Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GEBELL Aug 17, 2014 12:21:27	There are a lot of discussions over the years on rolling for attributes and the many different methods.  But I have a related question:    if you use array or point buy the highest starting stat you can have is 17 (or 18 if you are human and pick a feat - but that's one exception).     If you roll for attributes you could theoretically start with a 20....   so, do any of you cap PC's starting attributes when rolling to make characters? I'm tempted to set a cap at 17 for lvl one after application of racial bonuses.  I feel like this leaves more room for growth as attributes are picked up at 4, 8 and 12 and makes it a bit more interesting.  Also, that it balances better with CR and published adventures.     Anyone do this?
#2 Shiroiken Aug 17, 2014 14:59:50	The general rule that I've seen is that rolling has it's risks. Statistically, you should get higher than standard array and point buy. However, it is very possible to get a character much weaker than either. I've seen groups that allow rolls, then default back to point buy or array if the rolls are too bad, which makes them the minimum. I've also played in one group that set your total modifiers to be between +4 and +8 (this was 4E, but could be done with any edition). IMO, I prefer allowing either array or rolls, but you keep the rolls regardless of how bad they are (I heavily dislike point buy).
#3 silentdante Aug 17, 2014 19:05:24	GEBELL wrote:
#4 Furion_Thamior Aug 17, 2014 19:37:25	A few musings on the matter...   There are at present two major choices a DM has to make for character building: whether to use point buy or rolls, and whether to allow feats or not.   Point buy, feats allowed. You're going to see a lot of variant human characters with Heavy Armor Mastery, Resilient (Con), or one of the other +1 stat plus a minor perk feats. This allows a human to begin an "optimal" 16/16/14/10/10/8 stat array, cap out their primary attribute by 8th level, and then move on to take a feat or two more or cap a secondary attribute. Since this will be the standard for the D&D Adventurerer's League, I expect this to be some sort of the defacto standard within the online communities -- especially any emerging CharOp communities.   Rolled stats, feats allowed. These campaigns are probably going to climb up the power scale a little bit, but it also opens the field to lots of underpowered concepts becoming viable. Rolling stats means it's possible that PCs will start with 18s and 20s in their primary attributes at first level, which means PCs will be picking up more feats or capping secondaries sooner. I like my games on the higher side of the power scale, so this will be my personal pick for my games. To prevent party imbalance, I typically rule that PCs can use either the set they rolled themselves, or the set rolled by any of the other players (but assigned however they like).    Point buy, no feats. This feels kind of restrictive, and there are probably some character concepts that just aren't possible under this model. This is the "Basic D&D" assumption.   Rolled stats, no feats. This one seems to be the implied "PHB Core Model", but I'd sooner call it  "grognard core" as point buy and feats are presented as variants, not true core. Without feats to shore up some weaker concepts, this model reinforces the strong core concepts and has an "old school" feel to it. Just don't force us to do 3d6 in order!
#5 Theridion1 Aug 17, 2014 23:10:53	We stopped rolling a long time ago. 10 years or more? IMO... you have to ask yourself... why roll? The balance between players and characters is fairer with array or point buy. There is far less toe stepping when there are two melee types... and one rolled two 18s and the other has a high stat of 15... Some groups might not care... but we tend to get bothered by huge discrepencies in damage and AC and 3e and 4e DCs. Over a long campaign... dms tailor difficulties to match the party power level, and whem there is potentially large valleys between character ability... well... then it just makes it uneven. It makes some character heroes and some charavters torch bearers... ok maybe thats an extreme example, but you get my idea. I think point buy is cool, we run standard array. Reason being, if you just start everyone with an 18 or 20 in their primary attack stat... the game just gets easier or the monsters may have to be increased in number or hitpoints. In essence, you just raised the bar all around so why even raise the bar at all? We usually run campaigns for between 6 months to 2 years... so although its cute to play a low stat character for roleplay reasons, and i am sure its rewarding and memorable and all that hippy stuff :) i would rather have a flat, evenness to character ability scores. I think back when we rolled dice... we tried the following as one of our final rolling schemes. 4d6 and record number. Do that 6 times. Repeat to make a second set of 6 stats. Pick one of those sets to use. Then, you can 2 for 1 sell 2 points from one number to add 1 point to another number. Assign to attributes. Stat minimum that it can be sold down to was 8. so if you rolled 17 15 12 12 7 7 and 17 15 12 12 10 10.... yoi would select the second array. Probably drop both of those 10s to 8s and get 18, 16, 12, 12, 8, 8. In essence, after years of play and rolling... we rolled ourself into "ok. Everyone is goina have access to an 18 in your primary stat or maybe even primary two stats if you are lucky... whats going to differenciate you is those secondary abilities that give your character fault. We are all heroes amd kick butt with iur main focuses. But how bad are you going to be outside of your primary abilities? You might be horribke if you roll bad!" That kinda thing added flavor... without basically making someone play a low powered character in a party of people who hit 18s when they rolled.
(Reply to #5) Kazadvorn	Theridion1 wrote:
#7 PetardoMauriti Aug 18, 2014 10:22:18	I feel that rolling is for short one sessioned campaigns with expendable characters. Like Call of Cthulhu RPG, where insta kills are common. However there are also more stats to roll and eventually it evens itself. And there stats are not that important as they are in DnD.
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 18, 2014 10:43:44	GEBELL wrote:
#9 Drayven27 Aug 18, 2014 12:00:15	I'm currently running a small game with only 3 players and I let each of them decide for themselves which method they wanted to use, all 3 chose to roll. If someone had rolled terribly I'd probably consider letting them reroll but no one did too badly. I personally find rolling to be more fun because it can add some fun to the character. For example, our cleric ended up with pretty good stats overall but he does have a 5 in Charisma. We've decided that as a child, he's a Dwarf, he was living in Thundertree until Mount Hotenow erupted and in the aftermath he got serious burns to his face while trying to rescue his family from their burning forge. So now he has to deal with being viewed as a monster by those around him. Sure it sucks if you end up with huge disparity in character stats but I think it also coes down to the type of game you're running and whether the players are looking for more of an RP experience or mechanics.
#10 Emanuele_Galletto Aug 18, 2014 16:58:48	When running D&D 5 games, I either allow for a 30-points buy (stats begin at 8 and max score pre-modifiers is 18) or we simply do the 4d6 drop lowest six times method. However, if a character has one or more scores at 9 or lower, we allow the player to reroll one of them. If the new score is even worse, it becomes 10.   This said, if a player rolls something like 16, 15, 14, 12, 9, 8... we usually agree he'll keep the two low scores since the others allow him to kick butt.
#11 DaBeerds Aug 18, 2014 18:37:54	My standard ability score system (from previous editions) is:   1. 4d6 drop the lowest die 2. roll 7 times drop the lowest total score 3. if the player does not like the array of six stats he/she can scrap them once for free and at the DM's (namely me) discretion after that (but I am generally lenient).  But once scrapped there is no going back. 4. arrange to taste 5. point shifting allowed:  - first shift is 1:1 (one point from a stat for one point to another) most do this  - second shift 2:1 (two points from a stat for one point to another) some do this  - third (final shift) 4:1 (four points from a stat for one point to another) few do this 6. cap of 19 after racial modifiers 7. recommend but do not require a sub 10 stat (every hero in legend and myth has a flaw, so IMO should D&D PCs)   But I thought in 5e the upper limit for a level 1 character was 15 in any stat pre racial modifiers.  Maybe that's just in the basic rules.  I have not seen the PHB rules yet.  Or maybe I read thats ection wrong.
#12 GEBELL Aug 19, 2014 1:06:43	thanks for all the input.  After talking with my players we went with 4d6 drop lowest, do this for two separate 'arrays' and pick between the two.  At the last second I said that the 'standard' array in the PHB would be a 'floor' anyone could take, but it seemed unlikely.    Well, one player rolled so poorly that he chose the standard array, and TWO players ended up with a '6' - which is... interesting.  (and yes the arrays with the 6's were clearly better, the other options ahd nothing above 13).  It was an amazing disaster of rolling.     I also capped any attribute at 18 after racial modifiers.  Which had an interesting impact.  The dragonborn sorcerer rolled an 18, but didn't want to 'waste'  his +1 charisma by putting it there, so he has 16 charisma and 18 constitution.
#13 Uldred Aug 23, 2014 11:19:55	Rolling is what the game is all about, I feel that using a point buy cheats me out of rolling more dice.  Also rolling that 18 is just as exciting as rolling the natural 20 IMHO.  Have always allowed my players to roll two sets of 7 results dropping the lowest and then choosing which set they like.  Since AD&D and 2nd Ed we have always rolled.
#14 MadBlue Sep 03, 2014 6:50:48	For 5e I'm going to have players generate their ability scores this way: All ability scores start at 6 and the player adds two numbers from a pool of:  1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5   This can be used to create the average "4d6 drop the lowest" array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9, so it seems more reasonable to me than the default 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 in the book, and gives everyone the same number of points to build their characters with (regardless of how they build their characters, they'll have the same total ability points and average score).   I really don't like rolling for ability scores or HP because I feel that these are things players should have more choice over, and they should be able to count on a level of a particular class giving them a set number of HP. They can't count on always being able to hit an enemy, make a saving throw or climb a wall - that's the point where I think the dice should be rolled.
#15 Kallas Sep 03, 2014 5:52:08	I find point buy to be vastly a vastly superior method of character creation: you have the control over what your character can do and allows you to build a concept into a proper, fully fledged character.   Rolling is incredibly bad, in my mind, because there is no way to rectify the imbalances between one player rolling stupidly high and one rolling stupidly low (GM fiat is obviously there, but then why not just give everyone the same high stats?) What is the purpose of rolling? Why is it better? It achieves nothing but randomness: if you like randomness for your character, why not make a variety of arrays through point buy and randomise which one you use? Then at least you are always going to be on the same level as your other players!   Anecdotally, my group never rolls; invariably one player (I mean specifically one certain player) will roll high, he just always does, while either myself or one other particularly unlucky player will roll low. That is just what happens to luck in our group and that's pretty much why we never roll when we have the option not to.   Why is point buy more useful? It stops players from getting burned by dice and feeling inferior.
#16 blake_marlowe Sep 03, 2014 8:43:40	i've toyed with the idea of having all players roll, 4d6, arrange to taste, then vote on which array everyone uses.
#17 onceMoreIntoBreech Sep 03, 2014 8:47:05	I never understood 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll if [X]. If you want stats that range from 8-18, just use 2d6+6. The statistical average of perfectly random dice is going to be 13 (instead of 11.5-12.5 which is average range depending how you spend points in point-buy or 10.5 which is the unweighted statistical average of perfectly random 3d6 (I forget how far adding an extra die with "drop the lowest" moves the average)), you won't have to reroll for "unplayable" characters, and you get the "fun" of random stats.   (I personally find rolling randomly is a crapshoot since most d6s have 31% of coming up 1 instead of 1/6 of coming up every/any number. Even casino-grade d6s have 19% of coming up 1 instead of 1/6.)
(Reply to #16) feartheminotaur	blake_marlowe wrote:
#19 Timborama Sep 03, 2014 10:20:14	I (and also all of the group) like rolling for stats to give individual flair. That said, with how 5e is turning out with bounded accuracy and such, I feel that rolling an 18 is MUCH more impactful than in 4e (where it seemed almost required to have 16+ in a main stat). So what I was planning on doing, and yes, I know it's "complicated" but this is still an experiment:   When they roll for stats the best they can "roll" is a 16 (pre racial boosts). Better than standard array or the 5e point-buy, but not über as I mentioned above Anything ABOVE a 16 gives you "floating" points to add to a bad roll, optionally. Floating points can't get you above 10 (I've always hated getting ability penalties. I'd rather take 3 tens than a 9 and two 13's!). Optional so if you WANT 8 Int, you got it! No more re-rolling of the lowest stat, so it's just a flat 4d6 six times (I used to do 6x4d6, drop lowest, for abilities, and they could roll one more time to replace the lowest ability if they wanted). If you don't like your numbers, scrap them ALL and start over
(Reply to #19) Tzepish	I like the randomness of rolling, but I hate the imbalance. I was considering a variant to rolling - something I've been calling Balanced Rolling:   1.) Roll your stats as described in the player's handbook. 2.) Take any number above 15 and reduce it to 15. 3.) Take any number below 8 and raise it to 8. 3.) Using the point buy rules, calculate the total amount of points your array costs.    3a.) If your total is equal to 27, you are done.    3b.) If your total is below 27, add to it (without subtracting anything) until it equals 27.    3c.) If your total is above 27, subtract from it (without adding to anything) until it equals 27.   This would result in point-buy legal characters, but still retain the unpredictability of random rolls. Some players will have high highs and low lows, and other players will have more middling scores across the board, but they will all theoretically be balanced.
#21 intensetional Sep 03, 2014 12:23:18	Why would you make someone play an entire game with a gimped character? What is the point? I will never make anyone roll for their attributes in my games. Its like asking someone to mow your lawn and then cutting off a leg.
#22 TheLyons Sep 03, 2014 14:18:25	Here are my rules for attributes.   No rolling, period. Also, no variant humans as they can get +2 to any stat, including Wisdom which NO other class can get, or they could get any feat, and I just can't stand the fact that one race gets more of the really powerful feats than any other race. Not saying it's OP, it's just "too versatile". I also don't allow drow, but that's because almost all of my players are new and eventually I'll allow drow. Literally everything else in the PHB is allowed, so my restriction list is quite short.   Regular point buy, with the 27 points.   After the point buy, we add +1 to any one stat. This allows ANY race/class combination to start with a 16 or 17 in their main stat. No one is forced to start with a 15.   Rules on that bonus stat point, you can't raise anything above a 17 and you can't use it to get two 17s. Also, only one score below 10 (mainly trying to avoid min maxing as one dude always tries to get three 8s if I allow it and come the crap on, three 8s? What twist of fate led to you being born with a few insanely high stats and three 8s?)   After allowing this, I have got some surprising characters being made by my players.   1. Tiefling Barbarian/Paladin - He started life (and his first few levels) as a barbarian, yet was destined to be a paladin, and eventually becomes a paladin of vengeance. He's writing out a backstory now to explain this.   2. Dragonborn Fighter/Monk, dex based - He's going battlemaster and way of the open hand, so he'll have a lot of fighting options but the really interesting part is a dragonborn going dex based.   Tiefling gets +2 Cha and +1 Int Dragonborn gets +2 Str and +1 Cha   Tiefling does get great use of Charisma as a paladin, but not very much use of the Int. He's not using the extra stat to boost Charisma, but Strength. He would have only started with a 15 Strength otherwise, but now can get a 16. However, the Dragonborn would never have been able to start with above a 15 Dex, requiring 3 different feat/ABI choices to get a 20 dex, whereas now he only has to do 2 (like one who starts with a 17).   I know for a fact both wouldn't have chosen these had they not been able to get at least a 16 in the stat they wanted. Therefore, so far this has allowed two of my players to feel comfortable choosing an oddball race/class combo they normally would not have and I LOVE that.   I know the adding a bonus stat does increase the power of the characters, and when I mentioned this in the general discussion forums I had a plethora of posters telling me how terrible an idea it was because of that sole reason. Yes, I know it's not included in the math but neither are magic items. I don't mind my players being slightly more powerful than the math was based on.
#23 evil_warlock Sep 03, 2014 14:31:59	We have stopped rolling since the last edition. This has been something that I have always disliked either as a player or as a DM because we always ended up with characters with unreasonable stats. This gets even more pointed when you have two players with the same class. Add in the fact that most people will be tempted to help the unlucky player a little bit because, lets face it, we are really here to have a friendly game and have some fun. We don't want any of our friends feeling left out. The result will usually be overpowered characters or too much time lost in trying to restore character balance. So, lets just use points and customise the stats according to taste and be done with it because we want to start playing sooner than later. then again, this might not be a problem for someone else. Plus it is less disruptive for the DM.   Regardless of personal preferances, I think this has been more of a problem since 3rd ed and onwards due to the way that almost all stats have an impact now on skills or abilities. In older editions you could get away with one or two good or almost good stats that were class related and dump everything else on the rest.
#24 CorwynnMaelstrom Sep 03, 2014 16:48:33	To answer the original question: you should set a cap if you want to. What you need to do is decide what to do if someone exceeds the cap. Do they freely place the points beyond the cap elsewhere? (Can be used to min/max hit evens, etc.) Do they "lose" the points? (Potentially penalizies good rolls.)   Point buy systems allow people to place stats exactly as they need them. Roll systems are much more likely to end up with "orphan" odd numbers in stats the character doesn't need. It's wholly possible to have quite a few more stat points from a roll, while having the same modifiers as a point-buy character.   That fact should be taken into consideration by anyone considering capping their characters whyile using rolls.   ***   Now, for actual 5e gameplay using rolled stats, all I can say is that two (fairly robust, and tweaked slightly to account for greater numbers) encounters in HotDQ took out all the party's spells in spite of them (5 of the 6 at least, as the 6th is an NPC squire who is still young and in training) having attributes which would have required more than 27 points to buy.   These characters might have a +1 to hit, a +1 to damage, a +1 armor class, a +1 save...it's not, in the grand scheme, going to make a huge amount of difference if you're using a +5 (16/17 attribute +proficiency) or a +6 or even a +7.   20's are going to be rare. I didn't have a single player out of the five roll an 18. If a single player in a party has a +7 mod instead of a +5, it's really not making a huge amount of difference. They can still miss, they can still be hit, and they can still be killed. The Ambush Drakes alone do 11 damage if they manage surprise if you DON'T roll.   (I roll damage. They can do up to 19 non-crit, which will outright kill, not drop, a lot of the squishier characters. An average crit from them is 22, and they can do enough on a rolled crit to outright kill any level one character with any combination of stats and feats! Human Barbarian with 18 or 19 Con and Tough feat will *still* die instantly on a high roll crit!)   My experience with the system using rolled stats (which I want to point out are RAW, without any caps, just so we all remember that we're playing a game where this is considered the default method of play in private groups) has thusfar been that it is dangerous enough to not be worried about cakewalks just because a couple characters have some +4 stat mods.
#25 Gaglug Sep 03, 2014 18:10:43	Rules for my table:   Stats are generated by rolls only, no point buy allowed.  Stats are rolled in the open in front of the DM, no "rolling up" at home.     Values are then assigned to whatever stat is wanted.  (No straight-through rolls unless we're doing an oldschool hardcore night, then stats are rolled in order). You live with your rolled stats, high or low.    Yes, the other guy rolled better than you.  So what.   I have an intense dislike for point buy systems.   All character builds become cookie cutter if you use point buy.   With point buys there is a min/max "Best stat build" for every class, and everyone takes that build.  Yawn.  No thanks.   I like having some characters with significantly high or low scores.  I like the fact that if we have 2 human fighters in the group they won't have the exact same STR, CON, and DEX between them.   It makes every character unique and fun to roleplay.     If you're going to let your players roll for stats, then let them roll.   Don't punish players with a stat cap for rolling high and forcing them to lower high rolls.  Because if you're doing that, then you should arguably stat cap them from rolling anything too low by giving them extra points for low stats.  And if you're doing that, you might as well just assign what stats your players are allowed to have...which is point buy.
#26 Noon Sep 03, 2014 19:39:26	Some time I'm planning to have a pseudo stat buy, where you choose your value - but then you roll 3d6 for each one, no assignment. If you get above the stat buy, you keep the roll. If you get below the stat buy, you keep the stat buy.
#27 Kallas Sep 04, 2014 14:48:07	Gaglug wrote:
#28 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 15:12:53	I know I'm not the only one who, when rolling attributes, says that players can trash them and start over if they're garbage. But it really sounds like it o_O   (I understand why, to an extent, because there might be "that guy" who comes in with 2 18s because he took the time to do it. But he could've just lied to begin with...)
#29 ankiyavon Sep 04, 2014 15:27:17	I use the Hackmaster rolling rules in general.  Haven't done it for 5E yet, but I probably would.     Start by rolling stats as normal for the game (this is 3d6 for HM or 4d6d1 for 5E).  You can do in order or not, it would depend on the game/group.   When you have your stats, look at them.   -If your highest stat is 12 or lower, reroll.  (For 5E, I would probably change this to 14 or lower, since you're rolling 4d6d1 instead of 3d6.) -If you have two or more stats that are 5 or lower, you may reroll.  (You might not want to; for example if you roll 4 18's and 2 5's, you probably want to keep that.)     The basic idea is to have reroll rules that create a minimum playable character, but everything other than that is random.
#30 Psikerlord Sep 04, 2014 17:16:33	Kazadvorn wrote:
(Reply to #28) AaronOfBarbaria	Timborama wrote:
(Reply to #27) Gaglug	Kallas wrote:
#33 Centauri Sep 06, 2014 9:19:36	evil_warlock wrote:
#34 Centauri Sep 06, 2014 9:26:48	Gaglug wrote:
#35 Centauri Sep 06, 2014 9:39:55	Psikerlord wrote:
#36 blake_marlowe Sep 06, 2014 11:19:37	i am increasingly of the shared rolls view.   i do want to point out something: advocates of point-buy are trying to establish parity iamong the players. i feel this distinction is being overlooked by those who dismiss point-buy.
#37 Kallas Sep 06, 2014 15:53:25	Gaglug wrote: