Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 StarTwister Jun 29, 2015 19:02:03	I have a player on my campaign who is making and "electro master" his plan is 6 lvls storm sorcerer and 14 tempest cleric.  He however does not want to use a melee weapon, rather he wants to use Shocking grasp as his main attack.  He wants to send people flying by punching them in the face with electricity which he can do, but he wants to make it so he can combo that with the shield mastery shove.  what do you think is that too much?
#2 iserith Jun 29, 2015 19:09:50	So basically he wants to do something like a melee attack that does 1d8 lightning damage plus 1 bludgeoning damage, pushes the target 5 feet as a bonus action, and then the target can't take reactions? It sounds fine to me for the cost of a feat.
#3 Macv12 Jun 29, 2015 19:46:50	I think they just want to cast a cantrip as normal, then use a bonus action to shove, which their feat lets them do when taking the Attack action.   IMO there's no good reason to tie the bonus shove to an Attack action; I see no harm in allowing it as a free-floating bonus action whenever.
#4 Thoughts_My_Aim Jun 30, 2015 2:55:07	Strict RAW, a melee spell attack is not a melee weapon attack. But as other people have pointed out, this specific instance seems perfectly reasonable.
#5 StarTwister Jun 30, 2015 7:19:38	Ok, so the premise is ok but now let me add a few more details. Since he's got 6 levels tempest cleric as of the last session so he now gets thunderbolt strikes. He wants to make the show action at the same time as the attack, justifying it as a supercharged electro punch to either send them the 10 feet from thunderbolt strike and knock them prone, or up to 20 feet when adding the shove action to the 10 feet of thunderbolt strike. In addition he's hoping to add some bludgeoning damage when he slams them into walls or other creatures and use his charisma modifier instead of strength in the shoves strength contest, justifying it as the electricity doing the show rather than muscles. It sounds completely bad ass to be honest but that might be pushing things a bit to far. This kind of thing might be why there are no weapons in the DMG that deal lightning damage on every attack.
#6 iserith Jun 30, 2015 7:50:36	Shocking grasp isn't an Attack action - it's a Cast a Spell action. To get shove as a bonus action with Shield Master, the player must take the Attack action. The house rule that would be applied here is that Shield Master's shove bonus action can be used after a Cast a Spell action (limited perhaps only to shocking grasp or lightning spells in general). By doing lightning damage with shocking grasp, the tempest cleric's class feature kicks in, pushing a Large or smaller target away 10 feet. It would therefore seem reasonable to say that, with the expenditure of a bonus action, the character can hit someone with shocking grasp, throw them back 10 feet and knock them prone or shove them 15 feet without knocking them prone. Having the contest be Charisma versus Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) is a further house rule that is probably going to be okay.   Whether or not shoving a creature against a wall does damage to said creature depends on the circumstances in my view. I do not normally provide additional damage for doing this unless something about the wall is particularly damaging e.g. it's covered in rusty spikes or is comprised of searing hot iron.
#7 Coredump00 Jun 30, 2015 9:51:15	So, the changes he wants:   Allow Shield Master bonus Shove work with Shocking Grasp instead of Attack Action Allow Bonus Action Shove to happen simultaneously with Shocking Grasp spell (I assume this still uses his bonus action....right?) In doing the above, allow the 10' and 5' to happen to the same target. (15' not 20') Allow Shove to trigger off of Cha instead of Str   The extra damage from walls is a separate issue.   I see no reason to not allow the first three items.  Still uses up his bonus action, He still needs to hit *and* win a shoving contest.  Shove with cantrip isn't much worse than Shove with Attack.   I would likely change the SM feat for him to no longer work with attacks, and only work with Shocking Grasp.  I don't think I would allow the Cha/Str swap.  Hmmmm....  OR.....  change the SM Feat to no longer allow Knock Prone, and *only* allow the 5' shove, but allow Cha for the contest.  Yeah, I just thought of that, but I think I like it.   To emphasize the fiction, I would even let him use the Shield to deliver the Shocking Grasp damage.      So....  replace the first bullet point with:   ° If you cast Shocking Grasp on your turn, you may use your shield to make the Melee Spell Attack.  On a hit and before damage is resolved, you may use a bonus action to make a Cha(Athletics) check contested by the target's Str(Athletics) or Dex(Acrobatics). If you succeed, the target is pushed back 5'. This is cumalative with any other movement from the same attack.   I think that should work just fine, and give him everything he wants.   As with any House Rule, explain that all changes are probationary to make sure they don't break the game.  Thus he has a vested interest in making sure it doesn't break the game.
#8 Bloodscythe Jun 30, 2015 11:04:20	I'd just invent a new feat all together that does just that...  It can provide the shove attack that Shield Master does, but replace the other bullet points with other abilities.   I love customizing the game.  Here's a basic idea:   Spell Shield feat You use shields not only for protection, but also to deliver spell attacks.  You gain the following benefits while wielding a shield:   You can use a shield as a spell focus.   If you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged spell attack, you can instead make a melee spell attack.  If the spell grants more than one ranged attack, you can replace one of the attacks with a melee spell attack.   If you make a melee spell attack, you can use a bonus action to shove a target within 5 ft of you by 5 ft.  If the melee spell attack pushes a target, you can use a bonus action to increase the distance pushed by an additional 10 ft.   Your ranged attacks in close combat do not suffer from disadvantage.   Any spell you ready can be released if you are hit by an attack, before damage is taken.   You can use Counterspell to nullify a ranged weapon attack targetting you.  The attack is absorbed harmlessly by your shield.  Cast Counterspell as a reaction, triggered by a ranged weapon attack targetting you.  The attack doesn't have to hit you to be absorbed.       These are just some random ideas for bullet points.. I wouldn't have the feat provide all of them.  Probably just 2-3 of them.
#9 Meta4ic Jul 02, 2015 20:20:57	Back in 1st edition, we houseruled that a magic-user could cast Shocking grasp on a weapon, sheathe it and use it later that day. However, in combat, he had to actually "hit" the target (instead of "touching" it) in order to deliver the spell damage, which made the spell more convenient but less reliable since he could miss and have to try and hit again on the next round.   Thus, a minor change to the rules would make your player's move feasible without having to modify a feat or creating a new one, which is IMO a major alteration to the game.   With that enacted, i'd allow your PC to store the spell (pre-using a spellslot) on his weapon and, on a successful hit (using STR or DEX to-hit mod instead of WIS, naturally), deliver the weapon damage + spell damage + the Thunderbolt strike pushback (10'). The difficulty is raised by using the secondary stat's modifier, but it's a small price to pay, considering the "badass" move it would bring.   Now, as a DM, I'd state that the blast from the Thunderbolt strike prevents any shield bash on the same target, as it's already airborne. On another target, yes. On the same, no. Unless in your world PC could hit faster than lightning, of course.   However, as a bonus action doesn't specifically have to happen after the regular action (prove me wrong on that one; we had a long argument over that topic the other night), I could yield to a player stating that he swings both hands at the same time, touching first with the weapon (thanks to the reach being longer than the shield's). All in all, this is only a 5' difference, so the way you play it is no big deal.   Finally, I'd disallow any CHA contest for the shove (it's not an emotional move, but a real force that operates). As for hitting the wall, I would allow at best a turn with the "stunned" condition for the target, but actual damage seems a little too much, unless, of course, environment calls for it (eg. metal rods or hooks sticking out of the wall, a lit fireplace, etc.)
(Reply to #9) BadMeeple	Just wanna say to the OP that this is super bad ass.   I would allow the player to do this based on the analysis that others have given you above, but I would probably modofy the Shield Master feat to have it work with the cast a spell action rather than weapon attack.
#11 Elfcrusher Jul 03, 2015 6:35:10	He's actually taking a nerf to the Shield Master feat in a few ways: 1) Since he's presumably not actually using a shield, he doesn't get the other benefits to the feat 2) And thus he's also not getting +2 to AC 3) There's some debate on this, but the general consensus seems to be that you can take the shield smash before your attack, which means that if you win the contested ability check you get Advantage on your subsequent attack.  Since this modified version would be simultaneous, he's giving up that benefit, too   So giving him some of the changes he's requesting seems completely reasonable.
(Reply to #11) Bloodscythe	Elfcrusher wrote: