Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 scythebladex Aug 06, 2015 14:11:45	So like 20 missions into our 5E campaign I am DMing, I pitted the party against a beholder, and one of the dreaded questions came up that I did not have an answer to. It was asked by our more creative, veteran table-top player (everyone else is somewhat new, as new as you can be after saying you have played 20 missions of Dungoens and Dragons and have level 8 characters). It was one of those complicated, creative, and understandable things he was requesting that ends in "How do I roll that?"   In this case, he asked, "So I see the beholder fire a red beam that caused X effect on that target, and I want to sever that eye stalk so that he can't fire that beam anymore. How do I roll that?"   That seems reasonable to ask, but as we all know, this is what is referred to as a "called shot", which does not exist in the official rules. I argued that in a game of HP and AC, calling a shot doesn't make sense. You, as a character in this world, are always assumed to be attacking the most vital spots, like the head or chest, but the armor class represents their ability to dodge and deflect these attacks. They are always moving, so your hits often hit short of the mark, grazing them for 4 damage if you rolled poorly, or 18 damage if you rolled really well. When you do hit your mark, it is a critical hit (which we use the alternate rules of Max damage instead of double dice or double damage, and the lingering secondary effects from the DMG)   The rule in the dungeon master's guide for lingering secondary effects has the DM roll when someone does a critical hit, with results like "lose an eye", or "get a hideous scar", or "internal injury". I felt that if they are actively trying to hit one part of a large creature, they shouldn't have to wait for both a natural 20 and the DM has to roll a 1 on the lingering effects for the beholder to lose an eye stalk (which is the "lose an eye" option on the table).   So we compromised. We purused the books briefly while the other players broke and got snacks form the kitchen for the big fight coming up, and we saw the rule for Taking Cover, and decided to start there. Basically, here's how the rules we came up with work.   First, the player declares that he wants to Call a Shot. The DM then determines if this is something that can be done, or if it would fall into the normal rules of HP and Armor class, usually when it involves disabling or dismembering a limb I will allow it, but if it is just to get more damage by hitting a critical spot, I will say "that's just a critical hit. Roll a critical hit and sure you hit him there", and the rules for called shots end there  in that case. Next, I determine if the body part in question is closest by estimation to 1/2 of the enemy's entire body area (like anywhere below the waste), 1/4 of the enemy's body area (an appendage, for instance), or 1/8  or less of the enemy's entire body area. For 1/2 size targets, I use half cover rules (+2 to the AC), 1/4 size targets I use three-fourths cover (+5 AC to hit), and I made up the next category since there is no seven-eighths cover rules, so 1/8 size targets are +8 to AC to hit. These rules do not stack with cover, because the part in question is either exposed, or not exposed (either full or no cover), determined by the DM (I suppose an arm could be half exposed, but then you just adjust the estimation to bosy size based on what is exposed). In the example from before, I assigned 1/4 for the beholder's eye stalk. Of course, now the player rolls the attack. If the attack beats the adjusted AC, they make the called shot and hit the body part. If they beat the normal AC (adjusting for normal cover rules if they apply), but not the called shot adjustment to AC, then the attack only grazes the target, dealing half damage, because you were so focused on that one part it was easier to avoid your attack. Getting below the unadjusted standard AC is a miss, as per usual. On a hit, the DM now has to come up with an HP for the appendage or target of the called shot. I base this on a quick guesstimation of the called shot's % of the target's entire body mass, and use a calculater that is prepared calculate and jot that number down real quick. The DM also secretly determines if the destruction of that called shot target would have any damage immunities, weaknesses, or resistances (a long beholder's stalk would be weak against might be easier to slash off than smash/stab off or fire off with an arrow, so for the purpose of removing it, the eye stalk would have resistance to piercing and bludgeoning). Other than that, the body part being shot has the same weaknesses, resistances, and immunities as the creature it is attatched to. The Player now rolls damage. This damage is dealt to the main pool of HP, and also to the target of the called shot as the same roll. First, determine the immunities, weaknesses, and/or resistances of the main HP for the creature as normal. Next when determining the damage to the limb, figure those immunities, weaknesses, and/or resistances of the limb if any apply, not affecting the main pool of HP, just the HP determined for the called shot. Once enough damage has been done to the target of the called shot, the limb is either severed or otherwise disabled by the last attack (depending on the damage type used, I suppose). Any effects that would come from this are applied.   This worked out very well, and made the encounter much more fun, using perception to identify the limb they wanted to cut off based on the effect it used. Sometimes they would miss form the high AC, other times they would hit the wrong limb instead, and they cut off 4 of its eye stalks before winning. The beholder even tried using them before realizing they were gone and his random eye beam roll would dwindle away.   I just though I could post it here, maybe it will help out another DM that wants to try it. I recommend you don't let them use it in most situations, only when there would be a strategic advantage to aim for a specific appendage, and almost never against a humanoid (most of that I see being dealt with in the rules for AC, dodging, HP, etc like previously explained.   Some DM's like complicated rules like this, some don't. Critiques? Advice? Would love to hear it. Maybe ways you have dealt with similar situations.
#2 evil_warlock Aug 06, 2015 16:05:27	It seems a little complicated. I would have them attack at disdvantage for the called shot and then roll on the lingering injuries table twice to simulate the focused aim. If any of those two rolls was the desired result then the creature suffers the effect along with the HP loss, otherwise it is only HP ignoring any other effect resulting from the table. Less bookkeeping this way.   In your case, if any of the two rolls on the lingering effects table came up 1, the player does the normal damage and severs the eyestalk too. Otherwise, ignore any other effect from the table and just roll for damage.
#3 Godwyn Aug 06, 2015 16:26:30	Your ruling seems perfectly reasonable.  I think it is a bit too complicated myself, but then called shots just do not work well along with an abstract hp/ac system, as you yourself already acknowledged.   This is making me think of a critical hit variant though.  Everyone calls shots, and if they crit they can do either the extra damage, or apply a reasonable effect for the area they are aiming for.  May be a fun time for an assassin.
#4 MechaPilot Aug 06, 2015 17:38:21	The rule that I use for called shots is that the player has to beat the target creature's AC by five or more.  That roughly simulates disadvantage, but it also allows disadvantage to apply to the called shot if the character has disadvantage from another source (like from being poisoned or exhausted).
#5 Saeviomagy Aug 06, 2015 18:18:24	I would simply use the lingering injury rules (including requiring a crit), but instead of rolling a single time, you can choose an injury and roll twice. If you don't roll the injury you chose, no lingering injury. Oh, and I would replace the arm and leg entries with eye for a beholder. If the player complains this is too hard, ask him how often he wants his arms and legs lopped off.   Alternately I would allow other combat maneuvers to be used to temporarily disable a specific eye, similar to the effect of a successful disarm.
#6 Rya.Reisender Aug 07, 2015 2:06:41	If someone tries to do an action where the outcome is not clear, an ability check is done. The DM determines how difficulty it is to accomplish and what ability fits best.
(Reply to #6) scythebladex	Rya.Reisender wrote:
#8 scythebladex Aug 07, 2015 6:03:58	I just thought of another idea.   Perhaps something that would be more fun for a very creative DM is whenever a legendary creature fight comes up, or just any creature that has a lot of HP appears that the DM planned ahead of time, the DM could just make a customized table for Lingering Injuries, for the creature.   Things like "a random eye stalk is blinded for 2 turns", or "the beholder closes his main eye in pain, removing the anti-magic effect for 1 turn". And even if you are lucky "a random eye stalk or the main eye is permenantly disabled or chopped off". Mix that in with some less special "internal injuries" and "festering wounds" and such to be fair, and that might make these fights feel unique.   Edit: In other words, this could take the place of calling a shot. Rolling a critical hit is like calling a shot, but obviously a creature that is just a bunch of eye stalks should have  a greater chance of effecting those eye stalks than injuring his spleen, etc.
#9 iserith Aug 07, 2015 6:25:26	scythebladex wrote:
#10 Ralif_Redhammer Aug 07, 2015 7:03:16	I’d probably allow it, with disadvantage on the roll, and determine that the attack has to do a certain amount of damage to fully sever the stalk. I try to stick to the rule of always letting the PCs try something, even if it’s next to impossible. Also, if something would be awesome and creative, I’m more inclined to be lenient with the difficulty.
(Reply to #9) scythebladex	iserith wrote:
#12 iserith Aug 07, 2015 8:53:16	scythebladex wrote:
#13 Awakened_Gazebo Aug 07, 2015 11:36:01	Another possibility would be doing like in Shadowrun RP game. Where certain called shots has a damage maximum. Maybe lobbing the eyestalk off as in Iseriths example only caues 5 hp dmg to the beholder itself. Giving the player another level of dilemmas " do I attack for maximum damage or do I attack for maximum control?"
#14 Danny_Montanny Aug 07, 2015 12:09:13	Try adjudicating for a Tavern Brawler Barbarian sometime. "I want to pick up that Goblin and hit the Bugbear with it." Ummm... crap.   Its awesomely fun once you get the hang of it, though.
(Reply to #14) RedwoodElf	I don't have the MM with me right now, but doesn't a Roper have rules for attacking it's tentacles? Just assign a number of HP to each tentacle, which are separate from its base HP, and use the same rules that uses...the stalks probably get an AC bonus because they're smaller and writhing around, but that seems the simplest method.
#16 scythebladex Aug 07, 2015 13:56:46	RedwoodElf wrote:
#17 Akrean Aug 08, 2015 10:04:40	Interesting thread with lots of great advice!  Awesome advice as always Iserith!   If your worried about players doing this constantly, which may slow down the game, maybe tie called shots to an inspiration dice if you use them.  You can cash in an inspiration dice for a called shot.  Will limit the use and cause a nice trade off with some tension if it hits or not.
#18 Talgrath Aug 08, 2015 18:05:32	Called Shot was a 3rd ed feat as I recall, I probably would have just told the player "sorry, you can't".  Either that or required them to crit hit on a disadvantage.
#19 shintashi Aug 08, 2015 18:33:11	it's a called shot disadvantage, I would rule you need 14+creatures's Con modifier +max damage of the weapon (typically 6-12), and when you get to that total on that limb location, it is chopped off. You could give the creature a Dex save (vs. your attack bonus counting proficiency & stat +8) to shift the damage to some other location, but it would still take damage either way. This is basically a variant of the sword of sharpness, which is usually d8+str+14 when severing limbs.   A beholder has 18 constitution (+4), and a +2 Dex save, so it would likely fail the dex save, and require 24-30 damage to hack off a stalk.   if a creature has more than 10 of something or its really small, the damage total required to severe if should probably be 1/2, unless it is particularly tough, like a Dragon's horn.   Beholder stalks aren't very massive, probably 1-2% of their mass, but they are stringy and tough and important to the beholder, so i gave them a saving throw. I could see how a barbarian might use this system to try to break off the horns of a dragon. That would be a good story to tell in a Bar.
#20 MechaPilot Aug 08, 2015 21:07:08	Talgrath wrote:
#21 sirkaikillah11 Aug 08, 2015 22:20:09	I would make the attack roll at disadvantage a hit does damage and disable the eye for 2d4 rounds. If the attack roll beats the Ac by 5 (AC 23 for beholder) or rolls a critical the eye stalk is severed and disabled until the eye stalks grow back the next day.   I apply disadvantage on most called shots to hit rolls. On a successful called shot I would apply damage and some effect depending on what the player's intent was with declaring a called shot. Tis part is a bit of negotiation with my players. One exception to this are called shots to decapitate or instant kill shots. For the instant kill called shots I go for rolling a crit and doing enough damage to drop an enemy to zero hit points. At this point it is more about narration, "A critical hit! How much damage? Ok! Your mighty swing lops the orc chieftain's head off its' shoulder.
#22 Glimjack Aug 09, 2015 0:22:28	I'd go with the Disadvantage/Minumum HPs to sever in one blow thing that most people seem to be suggesting, but I'd add another caveat. HPs done to sever an eyestalk don't count towards damage to the creature HPs. Either they are attempting to disable the creature's eyestalk OR ateempting to defeat it traditionally. This makes the decision a more tactical choice on the PCs part where severing the stalk doesn't contribute to the general defeat of the monster.   I'd probably also consider making it a seperate action to do and thus couldn't be combined with extra attack.   I'd also consider allowing a battlemaster fighter to use Disarming Strike to temporarily "Disarm" the monster of it's eyestalk (1d4 rounds?). Either that or create a special "Called Shot" maneuvre for Battlemasters that let's them do this kind of thing easily.
#23 El_Condoro Aug 09, 2015 4:17:42	RedwoodElf wrote:
(Reply to #11) Cooperjera	scythebladex wrote:
#25 Orethalion Aug 10, 2015 18:48:57	My problem with called shots was that they were almost impossible to balance.  Too easy and it was a no brainer to use them with every attack.  Too difficult and they were almost never used.
#26 BadMeeple Aug 11, 2015 1:52:26	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #25) dave2008	Orethalion wrote:
#28 BadMeeple Aug 12, 2015 6:44:11	The Angry GM posted an article today with a called shot system for dismembering multi-part creatures. You could totally apply this to the beholder example. It's simple enough to adjudicate on the fly IMO.   TLDR: take disadvantage to execute a called shot, each body part (eye stalk, in the case of the beholder) has its own hit point total.   http://theangrygm.com/dungeons-and-dragons-and-dismemberment/
(Reply to #28) Danny_Montanny	BadMeeple wrote: