Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 KarlB Aug 30, 2014 23:16:58	Hi folks,   Here's a question for other DMs out there:   How do you counter Quivering Palm so as to not have your whole campaign BBEG taken out in two turns. Or soon after?   From what I read in the description of Quivering Palm, the effect last for up to two weeks or so, but you can end it at any time by using an Action. And from what I see here, there's no immunity to it afterwards, so anyone surviving it will just be at risk of getting dead two turns later as the Monk will just spam it over and over, up to 6 times in the same fight, until your BBEG drops dead. Even if he has a thousand hit points.   Even dragons, with a +13 Con save (referencing the Adult Red Dragon) still have a roughly one out of three chance of dropping dead practically from the start of the fight.   I'm tempted to nerf it with a house rule, but I'd rather not do that if I don't have to.   As a DM, what would you suggest would be a good counter for it. How do you deal with a character who can spam save or die abilities like this?
#2 Macv12 Aug 30, 2014 23:45:39	Maybe make the ki cost depend on the enemy? Like, it costs nothing inherently and the base DC is 5 or 8 or so, and you can spend ki to raise the DC by 2-4 per ki point spent. So it would work well enough on very weak enemies, but you'd have to spend a lot of ki for any hope of affecting a stronger enemy.   You could also require the monk to hit again to set off the save part, instead of being able to do it at any time. This makes it a bit easier to prepare for it if you want the player to really fight for it.   I would shorten the effective time too. Two weeks? So you hit a guy, walk away for a few days, and make him drop dead in his breakfast cereal for the lulz? Not very dramatic. Picturing that ability, I see a Kill Bill-style "walk five steps then die" effect. I think 24 hours is plenty, maybe even just a couple minutes (i.e. within or just after a fight), if you're not requiring them to make a second hit to trigger the save.
#3 cannonfodder Aug 31, 2014 0:50:40	I would think killing the monk would solve the problem.   Otherwise Quivering palm reads:   When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number o f days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane o f existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d 10 necrotic damage. You can have only one creature under the effect o f this feature at a time. You can choose to end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.   Trying to insta gib the target ends the effect and then it must be reapplied.
#4 Kentus Aug 31, 2014 1:50:11	First of all, realize that a level 17th character is a force to deal with. So having a few features that seems overpowered shouldn't bother you much.   Many strong monsters have legendary resistance, they can auto-succeed failed saves. So it might be much harder to pull off than thought, especially because the monk would actually have one chance, before an Adult Red Dragon might decide to turn him to mincemeat (legendary actions, high to hit, massive damage).   And depending on your opponent, you may grant it advantage or make that ability useless, since an Air Elemental wouldn't care much about vibrations or that a colossal enemy is much better off against the special attack of a small/medium monk. You can actually use advantage/disadvantage for everything as long it seems logical, but it should be a benefit and a drawback for your players, not only one.     If you want to be a dick, you can simply sent out an Lich or other mighty undead (not too sure, if there'll be Dracolichs aut there) and when using the Palm say: "He failed on the Saving Throw. But he's already dead, so no effect."
#5 ProphetSword Aug 31, 2014 4:30:16	It only reduces them to 0 hit points, and for an important NPC, you can treat them like a player and allow someone to heal them.
#6 WhiteHarness Aug 31, 2014 6:13:44	This seems dreadfully overpowered.  I hate this even more than the new bracers of defense.  If anyone wants to play a monk in my game, they'll first have to understand that I won't be allowing this power at all.  Ick.
#7 CetteHamsterLa Aug 31, 2014 7:50:23	How overpowered it is really dpends on what kinds of con saves enemies 17+ have.  I would think most things a monk one shotting would screw up the encounter on are going to be pretty beefy.  Insta gibbin the enemies cannon fodder on the other hand doesn't seem like a major problem to me. Also you have to compare it to what they're giving up in a round to activate the ability.  4d10 plus ability mod times four damage plus the ability to stun up to 4 targets and also knocking down or pushing back two of them in exchange for taking down one weaker enemy or likely dealing 10d10 necrotic to one strong one.  A four elements monk can put out an apha strike stronger than that if they're willing to to blow 12 ki on one round. Plus the roll playing options of being able to apply it up 20 days later are really fun.  One could just throw it on an enemy who's likely to flee if they start getting hurt as insurance.  Or use it ensure that a captured minion does not betray them when being forced to lead the party to a location.  Which would effectively prevent them from spamming it every other round. At most I'd say making it only work on a specific target once per 24 hours would be sufficient.  Or mayhaps raising the ki cost of the ability significantly so that they have to be much more conservative with it's use.
#8 Captain_Kobold Aug 31, 2014 8:15:29	If you feel that its too powerful, as the DM you're always free to adjust it a bit.   Perhaps make it similar to Power Word Kill: a creature with more than 100 current HP automatically passes its save.   Or pure damage: deals 20d10 Necrotic damage if it fails its save, 10d10 if it passes.
#9 EntropyAvatar Aug 31, 2014 16:57:54	Also keep in mind that most targets that are going to be a challenge for a level 17 Monk (like an Adult Red Dragon) are going to have Legendary Resistance, so if they end up failing their save, they shrug it off up to 3x per day.
#10 Proletheus Aug 31, 2014 17:07:08	WhiteHarness wrote:
#11 1eejit Sep 01, 2014 5:07:14	How is it overpowered compared to 9th level spells and other high-level abilities?   True Polymorph will let you change the Big Bad into a brick. Permanently. Or just cast Imprisonment. Or the Cleric can just ask God to ex some machina.
#12 KarlB Sep 03, 2014 14:57:33	Well, the difference being that the above abilities or spells only work once per day at the very most. QP can be used up to *six* times in one fight. Thanks for feedback, guys! I like the option of limiting it to once per day per target. Seems reasonable to me while not nerfing it. They can still use on multiple targets, just not spam it on a single one.
(Reply to #6) austinmonster	WhiteHarness wrote:
#14 Siderealmotion Sep 04, 2014 22:32:48	Proletheus wrote: