Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 PoJo72 Nov 19, 2014 18:31:27	As happens now and then, the law of averages sometimes rears its head all in one night and the players roll nothing by 5s and 6s while I am rolling crits.  I had one case where a Manticore was attacking (multi-attack) and I rolled 20 on both dice.  Meanwhile the party couldn't by a roll higher than a 7.  I even swapped dice with them and the bad luck still continued continued.   It even happened on skill checks.  Just nothing was working.   I have no problem with battles being difficult, but at some point I risk a TPK from trivial monsters or at the least the battle just becomes tedious as monsters that should have been defeated in a few rounds are instead killing the party 10 rounds in and the game has bogged down.   I am not above turning the monsters into cowards and just saying, "the goblins run away", once things start to drag, but I am wondering if there are other ideas.   Any creative ways to level the playing field when the players are just having a bad night with the dice?
#2 iserith Nov 19, 2014 18:53:18	I think that if you're going to roll the dice, you have to be okay with the outcomes of success and failure. Otherwise there is no point to rolling the dice in the first place if one or both results don't lead somewhere fun. However, since the DM determines what success or failure looks like for any given die roll or conflict, he or she can set the stakes of those conditions to whatever is acceptable to the group. So step one is to always set stakes that everyone buys into and that generally means coming up with interesting ways to fail. Death can be interesting, as can a total party kill, but that's something each group will have to determine on a case by case basis. I find if you're prepared for character death in a way that keeps the players playing, it's no big deal. (Backup characters that are already "written in" to the campaign and can be brought into the action quickly are what I suggest.)   You also mention the game "dragging" at points. This is often related to the dramatic question which is the question that is being resolved in the scene. The most common one is "Will Team Adventurer defeat Team Monster?" Once that question is answered - even if there are still monsters (or PCs) still kicking - you can simply resolve the scene with the success or failure condition you set at the outset. If the dramatic question is effectively resolved, but you continue on with the scene anyway, it drags and basically becomes a grind, an exercise in doing paperwork really.   For example, the PCs are fighting some goblins and they say to the characters, "We will make you into the slaves to toil in the lands of Bargrivyek!" You have now framed for the players what failure looks like - if they fall in battle, they'll be captured and enslaved. If the PCs are mopping the floor with them and there are only a couple goblins left and the PCs are looking good, you can just say "Okay, you got this, how do you dispatch these last couple of goblins?" Then finish in narration. If, however, the PCs are getting stomped and there's little to no hope of them turning it around, you can just say "It looks like you're not going to be able to succeed here. I think the goblins make good on their promise and capture you. What do you think?" If the players agree that they won't win and want to see what happens next, finish the scene in narration and move onto the next challenge, sometime after they wake up. Presumably capture is an interesting situation to find themselves in and a fun challenge to overcome their circumstances. That's what setting interesting stakes for success and failure is all about and can help you avoid situations where the scene drags since the players are okay with either outcome (even if the characters would rather prevail!).   As you can see, thinking about the stakes of the scene and setting them up with the players is a good way to handle both issues you raise. And if you set life and death as the stakes, you have to be okay with pulling the trigger if the dice turn out bad for the characters. Otherwise, set the stakes to something else. There are many ways to lose without dying.
#3 iserith Nov 19, 2014 19:04:22	On a side note: When your players are watching their characters get smashed, do they just stand there in take it? Because retreat is an option as is surrender or parlay, among other things.
#4 PoJo72 Nov 19, 2014 19:18:03	I like the idea of define a failure beside a TPK.  If the battle starts to drag the story to a halt, I can introduce narration that changes the circumstances of the encounter.   My players are younger and do not think too far out of the box but I could have the monsters do something unexpected that changes things.   Something I will work on.   Thanks
#5 DaveDash Nov 19, 2014 19:27:33	It's pretty easy to run away in this edition (disengage) so if the dice rolls go against them, they can just get the hell out of dodge.   I personally hate any form of Deus Ex Machina in my games, and so do my players.  My players understand luck can go against them, so they mitigate this with good tactics.   We have a 'what goes around comes around' philospohy. Sometimes they have cake walked some difficult encounters of mine that I have sprung, sometimes a low XP encounter has almost wiped them. That's D&D for you, and it's that kind of dynamic we like in D&D, vs say a scripted computer game.   So long story short, check with your players to see how they feel before deciding on anything.
#6 Dreamstryder Nov 19, 2014 21:27:32	The common method is giving them a way out of a string of bad rolls that itself doesn't depend on rolls. If I cover that base, I can otherwise be merciless.   This happens so often at my table that I expect all of one player's d20s are weighted. I try not to pipe up as DM, but last game the PC frustratedly dove further into the mess, which is the opposite of what people are generally supposed to do in such circumstances. This means all I do is point out that a situation is going badly and ask the players to be considerate.   While I control what failure (including TPKs) looks like, I go with what is rolled.  If I baby the players, the game loses some sense of responsibility and feels wrong, as if over-railroaded. Pulling a group artificially from a monster's maw or introducing an NPC who shouldn't be there can take away from or conflict with the feelings I planned to give the players. Now I check things from the players' view before running it with the group.   Possible problem areas have possible helps planned. It might be perfectly logical for the monsters to want to take the party prisoner, for instance, or a large predator to be scared off from all the lights and noise of the wagons of NPCs I wanted to introduce anyway. I prefer to make players think for it; you can use a secret door to escape (if you can figure how to open it), or the person you're rescuing is a pixie, and you could ask them for magical aid.
#7 Timborama Nov 20, 2014 6:53:56	In addition to the great advice here:   Remind them that the Help action exists. It may be prudent to have the Fighter use it to help the Wizard land a critical spell that needs an Attack Roll, instead of the Fighter trying and failing to deal 1d8+4 damage.
#8 Kentus Nov 20, 2014 9:22:02	One of my players had the same problem. After realizing that he tends to roll better with advantage on both dice, he swapped to rolling 2 dice permanently, while declaring beforehand which one he'll use for the result. Makes it much better, in fact, even though there seems to be no reason to.   So you may try this, maybe you need to balance things more out. ;)
#9 Nevvur Nov 20, 2014 10:46:23	Your specific question was how to level the playing field when the actors in your scene have lopsided die rolls. The other posters gave some good suggestions, and I'd like to add that the field itself can be considered an actor, and doesn't need dice to act. Sudden environmental changes can add flavor to any encounter, and you can decide who it affects and how it affects them. The wind begins to gust, making the enemy archers' attacks almost impossible to land. An earthquake causes section of cavern wall to collapse and bury the enemy caster. A weak tree limb snaps and falls on an enemy's head, knocking him out.    The players might realize you're throwing them a bone, but they probably won't be too upset if they're getting hammered for no better reason than falling on the wrong side of the law of averages.
#10 PoJo72 Nov 20, 2014 14:39:59	Great feedback.  I had forgotten about the help action.  That is definitely something to suggest.   I will also encourage them to use their imaginations and describe some creative attack that might be worthy of advantage.  Or add an external force that maybe does not defeat monsters, but puts them at a disadvantage.   And, of course, hinting when retreat is the best option would help avoid TPKs.   Thanks
#11 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2014 19:19:16	DaveDash wrote:
(Reply to #11) AaronOfBarbaria	MechaPilot wrote:
#13 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2014 19:39:10	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#14 DungeonKrusher Nov 20, 2014 19:47:11	What I tend to do if the dice are simply ice cold is focus on helping the group on non-numerical ways, such as spells that have effect rather than a to-hit or damage element. Perhaps bolster other players, offer flanks, etc. On the topic of TPK: it sometimes helps to remind players that not every battle has to be "kill or be killed". TPK on some random encounter is as lame as it gets for a session! It's easy to be gung-home with a piece of paper, but characters need to be wise enough to realize sometimes to surrender -- or better yet, retreat strategically! As a DM, it's wise to avoid no-way-out scenarios unless necessary to the plot line somehow. I used to actually reward players who realized it was time to bug out and lick their wounds.
#15 autolycus Nov 21, 2014 7:05:32	We have a saying at our table: "Bad rolls make for great games."   Few things have been more fun for us than when a character completely botches a Diplomacy/Persuade check. Or when a rogue sets off a series of traps when trying to disarm them. Remember the begining of Raiders of the Lost Ark - when Indy rolled a "1" trying to take that statue? The following boulder pursuit scene was one of the more memorable moments in movie history.   Just roll with it (no pun intended). If an encounter starts to go south due to bad rolls, the characters should know enough to retreat.   If rolls are consistently bad, they should look into abilities and spells that require no rolling on their part. And as listed above, the Aid Other action is always available.   Too much DM interference with bad luck takes away the feeling of risk - which then takes away the thrill of reward.
#16 Timborama Nov 21, 2014 7:14:00	Autolycus, we have a similar saying:   "There's no bad time for a natural 20. OR a natural 1!"   Whenever one of these comes up, no matter what side it's on (Monster, PC, NPC, whatever), things can dynamically change. Battles can sway, conversations can be won, allies gained or lost, and the impossible suddenly become feasible (or, the player who insisted on rolling for a mundane task just broke his ankle...). All-in-all, more often then not, they create (or lead to) some very memorable moments!
#17 Lashan Nov 21, 2014 8:12:07	Use a DM's screen.  Don't let them see your die rolls.  Have the monsters roll bad, too, even if they don't really roll bad.