Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alcarin May 31, 2015 14:55:51	I have a PC wood elf rogue with the sniper feat. He stays on the edge combat hiding behind things and sometimes in complete darkness as the cleric and the fighter in the group has the light source. Baddies go after them most often.    When he attacks he shoots once and then hides.    How am I supposed to DM this?   I am allowing it since I think it's fair but not sure if I'm being too easy. Do creatures get advantage or bonuses knowing there is a sniper behind the meat shields? What rules am I missing. I think maybe some mechanic tips would really help me out. I do believe I am getting it right mostly but not sure.    Thanks in advance! -John
#2 iserith May 31, 2015 15:47:24	Alcarin wrote:
#3 OoftaMeg May 31, 2015 16:21:30	There are many, many long threads on this and how to rule.  You'll probably get a different answer from different DMs.   Trying to avoid another rules-lawyery argument here, I'm just going to say how I rule.  You can't hide from someone that can see you unless they are distracted.  Once you attack, your target knows where you are.   The way I generally rule on this type of thing is that the rogue can normally pop out of cover and fire a shot (with advantage) but then needs to find different cover.  They need to try to circle the target, or at least fire from different locations.  Sniping from the same spot over and over again doesn't buy anything.  Just because you are hidden, the enemies don't develop amnesia. If you're hiding behind the single tree in an otherwise empty meadow, the enemy knows you're behind the tree after you attack.   In addition, not all enemies are going to just stand in a line waiting to be killed.  They will often send out scouts to flank and get the sniper, or simply disengage and retreat to a spot where they can't be continuously sniped.  This is going to vary significantly based on situation of course.   You say that the wood elf is frequently far in the back ... but what are they fighting?  A creature with darkvision can see past any current light source.  It would also be odd if they were always in a situation where the wood elf could be far to the rear and in darkness.  If you're doing dungeon crawls, it seems odd that they have line of sight.  If doing wilderness, don't they fight during the day?  Same with urban. So sometimes the sniping would work, perhaps even on a fairly regular basis.  But a lone rogue far off by himself is a very tempting target and possibly putting himself into significant danger.    You know your group, if they're having fun with it you're good to go.  If you're not sure you may want to chat with them individually off line and see what they think.
#4 Alcarin May 31, 2015 19:46:38	One of his maneuvers when in darkness in a dungeon crawl or at night is staying further than 60' away since most creatures with darkvision have it only at 60'. He uses the light source of the party to see his targets. Is that legal? I think so... It makes sense. I do throw line of sight issues at him. I do send other baddies after him. Drow or even Umberhulk... I have had tricks. The darkvision limit doesn't really apply if he is shooting from the dark into the light, right? Within reason. I think I'm doing that right. I do like the implication that if he shoots from a square, he cannot use it again to gain advantage. That seems fair. Maybe if he rotates from several trees, pillars or piles of rubble he could return to a previous square/location... In that case maybe they get advantage on their perception... Not sure.
#5 iserith May 31, 2015 19:54:26	Alcarin wrote:
#6 Psikerlord May 31, 2015 20:52:38	From memory, darkvision lets you see normal in the dark, so it is not dim light for those enemies I think(?). In any case, I would not allow the wood elf to hide in dim light - it would need to be some tangible/physical  natural obscurement in my game (foliage, rain, etc).   Frankly i very much dislike the special hiding rules for halflings and wood elves, and have houseruled it to simple prof at +2 in stealth instead. Keeps all this midcombat hiding nonsense at bay (yes yes, different playstyles and all that, some folks love that kind of mechanic, but I'm not one of them).
(Reply to #5) Alcarin	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #6) Alcarin	Psikerlord wrote:
(Reply to #8) FrogReaver	Alcarin wrote:
#10 Uriad May 31, 2015 23:06:48	Corners, tree's, any form of obstructions are going to be your friend.  Also, ambushes where the group is flanked and he is stuck 60+ ft away from his group.  It is very seldom in an outdoors situation that the are going to have perfect line of sight everywhere.  Start playing in more compact areas, dont let every encounter be outside in a field or inside in a massive room.  Add in obstructions, cover, etc.   I would also recommend area effect spells.  He is 60ft down a dark hallway? Sweet this caster throwing fireball can easily hit him, or maybe faerie fire since it will completely line his form and make him easy to hit.   Maybe enemies are inside a room at the end of the hall and they are sitting around hard corners waiting for everyone, the melee characters go in but there will literally be no shot for the archer.  Drop a darkness spell inbetween the melee's and the rogue so that he has to go up.  Have one of the enemies close the door to whatever room the melee's have entered and stand infront of it so that the players can't open it.   Add in rules that if he tries to communicate with the team while 60ft away every creature in the surrounding area can hear it, aka surprise rounds on the group.   If you really want to they can have advantage for their first roll but after that the enemy are expecting arrows to be coming from the darkness and since the enemy can see (thanks to the light that the rogues allies are using) they can see the arrows coming in.  Just because you can't see the source doesn't mean you can't expect a repeat attack from an area and honestly you wouldn't expect the first attack but after one arrow flies over your head or hits you with a sneak attack you can bet that the enemy would expect a second attack from the same area, whether they can see the source or not.   If you really want to get crazy use his exact tactic against the group, or do my personal favorite of having ranged characters that will shoot their bows and then drop prone each turn so all ranged attackers have disadvantage against them.   There are all sorts of random ways that you can work this against him, don't look at the rules to do it, look at your encounter design.
#11 Rya.Reisender Jun 01, 2015 5:46:43	If you are in complete darkness (+far enough not to be seen with darkvision), then you gain advantage on every attack even without hiding. It's listed separately in the rules: "by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness."   Enemies will probably try to turn that situation around, though. Like by throwing a torch into your direction or something or casting the light spell if available.   As for hiding... you need to make a ruling about how long "hiding" prevails. I personally allow to hide+attack to gain advantage. This is still at the expense of using a bonus action (if you have a feat that allows to use it as bonus action) and you can only use one bonus action per round. And each time you hide again you need to be successful on your stealth check, so it has a chance to fail too. I think that's a fair tradeoff and not overpowered.
#12 iserith Jun 01, 2015 5:57:56	Alcarin wrote:
#13 Alcarin Jun 01, 2015 22:43:09	Thanks everyone for your input. I will apply lots of it in game!!! Pretty cool!!!