Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MechaPilot Feb 20, 2015 22:43:30	I do a lot of homebrewing, and over the course of building my last two 5e races I've come to a conclusion about racial features that grant cantrips:   They're smoke and mirrors.   Now, I know some of you are getting ready to respond that I'm an idiot, and that cantrips are powerful abilities that are probably too overpowered for racial features, but take a moment and hear me out first.   A cantrip is an ability that takes an action to use, just like making one round's worth of melee/ranged attacks, and the rate at which cantrips scale up in damage is quite similar to the rate at which weapon-focused characters gain additional attacks: a fighter gets extra attacks at levels 5, 11, and 20; and cantrip damage scales up at levels 5, 11, and 17.  I say similar because it's not exactly the same.  For example, the fighter gets her Strength bonus to damage to each of those attacks, but the cantrip itself gets no bonus damage from an attribute modifier.     To put some numbers out there, let's look at a fighter who makes four attacks versus a 4d10 cantrip.   Fighter Assumptions: Let's say the fighter is the sword (1d8) and board type, and that she has a +4 ability modifier to damage.  By level 20, I think the cap of +5 is also reasonable, but I'm going with +4 so as not to go overboard.  I am also assuming average damage on each die, and that no critical hits have been rolled. Damage: 4x (1d8+4) = 4x (8.5) = 34   Cantrip Assumptions: I am again assuming average damage per die. Damage: 4d10 = 4x (5.5) = 22.   Now I know that making a fourth attack per round is the big capstone ability for the fighter, so let's look at fewer than four attacks.
#2 cowleymen Feb 21, 2015 0:53:59	MechaPilot wrote:
#3 cowleymen Feb 21, 2015 0:54:05	MechaPilot wrote:
#4 bawylie Feb 21, 2015 8:58:35	Also, situational. Against a fire monster, our basic cold cantrip might do more damage than 4 attacks.    Decent tool for the box. Can be defining. Not totally worthless. And Id allow swaps anyway.
(Reply to #4) Pinwarp	I agree. In a vacuum, it isn't more powerful than any other ability. What it does add, however, is versatility (Some example trade-offs: Ranged option vs Melee. Save vs AC attack. Damage resist vs Vulnerability (this could be a game changer in some fights), plus other riders, like shocking grasps "cant take reactions" rider, or viscous mockerys disadvantage, etc.   Adding a cantrip straight up, increases power. Not in a per action economy sense, but in versatility. Gaining Versatility without any balancing drawback, is a direct increase in power. IE, 2 identical fighters, once that can cast Firebolt, and the other can't. The firebolt fightter is more powerful. Not round by round, but over the long haul because he has more options, and thus more opportunities to exploit enemy weaknesses, or tactical situations.   That all said, I wouldn't say its game breaking by any means, and would probably allow it.     bawylie wrote:
#6 FrogReaver Feb 21, 2015 12:31:54	Keep in mind a cantrips damage drops   average 16.5 pre level 17  average 11 pre level 11 average 5.5 pre level 5   I can't think of any major drawbacks to giving a damage cantrip based on these numbres.   One minor issue is determining what stat the cantrip uses.
#7 bonethug0108 Feb 21, 2015 12:35:01	I think people nailed it when talking about versatility. Anything that adds more options to what you can do is better than something that adds the same thing you can already do (or increases it marginally). This is a big reason why i think people underrate the beast master. They are looking at straight damage and hp and not looking at the versatility that it brings. That and people not giving it death saves (it should most definitely get death saves). And the fact that the ranger has heal spells. It's like people want it to be another PC when that would be way overpowered.
#8 MechaPilot Feb 22, 2015 17:39:31	cowleymen wrote:
#9 ZHDarkstar Feb 22, 2015 19:07:35	For some classes with low cantrip counts like bard and druid, the racial cantrip increases your starting spell count by 1/6 and starting cantrips by half.
#10 MechaPilot Feb 22, 2015 19:11:01	ZHDarkstar wrote:
#11 ZHDarkstar Feb 22, 2015 23:04:31	MechaPilot wrote:
#12 ZHDarkstar Feb 22, 2015 23:04:35	MechaPilot wrote:
#13 Psikerlord Feb 24, 2015 1:19:16	I wouldnt pick a combat cantrip. Stuff like minor illusion, predigitiation, message, friends.... all of those are more interesting to me. If I want a ranged attack, pick up a bow.
#14 Gnarl Feb 24, 2015 12:24:46	5e is a game of roughly balanced character options. If you give one character an extra cantrip, the other players won't even notice it. Combats aren't going to be easier either.
(Reply to #13) ZHDarkstar	Psikerlord wrote:
#16 MechaPilot Feb 24, 2015 18:43:03	ZHDarkstar wrote:
#17 Mephi1234 Feb 25, 2015 5:59:13	I've gotten a lot of milage out of having Thaumaturgy on my old tiefling warlock.      That said, the Light cantrip from the aasimar has proven to be kinda silly, especially since we happen to have an all darksight party.  Dancing Lights, ala drow, is a pretty handy ability for someone that needs a distraction.   It all comes down to how useful the cantrip in question is.    Getting Mending for free is blah.   Getting Mage Hand, Prestigitation, Vicious Mockery, Friends, Guidance, or any of the other top cantrip picks is nice.   When it comes to damage, most casters just pick up the biggest damage option (like firebolt), and pick utility for the rest of the cantrips.        MechaPilot wrote:
#18 MechaPilot Feb 25, 2015 15:12:04	@Mephi1234:   You can get prof with a Con save through a feat.  Going war cleric instead of fighter gets you all the armor profs the fighter gets at first level, plus the cleric spells, cantrips, and spell slots.  Heck, if you make it the variant human, you can even pick up either warcaster or the resilience feat at first level.  Or you could go variant human with the arcane initiate feat for (if I recall correctly) 2 cantrips and a single-use level-one spell.
#19 Mephi1234 Feb 25, 2015 16:41:03	Feats are expensive, especially if you're going to be a gishy character.    Arcane Tricksters, Eldrtich Knights, Blade Warlocks, Valor Bards, Divine Strike Clerics, and even Rangers and Paladins need at least one stat for their weapon (Str/Dex), one for their magic (Wis/Int/Cha), and one for their Concentration checks.    Given that most of these classes, at best, only get a handful of attribute bumps, plus there's several other feats (Warcaster, Weapon Mastery, Mobile, Lucky, etc) that are competing for attention and the fact that we're not likely to get to very high levels.    Fighters also come with a Fighting Style - if the point is to get armor from the level dip for a pure caster, might as well grab +1AC.    Among cleric cantrips, Guidance and Thaumaturgy are the only big ones, and having a duplicate of Guidance in the party is generally redundant.   And it competes for other Concentration effects you might have up.   Thamaturgy, while nice, isn't critical for a dip.   Cleric spells are pointless - if you're playing a wizard, you will be casting wizard spells with your slots.   In short, its highly arguable.   Generally, I find that you get more bang from Fighter than Cleric, but YMMV.   Humans don't come with a racial resistance to charms, fire, or pretty much every mental effect in the game coupled with the cantrip.  They don't come with darkvision.   There are several other races in the core book - humans are the exception, not the default.
#20 MechaPilot Feb 25, 2015 17:51:30	"Cleric spells are pointless?"  Both Bless and Shield of Faith are pretty nice, and Bless does grant its bonus to Con saves.   Regarding the concentration issue, you were just praising Guidance a moment ago as a top cantrip pick.  Is conentration a problem or is it not, because you're sitting on both sides of the fence?
#21 Mephi1234 Feb 26, 2015 7:11:05	MechaPilot wrote:
#22 MechaPilot Feb 26, 2015 17:28:03	Mephi1234 wrote: