So the question was asked, the party wanted to restrain a guard they surprised and gag the guard (cover its mouth).
It was a reasonable question, but I saw no specific guides. As restraining does not prevent the target from an action, I felt this might be a bit over powered, esp vs a caster, so I made the following off the cuff rule.
If they succeeded on restraining the target by 5 or more, they had effectively gagged it.
They succeeded, and took the guard out using the suffocating rules on page 183. Because they were able to maintain the target as gagged for a continuous 3 rounds, it fell unconscious on the 4th.
Was this wrong? Is there a better way?
Now, all said, this was against a common guard, not a vital creature, so the effect was really more RPish than anything.
Seems fine to me. You effectively increased the DC because you believed the outcome was uncertain and the goal was difficult to achieve. That's fair. It's not clear how you resolved the three rounds of choking the guy out, however. Even so, they should have been able to kill a guard within 3 to 4 rounds certainly and gotten the same result. This also seems fair. I'd have probably ruled it a grapple at disadvantage for the first attack (the grab-n-gag). Then on subsequent rounds they could take actions as normal to reduce its hit points to 0 and choose to knock out the target. If during that time the target managed to break the grapple, he'd no longer be gagged. My ruling assumes there is uncertainty as to the outcome of the actions the players described.
The grapple with disadvantage for a hold and gag sounds about right. Then using standard combat to defeat him (reduce to 0) with the guard being able to attempt escape.
The two things I would look at is:
1) it's your game so I wouldn't ask if you did something wrong. Wanting input to improve is great 
2) if it was a meaningless NPC and was more a RP situation I would have given a roll with disadvantage and if it succeeded they take him out silently. There is nothing wrong with giving the players a cool easy win once in a while.
Just hit him with a non lethal melee attack?
Thanks for input.
In the example above the guard had 33 HP (6d8+6 HD, effectively HD 7), and the players had a dagger. One dagger, and their fists. They were in prison and were escaping. Plus, to be honest, I have never been happy with having to do full non lethal damage for a knockout. So I made something up on the fly. It worked, but seemed a bit wonky.
I'd like a system I feel OK using for more than just the peons, but something that will not allow them to try and knock out an orge with ease.
After thinking for a bit I considered these options:
1. (requires surprise) a blunt attack to the creature. On a successful hit, the attacker makes a CON save at 10 + Target Con Mod + (HD difference between target and attacker) = instant unconscious.
2. (requires grapple) on the following round after making a successful grapple, you can use your bonus action to choke a creature into unconsciousness. The target receives a CON save at 10 + Target Con Mod + (HD difference between attacker and target). On a failure, the target loses 1/2 of its HP in non-lethal damage. On reaching 0, the target falls unconscious. As long as the graple is maintained you can continue to choke the target. If the target successfully breaks free from the grapple, the effect ends.
In the example above, the attacker has advantage on the initial attack. The target was a 7HD guard with a CON of +1. The attacker was HD 3, so the DC becomes 10+1+4 = DC 15. Had the target been 3 and attacker was 7, it would have become DC 10+1-4 = DC 7. They did not surprise the target initially so the first option would not have worked.
If they had done option 2, they needed to first successfully grapple the target. Depending on initiative, the target could have attempted to break free. If not, then as an action you maintain the grapple, and use your bonue action to choke. Same info as before, target was a 7HD guard with a CON of +1, so initially a DC 15. Assuming the target does not break free on the next round, they could effectively knock the target unconscious on this round. If things go well it takes 3 rounds, first to grapple, then 2 (12 seconds) to choke.
I reads well, but I still fear there are gaps I need to fill for abuse. There is no point making something so complicated it is unusable, but if its too simple is gets abused.
Eeh, eh?
EDIT: Holy crap where did I learn to spell choke as choak?
Phobos wrote:
OOC, were they trying to knock him out or were they just wanting to gag him so he couldn't cry out for help?
CatLance, yes. They wanted to gag her so she could not cry for help and knock her out. Again, no armor, one weapon, they are not in the best position to fight hand to hand at the moment. They definately did not want to attract more guards in the process.
She was clearly not a participant in the knock me out party, and when they surprised her, it was done from a forward postion, not behind. They ducked into her room to avoid guards in the hall (3 weaker 9hp sort). She came out from a back room thinking her roommate had come into her room. Only 2 party members had the surprise round to act, and pounced on her.
Phobos wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why you'd make the guard tough, but then make up rules to make PC's bypass that toughness? Why not just not make the guard tough to begin with?
Was it a 'oh crap, I just sent something against the party that's way stronger than I thought it was, I gotta make up a way for them to get out of this' moment?
I see no rules to bypass the toughness. I see a DC check to to give the PCs a "chance" to bypass combat, but the guard still has to be taken care of one way or another. The DC with the level adjustment still makes it a challenge. In effect, if she were standing in a hallway, its no different than a skill check to sneak past her.
If it were the movies (or a book), they'd sneak up, hit her on the head and she'd be out, tough or not, per the story. Unless I plan to bypass the players abiltiy to influence the game, either for or agaisnt a knock out blow, I gave them an option based on the question asked, "can we grapple her and knock her out?"
The default rules say yes, by beating her repeatidly with non-lethal until shes at 0 HP. Adding an "option" to do an instant surprise knock out, or a slower choke, seemed more RP.
Phobos wrote:
Phobos wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
I agree CatLance. My thought was, if I knowingly jump into water, to hold my breath, I have thus prepared myself.
If you toss me into water, or strangle hold me, or put a pillow over my face, I am unprepared. I likely do not have a chest full of air, and do not get this advantage.
Plus, watch a movie, when is the last time a bad guy came up on someone and choked them over the course of 3 minutes, plus one round per con modifier, minumim one. Whatever show my wife was watching last night this girls lover rolled over put a pillow over her face and killed her in under 30 seconds.
I took the suffocation rules as more player based, becuase "most of us" don't want to kill our players if we can avoid it.
paulstrait wrote:
CatLance wrote:
BestNorthernDope wrote:
Phobos wrote: