren't far off there but how he got there is still wrong. I derped and forgot the dex bonus.
On the wand, I was looking at just the spell before(and seeing he could only go max level 2 spell). I just read the actual wand description. How many charges did he use? Max he could get is 9 missiles(all 7 charges) averaging 3.5 damage(31.5 average). Sounds like he likely maxed it out and rolled better than average.
It also sounds like the players a min/maxing at least a little bit. When you have players like that you have to really know their key stats(AC, magic items, damage output, etc.) and plan encounters around that. So the guards in this encounter, as I said, posed very little threat and they almost one shotted the one actual challenge using a magic item to it's full use.
You're going to have to use larger numbers of creatures closer to their level, or a few above their level(or a combo) to really challenge a group that is min/maxing with powerful items. Just be mindful of their abilities vs. the monsters you are pitting them against.
Hopefully this is at least somewhat helpful.
DM_HEEGZ wrote:
Thanks for all the awesome feedback guys! I really do appreciate it. I honestly had fun, it was one of the more memorable D&D sessions in my memory. Epic battle!! It was a hard earned win for them, and they had a blast. I was just sorta down because this Witch had just killed the lord of the area, and she was going to frame them for it and it was gonna be this whole 1-7 quest thing, but they just nipped it at lvl 3 and were overjoyed :D
The wizard really did a lot of the work in terms of smashing the guards. But you're all right, I need to go see exactly how he was doing so much damage. He said he used some empower type ability on the wand to get it to do max damage, burning 7 charges and rolling a break chance. I looked up the wand, magic item creation just now, and both those two things stand, it does take 20 days and 500 gold for uncommon magic item crafting, so I'm going to let them do that to their hearts content. Rares are where I'll start making them quest for components and such, so they don't explode in power in a few levels again. I'm hoping this will balance out the game quite a bit, just ensuring that I use a bit more devious ways of attacking them (I'm looking at a reverse gravity trap that throws someone 50 ft up to the ceiling when they try to go down the well, and a pretty sexy black pudding).
Its too late on the stats, I'm not going to force em all to redraw stats after all these hours we put in. Thanks for the tips though on the stats, yeah it really feels they are beastly there. and you're right... I'm too lenient there. Nevermore!
Yeah, I still frequently forget that a level 1 magic missile is three missiles. I edited my original comment.
[edit]
If their stats are really high, you might just add an extra creature or two to the encounter to make sure it is appropriately challenging. If you guys are having fun, then don't sweat it too much. The system is really flexible, and you can just keep increasing the difficulty to suit the party. Also, keep in mind that 5ed is much lower magic than previous editions, so try not to over do the magic item awards. There is a really nice breakdown of average magic gain in 5ed in this post for a quick reference:
Yup the wizard maxed it out and rolled a little better than average. You're going to have to account for that thing in future fights, especially since it's autohit. Up big bads damage to account for the nova possibility. Keep using larger number of critters when possible so he can choose to spread it around to them. Maybe up some of the hit bonuses to account for the paladin(but do over do it because of the rest of the party) and use mob tatics on him. Make him feel like a tank by standing toe to toe with the mob.
And for plots, make sure some of your big bads have a successor to carry on their master's plan. Maybe they aren't in the climatic battle, or maybe they flee when the chips are down.
But it is cool for the players to do bad ass stuff like this now and then.
And one more tip since you may have to search for a good balance. You don't have to kill th pcs when they are down. Don't completely avoid pc death, but if you feel you way overshot the difficulty on something you feel they have reason to fight, have the creatures knock them out instead of putting them on death saves.
I forgot to say, he can only nova the wand every so often(he regains 4.5 uses per day on average). So you don't need to make every encounter in a day very difficult. One a day should sap the wand out. And don't forget if he uses all the charges there's a 5% chance it could be destroyed(roll a d20; on a 1 it is destroyed). Remind him of this danger.
Agree with what's been posted. Also have a couple things to add:
First, don't be too attached to a specific outcome for any situation/encounter. If you really need the big bad to survive, make sure they have a contingency plan. Or, as bonethug says, a successor to continue the plan. Or a higher-up boss who finds new a lieutenant to keep things going.
Second, think about Readied Actions. IMO, guards always have actions readied in order to protect whatever they're guarding. The big bad probably has a readied action, too. In this case, you could have potentially had 31 readied actions go off as soon as the PCs did anything that could be interpreted as aggressive. Wizard pulls out a wand and -- FOOMF! Fireball explodes in the middle of the party. Then 30 crossbow bolts come flying at them. Or, if they don't have ranged weapons, the guards move to stand in front of their leader to protect her. Then the wizard finishes what he was doing.
cconeus wrote:
Oh man. Yall helped me realize there is one huge thing I overlooked learning during the ton of time I've spent trying to learn all this from scratch, since ive focused mostly on reading the DMG and not the players guide. I don't know ANYTHING about combat actions. My players are doing flanks and such to get advantage, but since I had no idea how they worked I just didn't bother. Because as you're all telling me (combined of course), as they came into that room 31 things couldve just wrecked them, blasting the players hard and truly putting them in their place. The guards could've rushed in, tackling the players to the ground, overwhelming them with numbers, all beating the crap out of them. That would've taken the exact same fight and just completely reversed the outcome. Now I wasn't trying to kill the players. These guys just LIVE to break the game though. I've played a lot of D&D with them and they are very hard to predict. I've seriously had quests where instead of the local noble handing over a quest, they kill him, his whole personal guard, claim the town to themselves, hire hirelings (3e, was a lot easier and I was not the DM to stop them at the time, just playing with them as a PC) and defend the keep against an onslaught by a king. They are just as likely to murder someone as they are to take a quest, and there have really been times where the hooks just don't interest them and they force the DM to come up with a better idea to get them interested. Or they demand more loot in exchange for the mission, with an up front retainer and things like that. They are a handful, and thats how we all like to play I'm just having difficulty out witting them I'm afraid to admit. But! With all your suggestions, I think I'm going to be able to actually provide a challenge, which is all we all really want in the first place 
Since you own the DMG, make liberal use of the random encounter generation tables, and the random dungeon creation tables. You can build the story on the fly as you handle their in game consequences. It sounds like they are already pushing the limits of gear for their low level, so limit their take, and even limit their treasure to whatever you roll randomly on the treasure award tables. It might take a few more levels, but they should eventually come into line. Plus, you should get some really interesting results and stories by using the random generation tables for a lot of things. The random tables are pretty much my favorite thing about the 5ed DMG.
cconeus wrote:
Careful, though, because you can only ready one action at a time and it uses up your Reaction for that round. So, Move or Attack or Cast -- but only one of those for each creature.
Unless it's a surprise attack. Then you can get a full turn of actions. 
Sounds like a really fun group. Good luck!
Reius wrote:
Oraibi wrote:
Reius wrote:
El_Condoro wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
You should really read the PHB book through at east once if you are DM, you will come across many things that otherwise will bite you in the ass later.
You used an OPTIONAL rule of magical item creation, even then you should probably not have every item be valued at 500 gold that is bound to create trouble. It still would cost 500 gold and 40 days to make a magical item though.
You ALSO need a formula to actually be able to create a specific magical item, this formula is supposed to be one step up in rarity, so it would be considered a rare magical item. For the purpose of finding it in treasure, but probably to research as well if you so allow (which I wouldnt).
It is a BASELINE assumption that magical items are rare in the game. characters are not assumed to have any. IF they do you can assume that challenges will become easier, though your easy allowance of magical item creation destroys any credibility to this concept, there is no reason why there wouldnt be magical items on the market. You changed the fundamentals of the game, so you will ahve to wing everything pretty much.
It is ROGUE not ROUGE !
A ROGUE can only sneak attack once per turn, so not on every attack, I cant see how he could do much damage really.
FLANKING RULES are optional, and I wouldnt use them to be honest, they make creatures far too easy to hit, and the characters should have went down with flaning rules in place confronting a bunch of guards.
KI points, the monk is only having 2 of them.. no wisdom included or anything, it seems nobody really bothered to read the rules or more likely at least one or two were taking advantage of you not knowing the rules.
I do not really know how they were taking 30 guards and a witch by surprise but there was a paladin in plate armor somewhere ?
No idea how the paladin gets that final point of AC, might be fighting style. But I am shocked with the ammount of gold they seem to have to spend. FULLPLATE ARMOR, MAGICAL SHIELD, CLOAK OF PROTECTION, WAND OF MAGIC MISSILES..
I am not sure this holds up across the board, but the monk has a dex of 20.. how did they determine ability swcores ?
I am almost positive that there were a bunch of rules going out off the window or were badly applied by you, it's like any game. You need to read the rules before you start playing. That goes for players and DM. You have to decide if you want to keep playing a campaign like this for the forseeable future or better put a stop to it soon and tell them you did it all 'wrong'.
Aside from the having-3000-gold issue, which has already been noted, the other thing that I see going on is your players not understanding the item crafting rules. Before you can craft an item, you need a formula for that item, and the formula is always one step rarer than the item itself. A shield +1 is Uncommon, so its formula is Rare. (And yes, that does mean that there are no formulas for Legendary items, meaning that they can't be crafted and therefore can't exist. No, I don't understand it either, but that's the RAW.)
When I first saw the crafting rules I was like, "Whoa, that is way overpowered," and I went looking for uncommon items to craft immediately. (Googles of Night, Winged Boots, and Wand of Web are my top three favorites.) But it wasn't until later that I realized a 3rd level PC can't actually make any of these things without a Rare formula... which he won't have at third level, or maybe ever.
So anyway, I don't think your players did this maliciously, I think they just misread the rules in the same way I did, because the rules aren't written very clearly and the formula rarity is not explained in the same section as item-crafting, it's hidden 11 pages away or something like that.
wmdw45 wrote:
Unlike earlier editions, in 5e, the playing rules are in the PHB and in the Players' Basic PDF. (the text s identical between the two) and not in the DMG. So if you've only read the DMG and not the PHB, the players will walk all over you. Fun for them but less fun for you.
You can still turn the situation around though; if they have defeated the Lord of the area, they are now lords of the area themselves and have just collected a whole lot of new enemies. And financial responsibilities for structural maintenance, paying troops not to mutiny, the list is endless. Go with the flow and improvise.
Reius wrote:
Case of low level characters having WAY too much money to spend, and being able to abuse rules you are not familiar with.
By RAW, it is impossible for a character to have a 20 stat at 3rd level...unless you gave them very powerful magic items. So not sure how you are getting a +5 damage bonus.
Add to that allowing them to make magic items with their way above normal wealth and you have a recipie for disaster.
Normal wealth by character guidelines is something like 10th level before you get to start with ONE uncommon magic item.
Yeah 10 guys who are out of reach 'Help' the 10 guys that can reach your party giving them advantage = quickly unconscious party. It's basically like using kobolds....they are VERY deadly at low level. Large numbers with Advantage beats most groups easily. See the early chapters of HotDQ for examples, lol. Half of the 50ish people in our room in AL died in 1 night to kobolds. Basically every group that didn't have the sleep spell died.
SilentSin wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Oraibi wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Reius wrote:
Here's another quick addition. Give enemy spellcasters the Shield spell. It is awesome to be able to block one attack (or a volly of Magic Missiles!).
Rhenny wrote:
Reius wrote:
If all you want to do is argue, you're looking in the wrong place. I agreed with you several times and said your view is valid. So is mine. Bye.
SilentSin wrote:
"EzechielDantan wrote:
Your Rogue/Monk is NOT doing the math right.
His Nova: Sneak Attack with weapon and Flurry of Blows, using a weapon that permits both (a Shortsword is almost the only one)
(1d6 + 1d6 + mods), (1d4 + mods), (1d4 + mods) note Sneak Attack is 1 / turn, and does not carry over to the Flurry attacks
Next turn:
same as above. He has used his last ki point.
Next turn:
(1d6 + 1d6 + mods), (1d4 + mods) Martial Arts is a single unarmed strike
If he can't get Sneak Attack, he will do
(1d6 + mods), (1d4 + mods)
and he can do this All Day Every Day.
In my experience, the Monk will not hit every time - I got about 50/50 during the playtests - so he should not be dishing as much damage as you describe.
If somebody is helping him by setting up the right circumstances for Sneak Attack (fair play and good tactics) he will do better DPR.
What stats did he roll? What mods did he get from it? My +DEX Monk gets +5 to-hit and +3 to damage.
wmdw45 wrote:
One thing I would recommend to the OP, is to really dive into the way flanking works, and how strategic positioning can be used to create interesting encounters. Try and think of an encounter as more than just a room with a bunch of baddies in it. What strategy will the enemies use, and how will they get around the strengths of the players?
If the players like to spam magic missiles, give your witch defensive prepared spells that can handle a simple magic missile.
If a boss suddenly eats a lot of damage, time for her to get out of line of sight, and use a healing potion. Now the wizard has wasted his one big attack.
If the players like to spam attacks, surround them, grapple them, disarm them.
If the players like to charge your enemies, use terrain to your advantage. Place enemies on higher ground, so they can't be charged.
If your enemies stack armor like crazy, make use of armor penalties. Lots of actions are much harder with heavy fullplate, such as swimming.
BRJN, thats the right math on the rouge attacks, add it up. 2d6+5 with main attack is between 7-17 damage, then either the bonus strike for being a monk, or a ki point burned for flurry of blows. The bonus strike would be 1d4+5, which is between 6 and 9, and the flurry being an additional 1d4. Add those first two together, because he can rinse and repeat it each turn, and you have between 13 and 26 damage, with 20 being the average. he rolled a bit better than average after missing his first few strikes during the fight, and ended up hitting for 23 roughly on average if my memory serves me right (Which was overkill, because his base damage of 13 kills a guard. he basically auto kills if he hits with both strikes). And he can do up to 31 damage total with flurry of blows. It all adds up, as insane as it sounds. his max damage 2 rounds per short rest is 31, his max damage all other rounds is 26.
The wizard im conerned about though, because he used some sort of spell to maximize the damage from his wand, which is how he capped it out, or did something to increase the damage die, I don't remember what he said it was. but yeah... that one sounds fishy if none of you are familiar with any such spell that does that. especially since you all mentioned it was 1d4+1 damage x7... max that'd be 35. So I am kinda lost on that.
Just talked to him and re-read the spell, 7 charges burned on a wand of magic missle actually creates 9 bolts, not 7, because level 1 magic missile states 3 darts, 1d4+1 each, then add an additional dart for each slot higher. that means all 7 charges did 9x 1d4+1, meaning a max damage on a wand of magic missile of 45.
So my real question now is this, given the current state of their power, which is obviously far above and beyond what they should have at their level due to my mistakes as a DM, any suggestions on balancing it back out? My thoughts are this:
1. they cant get above 20 dex or 20 anything in their stats, therefore over the next few levels, their power levels should balance out on their own as long as I stop any new developments.
2. Gold gain is going to need to come down in line with what the DMG actually says. I'm not going to say how much gold they have (because I'm pretty embarassed that I screwed it up this bad) but I'd used an online generator to make it easier, and just looked at the DMG for the real treasure generation tables last night and... wow.... lets just say they are at like 10th lvl when it comes to gold in pocket now, even after all these purchases. I know they will be upset when they clear the next dungeon and only get 1/10th what they've been getting, but oh well, something has to break here unless I can find a way to deal with them being old-world billionaires at level 7. Which, I'm not opposed to at all if I can find a way to keep it balanced!
3. Increased monster capabilities. Black puddings, rust monsters, charmers/sleepers/acids/traps/etc to prevent them from all out frontal assaulting the entire hoards to death before they get their initiatives.
Anything else anyone could add to help me bring stuff back in line would be awesome
If they have plenty of gold they must store it somewhere - the local thieves' guild has got wind of it and the party is marked for special attention. A good adevnture hook and opportunity to lower the gold count.
cconeus wrote:
Try to challenge them with other things outside of combat too.
Traps with area blasts.
Mystery that they need to solve.
Cursed item and how to deal with it?
As for monsters, it looks like they need to face multiple spellcasting foes or multiple foes that can deliver area of effect damage.
I like the idea other had about grappling with multiple foes. Those assassins in the back of the monster manual look pretty good for surprise attacks or when one of the PCs is knocked prone or flanked, etc.
A few thoughts in addition to the excellent suggestions.
As other have stated, how did they get surprise?
Did the party destroy the body of the witch? If, not she may have been raised from the dead. She may have paid a high price and is now tainted by demonic power, etc and really, really hate the group now.
Or, just don't get too tied up with one BBEG.
Give your next BBEG a Brooch of Shielding.
Things like plate armor at 3rd level, 20 Dex, etc are really going to increase the party's challenge rating. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, just something you have to account for.
Something I regularly do is use other monsters as guards and "elite" troops. So for example I would have had a couple of the guards actually be Hobgoblin Warlords. You can also just increase the levels of guards using the rules from the DMG.
Your campaign sounds pretty Monty-Haulish, which is ok if everyone is having fun. If you feel like you're having a hard time coming up with threatening/fun encounters you need to talk to the group.
You have a couple of options. You can either beef up the bad guys (add a couple of points to hit and AC because they've been "specially blessed" for example), or you can agree to respec the characters to be a little more in line with the power level expected of 3rd level PCs. The latter is probably a better option, but it's kind of tough to put the genie back in the bottle sometimes.
cconeus wrote:
Earlier edition Hobgoblins had a racial ability to the tune of "When standing adjacent to one or more Hobgoblins, get +2 AC." So you can create a squad of opponents who will be so AC'ed up that they can keep the Paladin busy trading blows fruitlessly for a while.
If the PCs do not open every combat with big AoE attacks, a horde of minions should surge forwards and try to surround each individual foe. One tough guy makes an attack on the PC while the others Help him or Opportunity Attack.
In a mob of 30 minions, their lieutenant might task 3 with "Be ready to shoot bow-and-arrow at anybody who busts in the other side of the room". Then when the whole group is in the room, fall in at the end of the line. Enter the next room and guys in front repeat process. What this means to the PCs is that when they bust down the door, three arrows promptly arrive from somewhere behind that big crowd of minions. This can mess up spellcasters' Concentration checks or divert attention from The Original Plan.
Anything the PCs do to Team Monster is fair game for Team Monster to do unto them later. If a monster ever survives a fight with these PCs, his boss can later send an assassin and a Wiz1 assistant out to take down the PCs. Give THEM a "Magic Missile machine gun" on Round One. This line of reasoning also works if the PCs go back to town and brag about their exploits.
Intelligent enemies should use appropriate tactics. They should learn and adapt to the PCs, too.
BRJN wrote:
You guys rock Thanks so much for this advice, I feel way more prepared for the next session. Ezechiel sorry for taking offense, as we all know its hard to interpret things sometimes online so my reaction was uncalled for.
I did have another question, since I'm now working on trying to master these combat options so that I can fight back next time:
You can move through a nonhostile creature’s space.
In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's
space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or
smaller than you. Remember that another creature’s
space is difficult terrain for you.
Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can’t
willingly end your move in its space.
If you leave a hostile creature’s reach during your
move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained
later in the chapter.
This is the description of Moving around other creatures. Based on this, it appears that you could move into another non hostile creatures square, make an attack, then move back out (seeing as you can move before and after the attack) as long as you end your turn in an empty square. This means that those 30 guards could've possibly all taken attacks on one pc each turn, as long as they dont end their movement (for the turn?) in its space?
**Deleted upon realization that I was coming across as an obnoxious ass, which was not my intent**
A few other general encounter building ideas to buff them up a little.
Acolytes: use the spell Bless, it stacks with Hobgoblin and knight leadership to add up to 3d4 to your minions to hit numbers (along with other benefits).
Adding racial abilities to generic NPCs (half-orc crit fisher thug with savage attack). Multi-attacks help as well (thug, scout, etc).
Hobgoblin Captain, warlord, and generic NPC Knight leadership.
Brutes (bugbears, gladiators etc). additional weapon die to damage.
pack tactics for advantage (thug and guard teams).
I'll try to post more coherently later, I don't get as much time on the furums as I used to.
***Deleted because I was quoting/responding to Leugren's post... that he deleted.***
Coredump00 wrote:
This looks like a really fun thread to read... so much info.
I gotta ask: does it seem like these 3rd-level characters were WAY too powerful in terms of money, equipment, magic? Or am I being a curmudgeon?
I've DMed plenty of games ruined this way. It wasn't until later that I started coming up with *outs* so that the big bad guy could escape. Perhaps some sort of teleportation, an unexpected ally, and anti-magic zone? If you don't want to change the entire story (maybe the Witch turns out to be a minion, rather than a boss?) then you gotta bend the rules and have her live to fight another day.
DungeonKrusher wrote:
cconeus wrote:
I see a bit of a problem with the wand of magic missiles. The default doesn't assume you can craft magic items, and if you can it isn't easy.
The wand is easy to craft and doesn't cost much, what will stop the player from crafting another two, three or four wands ?
I'd suggest changing the wand to cast a magic missile spell no higher than the lvl he can cast himself and he can keep it. This is still a great boost to his spells per day. At it's current power it is too powerful for low levels.
That's how I thought wands did work(not reading but just assuming). Limiting them to the level you can actually cast would make things much more balanced. That said, you can only go nova about once every 2 days so it isn't THAT overpowered unless they just use it to nova a single creature every two days. Sucks for when you have bosses but there are work arounds for it.
There's also a 1 in 20 chance that the wand will "crumble into ashes" and be destroyed when the last charge is expended. Not a big chance, but it can happen if you're constantly using it to nova every time it fully re-charges.
bonethug0108 wrote:
30 guards in a room and none of them were actually....you know....guarding the doors? That is just bad DMing.
31 Perception checks and nobody could hear any of the PCs approaching?
No offense, but if your plan is to knock out the PCs, then it is your job to make it happen...If they killed ur whole room of people then it is your perrogative to say OK, now the REAL witch enters the room and casts XXX...if you hadnt been in such a hurry you might have noticed it was an illusion!. Even better, it was a small child hostage under an illusion to look like the witch. Congratulations, you just Murdered Death Killed an innocent victim...which as it happens was the first step in completing XXX's nefarious plot.
EzechielDantan wrote:
There is a variant on p. 141 of the DMG for wands that don't recharge. Consider using that. The extreme use of the wand by a low level character caused it to short circuit, or something.
The wand of MM recharges at dawn. Suppose dawn never comes? Stop the sun dead in the sky. At sunset, when the sun hits the horizon, it really hits the horizon with a huge bump and stops, resting on a mountain top. Monks go around telling people "I told you that would happen if you were naughty." Now it's permanently sunset, never night. Dawn never comes. Magic items never recharge. Candle makers go out of business. Nocturnal animals are very confused, hungry and dangerous. The world has suddenly changed.
cf. DMG p.26 et seq.
cconeus wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Noon wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
Regarding the changes made between Starter Set and DMG version of wand of magic missiles: It is a bit interesting that the cap as to how many charges can be spent was removed, but the second bolded statement - that you don't have to be a spellcaster to use it - isn't a change of functionality. In the DMG many of the wands state that they require attunement by a spellcaster, which is where the "you have to be a spellcaster to use this item" requirement has been moved to which means it doesn't need to be specifically stated that anyone can use a wand of magic missiles since it has become the default for magic items that anyone can use them.
I think the removal of the charge spending cap is actually smart in a way, because it encourages the player with the wand to consider using the charges less efficiently and risking destruction of the wand, where being limited to 3 charges seems more likely to encourage using the wand twice at 3 charges each and then waiting for it to recharge and thus never risking its destruction.
But then, I also think that there is more motivation to stick to only spending 1 charge from the wand at a time, and never spending the last charge, than there is to load all the charges into a single shot in hopes of taking down some potent enemy (the whole "nova" behavior is alien to me - over-spending resources is a real thing, and it leaves your character extremely vulnerable to the unexpected, which is an issue because you can't account for every potentiality).
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
SilentSin wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I find it interesting that, regardless of what the rules say you can do or can't do in 5e, we're hearing complaints like "wrecking MY game" and "pulling my hair out TRYING TO STOP them."
This is a problem because it seems like you feel that you have to stop the rest of the players from doing what they want to do when everyone in the group should instead be trying to help the other players do what they want to do.
OP, you should not only read the rules, which has already been talked about, but more importantly, it sounds to me like you need to sit down with the rest of the players and have a friendly discussion about what kind of game you all want to play. Apparently the players are interested in at least some aspects of powergaming or optimizing and it seems like you aren't as comfortable with the ease with which they're winning combats and you seem to want to make it more challenging.
What level of challenge does the group want to play with? Ask them directly.
Are they happy with how easily they're winning fights right now? If so, why aren't you happy with it?
What level of difficulty or what power level do you all want to play with?
Are you happy with how easy it is for them to win? (apparently not.)
Could you try to solicit input directly from the rest of the group on how you can make things more challenging and still have it be fun for them?
What kind of stakes are you playing for? In other words, what rewards for winning and downsides to failure would the group find acceptable? Keep in mind, there is more to this game than getting treasure or getting killed - there are many different types of stakes you can play for.
If you're not on the same page with these things, you're going to butt heads. Don't worry about breaking immersion or having spoilers when you have these discussions - you can't control anyone's sense of immersion anyway and spoilers are only spoilers if you didn't have a hand in creating the story.
Make sure you remember that this is everyone's game, not just yours, and try to promote that attitude to the other players too. It belongs to all of you and all of you should work together, using your imaginations to make the game fun for each other. Also, stop thinking in terms of trying to stop other players from doing things ... stop trying to use the rules to find reasons to say "no, you can't do that," and instead try to use the rules to find reasons to say yes to what they want to do, and then build new ideas off of that.
SilentSin wrote:
RedSiegfried wrote:
RedSiegfried wrote:
EzechielDantan wrote:
how did a third level wizard make a wand of magic missile?
cowleymen wrote:
Hey guys! Checking back in here, I appreciate all the awesome feedback and discussion going on, its really helped me up my game a lot. Redsiegfried to address your statements, first I wanted to say I do appreciate the feedback, and I've done a lot of reading through the PG over the last two and a half days to get up to speed. However as far as me stating that I want to know what to do to stop them, that is just a condensed way of saying I don't know what I can do to challenge them.
In this particular fight, I had done the math and 15 guards was supposed to be a deadly encounter for 5 3rd level characters. I threw in an extra 15 guards just in case they managed to stay up through the first 15, because as was proven during the second level quest they were quite powerful for their level as it was (this was before they created any magic items for themselves). I also threw the mage in (thats what it was, several people have called it out but in the MM the CR 6 mage with the 9th level spells was what I based this enemy on) just to make sure if all else failed, she could sleep people out and we could move on. So, in my cockiness, I had the first 15 guards approach the players. A few key things I did not do that really hurt this scenario was:
1. I did not use any combat manuvers, just simply smash and bashed them to the best of the guards abilities. When the wizard nova'd the mage, and the rogue subequently launched a spear at her, she took more than 40 damage. I couldn't have her go down like that, therefore I bumped her HP up continuously throughout the fight, stopping at 90 hp before they finally took her down (I had to draw the line somewhere, since they were going to start asking "how the hell does this caster have so much HP???")
2. The mage, still being cocky (which is really just a reflection of me being too cocky) went invisible after taking this damage, and moved around the room to better position herself out of line of sight of everyone. However, since I've never played a caster, I am unfamiliar with the spells and how they work, and I did not study beforehand because I was expecting the guards to just handle business, and her there to just stand and laugh at the players evily while they were beaten down.
3. She did not cast offensive spells during the beginning 5 rounds of the fight, while it was still looking like the guards could handle business. This plays out in an RP sense, given that the evil cult leader (which is what she was) was supremely confident that these 5 players did not pose a threat to her life. Instead, she used a sleep spell for 2 rounds, trying to knock a few players out and end the fight. This is a spell I added to her kit, just because it fit the quest. I did NOT realize that elves could not be sleeped or charmed, and again this was my failing.
After the sleep failed to take down the party, she (I) began to realize this was turning into a very bad situation. She blasted her AOE over the party, hitting a few for some insane damage (I want to say 32) but since the party focused so much on dex to improve init and dodge chances, only 2 people took the full brunt of the damage. Those two went down (wizard and barb) however on the clerics next turn, her second level prayer circle poped everyone back up to like 18 HP, allowing them all to continue the fight.
My goal is not to beat the players. Its to create a fun experience for them, and secondly for me. What I mean by how do i stop them is simply how can I compete with them to keep it challenging? I believe this has been answered through the conglomeration of all these posts, and I gotta say thank you again to all of you who helped me crawl out from under the rock I was hiding under. I'm gonna throw an example of what has happened to me in the past, in fact the last time I DM'ed in 3e, we did an epic level quest for funzies and this is what happened.
DM (me): You are standing on a highway made of air, stretching accross the plain of air. It is a 2 week ride by horseback to your destination.
Player 1: nah.
DM: nah?
Player 1 : nah, I cast plane shift, we hop into the etheral, then I cast windwalk. We get there in 20 min.
DM: oh... um... ok. On the horizon 10 min into your journey, a storm begins to brew, dark clouds block out the lig-
Player 2: no, it doesnt.
DM: huh?
Player 2: nah I cast control weather, it doesnt. in fact, its quite a beautiful day out for a stroll.
DM: oh... well ok. You arrive at your destination, the tower spirals up into the clouds far out of sight
Player 3: well...
DM: yes?
Player 3: I see forever across all plains of existance, so yeah i see that. no real point in bringing that up, just letting you know, i DO see to the top. anything cool up there? windows we can hop in?
DM: uh... no, no windows, sheer rock face.
Player 1: how thick is the rock? would a meteor shower break through?
DM: (in my head) oh my god...
It is protected my a magical aura, and impervious to magic.
Player 1: cool, lets go inside.
DM: Alright. as you guys enter the main room of the tower, in front of you is a giant pit of acid, spanning 100 feet across, 50 feet wide wall to wall, and drops down 40 feet into the acid.
Player 2: cool, we walk across it.
DM: you do?
Player 2: Well I do, not sure what everyone else does.
Player 3: I swim in it, because I'm immune
Anyways yall get the point. In the past this is how my players have informed me of their abilities. Due to work and other obligations, I just don't have time to memorize every spell every class can cast and how each class works and what they get when, so I leave a lot of those specifics to the players. As we have seen though, these guys have a blast by being overpowered. To quote the wizard, his end game goal is to be able to "transform into a t-rex and tear through to the 9th plain of hell, shredding people down the hoards with meteor storms and wish spells". D&D 5e creates a lot less of a high powered environment, but to cater to what me and my players like to play, I've had to up the magic ante. That said, the real problem is coming up with ways to keep the fights fun and challenging, while not just getting walked over. I want them at the end of the quest to be like 'holy crap, we survived that. I cant believe it." and get that sense of accomplishment from doing something truly earth shaking.
They got that from this last quest. I had a ton more planned, a whole dungeon for them to go through, but they gained enough xp from that fight to level, and they were truly wow'ed by surviving the quest, therefore it was a success. However, due to my failings as a DM, it should've been a lot harder, and very likely something that would've killed them all had i used the rules to their fullest. So its not that I WANT to kill them, or that I'm out to get the players, I just want control of the game and control of what happens, not being dictated by the players with their suprise novas that change the entire shape of the storyline. THATS what I'm looking to avoid.
Again, memorizing the basic rules of combat was a good start, I've now read each of their characters and know what they do (other than spells), I've heard a lot of great tricks and tips that will allow me to feel more in control of the game, and more confident when deciding challenges that will be appropriate to the partys high power levels.
Thanks again everyone, and I'll continue to check back in on this thread in case people have more great stuff to share with me
As a DM for nearly 30 years, I'm confused that you didn't read the phb as much as possible and relied just on the DMG to run the game. I feel that a DM should pretty much be the font of knowledge for the game otherwise these things are always gonna pop up and put a dent in your plans.
If you're writing your own adventures you have the opportunity to make encounters tailored to the weaknesses of your pcs to at least give them a fright once in a while. Ask your players which spells they have memorised so you can at least see where a speed bump might occur, make sure that any magical item is understood if it lay in the hands of a PC, and above all learn to improvise. If it was essential to the plot that the pcs are knocked out, have some hatches open up in the roof as the battle nears it's end and then have knockout bombs dropped into the room by hidden soldiers.
I think ink as long as the players seem to be running your game you are going to suffer.
Yeah monkey-xuk it was my bad. We just picked up D&D 5e, and SOMEONE had to DM, experienced or not, so I just kinda dove into the DMG while the players dove into the PG. I've realized that was a bad call, since as someone noted earlier, unlike 3e, all the stuff you need to know is now in the PG. Lesson learned!
To elaborate on this, it really went like this:
(phone call to friend) Hey did you see D&D 5e is coming out? we havent played in like 15 years!
Friend: I know! I saw! wanna play this weekend?
Me: Sure! I'll buy the books, call everyone and lets do a throwback weekend!
and 3 days later, we were off and running. Players were off and running a lot faster than I was though! I told them we were taking a weekend off so I could get my head spun on straight so that next time I'm not walking in confused, disoriented and blind haha.
Yeah the guy with the magic missile wand blew all of his magic missiles in one shot and he would have needed a fourmula to create his wand in the first place. He likely did not have a formula as you would have had to give that to him. My other question is did he take the required 20 days needed to craft the wand.
Cool I didn't wanna sound like I was putting you down. I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes. There's always another campaign to be started in the future when you have a firmer understanding of who can do what. Remember the golden rule, if the players can do it so can your npcs.
He did take the 20 days, and spend the 500 gold. As stated on a previous post, I realized my treasure generation numbers were way, way WAY off, which gave them purchasing power far beyond what they should've had. Also, the formulas were sort of fuzzy, and I didn't clarify with the players before hand exactly what those entailed. I can say for sure though, NO ONE bothered mentioning to me when they were explaining the crafting that these formulas were treated as a rarity higher than the item, because i would NOT have given them out like that had I known. They did mention patterns to be fair, but I didn't really take the time to grasp the importance of this aspect. Again, lesson learned!
Also, because a few people mentioned it (this is just a side note here) the costs of living expenses are rolled into the creation costs for crafting magic items.
With him only being able to nova once every two days its not quite as over powered. The players don't know what they are up against, so I could put up a meat shield that looks menacing enough to draw this blast out early in the quest, then move on with things that would leave his bag of tricks depleted and then they would learn to not necessarily blow everything the first fight.
That sort of happened during the second play session, the level 2 one. They confidently wasted all their daily abilities on the first fight, just nuking the first group they came across, but then found themselves struggling through the next 8 encounters without any real power. I'm sure that after a few more of those they will learn to use their resources appropriately and conservatively, so long as I keep the challenges in line with their capabilities.
SilentSin wrote:
cconeus wrote:
Noon a lot of people came up with a lot of ways to help me run it better myself, what I was mostly looking for was suggestions on what you guys would do in this situation. I realize everyone has different play styles, and not everything that was said here is going to be adapted, but everyone has been super helpful so far in providing tips and ideas that I can use to help keep up with my players. I'm not asking people from the internet to run my game for me, unless you consider such advice to be doing everything for me. But you're right, I am sort of asking what move to make next. Luckily, a lot of great people have tossed up awesome suggestions for that, and I should be all set at this point Of course if you had anything beneficial you'd like to add as well, It'd be much appreciated!
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Another way to fix things would be just to reboot everything. Be honest with the party, tell them that the gold intake is way out of wack, their stats don't jive with what characters should have at their levels, and that some magic items (like the MM wand) shouldn't have been attained so easily. Then ask them to remake their characters at the same level, with a point buy system and base gear plus 100gp each and maybe one magic item per person. If they're skeptical about it explain that if they keep playing as is, you'll have to beef everything up everything above the normal CR just to challenge them (which makes your planning a bit harder I would think.) and cut back on material rewards until things are back in line. Also stress that this is a new version, that you're still getting used to it, and that doing this would alleviate alot of problems for you as DM.
Reius wrote:
Or the wizard could have used his/her Shield spell.