Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 McMechanism Nov 06, 2014 7:25:01	I've wanted to do this a couple of times in game as a DM but am always unsure how to handle it rules-wise.   PCs are talking to suspicious stranger or an enemy they have managed to (temporarily) placate. I want the stranger/enemy to do the classic 'reach for a weapon and attack' with very little warning to the PCs.   My gut instinct is that it is classed as a surprise attack. So it would be enemy's stealth vs PCs perception (not passive as they are actively looking at the enemy). Therefore, if all PCs are surprised, the enemy gets an action (his attack) and after that combat commences as usual.   Is that how you guys would run it?
#2 intently Nov 06, 2014 8:05:48	If they were in conversation (e.g., Han and Greedo) I would have the players make a group insight check vs. a deception or initiative check. If more than half or more of the players beat the check, then roll initiative as usual. Otherwise surprise attack!
#3 iserith Nov 06, 2014 8:23:45	McMechanism wrote:
#4 intently Nov 06, 2014 10:09:20	iserith wrote:
#5 Danny_Montanny Nov 07, 2014 2:50:53	If the hostile intent isn't detected, then you could definitely surprise them. Give them an Insight check against whatever Charisma skill the NPC is using. If they pass I'd give them advantage for their passive Perception against a Sleight of Hand check from the NPC. Anyone who detects he's going for the weapon isn't surprised at the start of combat. Remember, surprise is determined before initiative is ever rolled.
#6 McMechanism Nov 07, 2014 3:29:42	Very useful answers everyone. Thanks very much. What I find interesting is how many variants there are. All of your suggestions are valid and it seems it really is at the DM's discretion.   This is a skill at which I am still learning - how to use the rules and skills to adjudicate in a fun/creative way. I'm not thinking outside the box yet. I had thought there would be some 'quick draw' rule somewhere in the PHB but I love the different options you have all mentioned. Thanks again.
#7 iserith Nov 07, 2014 6:27:26	If a character is making an attack against the monster or villain in a surreptitious manner, then the adjudication is handled via the basic conversation of the game (page 3, Basic Rules).   If a monster or villain is making an attack against a character in a surreptitious manner, then the DM can say it happens full stop or can make an ability check against the PCs' passive Perception or Insight. The DM doesn't ask for the players to make rolls unless they have stated an action. Because having the DM roll against passive doesn't strike me as offering the players a chance to make a meaningful choice before they get attacked (unless you count character build as a meaningful choice), I prefer to describe what the villain is doing and ask "What do you do?" Depending on how they respond, the DM can adjudicate it with an appropriate mechanic for the situation. It might be initiative or the results of a spell as a reaction or any number of things.   It's really helpful to always have the basic conversation of the game in mind so you know what step of the interaction you're in and what to do next. A villain suddenly going for his sword is "DM describes the environment." So the next step is "The players describe what they want to do." Following that is "The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions" which may or may not involve the use of a mechanic to determine the outcome (DM's call).
#8 Timborama Nov 07, 2014 8:27:55	This is what surprise rounds are for. Roll initiative and if surprised, they draw their weapon and attack (and possibly move or whatever), next round carries as normal. If not surprised I might say they draw their weapon but then initiative happens.   But as others suggested, I'd say it's either a wash (if the NPC is getting noticably angry and finally draws his sword, no one is really surprised...) or it's an insight/perception contest vs. opposing deception/stealth (the NPC either tries to hide his intent with a knowing smile, or the NPC slowly palms a dagger from his pouch). Anyone who fails is surprised, roll initiative! This is why the surprise round is around, but not specifics on what to do with sneaky attacks. Because context matters! And that's what the DM is for ^_^
#9 Danny_Montanny Nov 07, 2014 15:56:49	Being able to adapt and make rulings on the fly is definitely a skill you'll get better at, and ultimately is what being the DM is all about. Some of the rules are harder to interpret, and so much is impossible to cover, you'll just have to use your best judgement and do what you think will work. So long as everyone's having a good time, you're doing your job.