Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 KlaudisRex Feb 15, 2015 5:10:39	i have a player who made a dwarf fighter for our Lost Mines of Phandelver game, and she joined at level 2, just after the group completed the Redbrand Ruffian hideout mission in Phandalin.  She wants to come regularly (which is good) and has been playing since the days of AD&D. But like all of us, she's still a newb to the 5th edition.   So, she agreed to create a "tank" meat shield because the party needed someone to be on the front line! The party consists of mainly artillery ranged characters: a halfling cleric, elf sorceress, Dragonborn warlock, and half elf ranger.     Ok, so she made it past a few side quests and last week just finished the Cragmaw Castle, mainly by spamming the ''Dodge' action as her main tactic of choice.  This is of course fine with me, as the DM, it's the players perogative to use whatever legal actions available.   The problem is, I noticed she may be getting a little bored with it?   As a reminder, dodge is an action that gives disadvantage to enemies attacking her.  Which is a great tactic, especially when coupled together, with the Protection fighter feature that gives disadvantage to adjacent enemies trying to attack her allies.  Pretty nifty, in my opinion, and reminiscent of the Catch-22 Marking tactic in 4th edition.  Even though my orcs and goblins suffer through disadvantage when they target her or anyone near her!   But for a seasoned player to sit there and Dodge all night....well...lets just say, I saw her yawn.... ...then...get up and stretch.... ...then whimsically dance around a bit... ....and last week, just as she and the whole group leveled up to level 4 and are ready to bust through the Wave Echo Cave, she recused herself from the table, saying she wasn't feeling good and just wanted to go home...   now I understand the feeling of not being up to playing sometimes, so I gently let her go, wished her well, (everyone needs time off) and postponed the final dungeon til next week, allowing her to still play the important crap next week,  and just do some random encounters this week for the rest of the group, and cut things short.   i just worry that she isn't coming back?   in my battles, I add some goblin archers and shaman spellcasters to make things interesting for her and the group, so it isn't just a bunch of sucky orcs trying to get past her defensive line. you know, make things a bit more interesting...   And we all agreed to play the Starter Set as an intro adventure to get familiar with the rules and such.   I just want her to come back, have a good time, and mix it up a little bit...but If Dodge is what she wants to do,  and she enjoys it, then that's fine too, of course.   but is this really fun?      Will she come back, you think, knowing that the most optimized thing to do is Dodge?   Let me know what you think and please help me out here...
#2 iserith Feb 15, 2015 7:15:54	The only way you'll know anything is to talk to the player directly and find out. It could be she finds dodging all the time fun. It could be that she feels that what she must do even though she doesn't like it all that much. It could be that she's bored with other aspects of the game - or even annoyed - and this is her way of objecting. Who knows?   On your end, just ignore the dodging from time to time. The fighter protection fighting style is a reaction which means she only gets to pull that once when it's not her turn. So have a monster trigger that and the rest move past her and have at the rest of the party. This may show that Dodge is a viable tactic sometimes (especially in chokepoints and whatnot) but not all the time.
#3 slumgum Feb 15, 2015 7:23:59	It seems to me that really smart creatures would know to not only attack the perma dodging party member, and really dumb creatures would get frustrated never hitting their target.  I wouldn't allow a tank spamming dodge action to hold the attention of creatures.   You could also sit her down and discuss character building/multiclassing that may allow her to make more consistent use of her bonus action and reaction, which would leave more to do than just dodge.   Dodge is also worthless of spells that don't roll to attack, equip some creatures with Sacred Flame/Poison Spray cantrips and Magic Missiles.  If they aren't rolling to attack then dodge is not the optimal use of her action.
#4 Barky Feb 15, 2015 7:29:30	Ugh, I hate that situation. Nothing worse than bored players.   I suggest you just ask her, out-of-game, if this is working out for her or not. Make sure you're willing to let her change characters. Or that it's totally OK if she just decides to chop things up. Maybe let her change her fighter archetype or fighting style or swap out a feat or something so she can have fun.   -----------   A bit off-topic, but I find the whole "we need an X or Y or Z to succeed" to be one of the worst things to happen to D&D groups.   First, there's always a chance that someone has to run a class that they hate, find boring, or they don't know how to play well. Second, it limits the imagination. Few people develop no-tank strategies, or no-healer strategies, or no-caster strategies. Third, it limits DMs, too. I know I get tripped up when someone says "we want to wait until it's dark, then start a fire on one side of the keep, and then sneak in through the undergorund tunnel". DMs like to plop monsters in rooms and leave them there, waiting for the PCs to march right in. Few DMs (myself included, I always fumble on this) know how to give all-stealth groups or all-ranged groups a fair chance to win by playing to their own strengths. On that last one, I'm not saying the DM should let the parties win, I'm suggesting they open their own minds to other alternatives, and adapt their encounters to any reasonable strategies the players manufacture.
#5 Coredump00 Feb 15, 2015 8:53:21	Yep... gotta talk to her.  My guess is there is something she *should* be talking to you about, but isn't for whatever reason.  Maybe she no longer likes her concept...or something.
#6 OoftaMeg Feb 15, 2015 9:44:07	As others have said, talk to her offline.  If it's more comfortable, text/email/IM so she can be honest and think about what she thinks before she responds.   I frequently let people do rebuilds after a few games, especially when the edition is new.  People try a concept think it will be fun and then ... meh.   Whether this means she tosses the character or just does some mechanical tweaks is something you need to discuss with her.   As far as "spamming dodge", as other people have stated it may be time for you to try some different tactics.  Have enemies ignore her character if you can when she's dodging.  Remember that the protection style feature is once per round, as are opportunity attacks.  So if you have multiple bad guys, some of them run past her to get to the guys in the back row.   You can also just discuss (outside of the game) how the entire group feels about the game.  Ask for honest advice, get a feel for how the group feels like they are working together and ask if they have any suggestion.   In addition, sometimes people just have other things going on in their life.  She may be extra tired because she hasn't been sleeping well because she hasn't been feeling good.  Her yawning and leaving early may have had nothing to do with you.   Last, but not least, sometimes you simply have to accept that not every player is going to mesh with every group or every DM.  People look for different things in their games and it's a pretty significant commitment to keep up with a campaign that isn't working for you.  I've had some players stick with me for multiple campaigns, and when I was active in organized play my table was usually one of the first to fill.  Yet, through the years I've had people drop out too.  It wasn't me, it wasn't them, it just wasn't working.
#7 Archon007 Feb 15, 2015 10:10:58	My take on this post is you're all newbies to 5e which means to me is she doesn't know all the other things she can do. Also a fighter gains a lot at 3rd level which allows them more options. I think you need to talk to the player and BOTH of you need to look at the combat and class options available.   Also, you are the only one making the constant dodge ability worth while. There is no reason for a creature to attack her while she is dodging, there is no built in taunt to what she is doing. They can just move around her or by her. I think you need to change up your DM tactics and make the combats more interesting.    When running an encounter as a DM you need to not only know the stat blocks of the creatures, but much more important is the why, the goal, the approach of the enemies. That is what brings an encounter alive. Why are these goblins attacking the party on the road, what is their goal, what are they willing to risk, are they fighting to the death (if yes, why? - if no, when do they flee?), what are their tactics in the combat, what are their strengths and weakness in the combat (how can they use the strengths against the enemy - how can they limit their weaknesses).   I get the sense your combats are 6 goblins attack you - roll initiative, with nothing else. If you want interesting encounters (combat & noncombat) and engaged players the challenges need to be a lot more than a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper.
#8 KlaudisRex Feb 15, 2015 10:15:02	Thanks for the responses....   i have mixed in archers and magic users just because I like these extra combatants and want her and the group to be challenged.   and I'm more than willing to let her change class features or even a new character, but I think she knows the group needs a "tank" and I also think she believes that Dodge + Protection is a good little combo to spam, given her "role" as the groups front line.     Which is why I worry that it is boring at this point to just do that while everyone gets their pot-shots in and slays all the monsters.   But you guys could be right, it may not even be related to the game.  Yesterday was Valentines Day, and we still played, so maybe she wasn't up to it, and didn't want to cancel and let the group down, and was tied between the game and her significant other.   I talked to the group, and everyone is still interested in playing, despite being a weekly commitment.   And I will talk to her to make sure she is happy with her build and interested in continuing the campaign.  Hopefully, it's something we can get passed.   I'm just glad the LMoP is almost over, and they just need one last dungeon to complete.  It was a good little adventure, but maybe some free sandbox play will liven things up a bit.
#9 abs1nth Feb 15, 2015 10:24:31	Is spamming dodge really the best choice in your fights? If it is, then I would think about how you are playing your monster or how you are creating fighting "arenas". Why are all the monsters attacking the one that is dodging? You are saying she also has protection which is great but she can only use this once per round. Enemies could switch to ranged weapons attack allies behind her or have one make her use her reaction to protect and then attack the rest of the party.   I sincerely doubt that spamming dodge is a good strategy unless they are in a 5ft corridor with only melee enemies and she's at the front. There is quite a bit of risk/reward involved with dodge. Attack and potentially prevent an enemy from attacking entirely or dodge to mitigate damage but elongate the fight. Talk to her about that gameplay dynamic. 24/7 Dodge spamming is NOT a good strategy.
#10 iserith Feb 15, 2015 10:24:49	[quote="JasonCampos"]I'm just glad the LMoP is almost over, and they just need one last dungeon to complete.  It was a good little adventure, but maybe some free sandbox play will liven things up a bit. [/quote]   It'll only liven things up if the players have established goals for their characters that they proactively pursue while you put genre-appropriate obstacles in their way. A sandbox is really boring if the players aren't proactive and the DM isn't presenting compelling conflicts.
#11 AaronOfBarbaria Feb 15, 2015 10:38:22	I may be the only one thinking this, but why was this player fed the line of BS that the party "needs a tank"? It seems like everyone else got to play whatever it was they felt like rather than being guided towards specific character territory, and aren't even a particularly squishie group of characters unless they all chose to skip out on their defense options on purpose. I'd wager the player is less interested in this character and only agreed to play it because of being talked into it.
(Reply to #11) FrogReaver	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#13 supreme_slayer Feb 15, 2015 11:27:20	If I were a monster, even just a goblin, I would try my best to ignore the strange hero who only holds up their shield and moves around. They're not doing any damage to me, and they're hard to hit. Squishy wizard looks more fun to stab.
(Reply to #8) Coredump00	JasonCampos wrote:
#15 Psikerlord Feb 15, 2015 14:12:38	FrogReaver wrote:
#16 Miladoon Feb 15, 2015 15:22:22	Give her PC the performance skill.  Dodging now becomes a dance.  Have her describe the moves when she dodges.  Don't make her demonstrate but don't freak out if she brings a sword and starts sword dancing during the break.
#17 Noon Feb 15, 2015 21:47:45	If she's not having fun doing the dodge, then she isn't being optimal - you need to be having fun to be optimal.   Granted if the party can't win the battle if she doesn't just dodge all the time, she'd have a point.   But if she can attack or do what she'd find fun and they still win, then she should do that, not dodge.   I'd check to see if anyones laying peer pressure on her to do dodge all the time - see if anyone will go 'You're playing wrong!!!1!' if she attacks or does something else instead of dodges.   And allow a rebuild if she's sunk a feat into this.   People get really OCD sometimes about optimisation - it's as if winning the battle isn't enough. They have to be perfect!   No. You don't have to be perfect - just win the battle.
#18 pudd Feb 15, 2015 23:11:05	Well if she wants to constantly use dodge as her action, then you need to find a way to make her other actions more interesting. Mainly reaction and bonus action (preferred). Battlemaster has a few maneuvers that use your reaction and even 1 that uses your bonus action. I'd also pick up the Martial Adept feat at level 4 for the extra superiority dice and maneuver.   Otherwise, and I know it's a lot but, a 3 level dip into rogue gets you Cunning Action and either Fast Hands as the Thief or Mage Hand Legerdemain as the Arcane Trickster. This might require a reshuffle of stats to have some Dex but you should only require 13. If you normally use a 1 handed weapon and shield then it's a simple swap to a rapier and shield so you qualify for sneak attack whenever you actually do attack. If I'm reading it right, Fast Hands should almost let you pick the pockets of the people you're fighting. Same goes for Mage Hand Legerdemain but that also requires an action be used to cast Mage Hand.
#19 Glimjack Feb 16, 2015 0:53:53	One thing to consider is that if she's spamming dodge then the monster has no real incentive to attack her. Sure she can use the Protection fighting style to impose disadvantage on an enemy attacking an ally, but it's no worse of than it was attacking her to begin with anyway. Either way the monster has disadvantage, so it might as well attack the ally. That way it uses up her reaction and the next monster is free to attack her ally without disadvantage.   To help illustrate this to her, send in lots of weaker monsters that she could potentially 1-hit kill to show that sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Whilst she's spamming dodge, she not actively helping bring down the monster.   If she's spamming dodge, just ignore her as not in the fight and gang up on the rest of the party. Remeber if she's used her Protection fighting style reaction then she can't take opportunity attacks on monsters going past her.
#20 Azylynne Feb 16, 2015 4:57:05	To me, I think she is totally optimizing her character at the moment in her role as tank for the party.  I find no fault in her actions to both "roleplay" her taunts and absorb the mobs to focus in and attack her character who has the highest AC and overall manage healing resources through these fights.  She is a blessing to her group and should be "rewarded" on some level for her actions.
#21 Azylynne Feb 16, 2015 4:57:05	To me, I think she is totally optimizing her character at the moment in her role as tank for the party.  I find no fault in her actions to both "roleplay" her taunts and absorb the mobs to focus in and attack her character who has the highest AC and overall manage healing resources through these fights.  She is a blessing to her group and should be "rewarded" on some level for her actions.
#22 Azylynne Feb 16, 2015 5:12:33	To me, I think she is totally optimizing her character at the moment in her role as tank for the party.  I find no fault in her actions to both "roleplay" her taunts and absorb the mobs to focus in and attack her character who has the highest AC and overall manage healing resources through these fights.  She is a blessing to her group and should be "rewarded" on some level for her actions. As a DM, if this player is actively taunting the mobs to her characters, I would not mind having less intelligent mobs be constantly drawn to her tactics - of course, depending on the circumstances, the mobs, and whatever else is going on.  I'll reward my tanks for being active tanks. That said, within my main group, or GMs usually have a unsaid "aggro" system where if a character deals out a lot of damage, they tend to draw enemy attacks despite whatever the tank is doing (minus tanking mechanics).  Likewise, I'll often roll dice to see where mob attacks go.  The randomness adds to the thrill for players trying to avoid getting hit, and in case of a tank, I can assign greater probability for them to be attacked.  E.g., of three characters, I may roll a d8.  1-3 tank, 4-6 dps, and 7-8 the one who dealt almost no damage, and let the dice make the decision.  This may not be the most optimal attack option for mobs, but eh, it adds some hype and dynamic to combat (vs. smart intelligent mobs who are out to down the heals and dps first).  For the tanky characters, or even less combat effective characters, I'll often throw in a few minion fights, where mobs go down in one hit or so.  Often in these fights, I'll describe the mobs in such a way that the characters understand that they can go buck wild and break free from their usual shield ball formation... thus almost giving the tank a free pass to charge in and bash down the mini-foes.... does that make sense?  Ultimately though, its up to your player.  If she hates being a tank, that can be extremely boring ot grueling for her especially if she does not want to disappoint her team.  I've played some really crappy roles that I didn't want to play...like shaman heals in 4e where healing resource management was a "must" coming from the healer perspective, or even playing as a pally tank in 4e where there wasn't much mechanics to really make a tank more "tanky" except having more HP... well, as a 4e pally at least... God I just hated 4e.  Perhaps rewarding her or giving her praise once in a while for her tanking may help.  If she knows that her tanking is radically helping the party win at the end of the day, it may put a smile on her face.  I know for my tanks - their Protection coverage over the rest of the party is huge, especially each time they negate a crit against a player.  They smile and taunt me as the DM for it.  Heh.  Whatever floats their boat.
#23 BoldItalic Feb 16, 2015 5:37:42	Every player should get a time in the spotlight. There's a scene early on in HotDQ where a boss monster calls out for the party to nominate a champion to fight him one-to-one. Set up a situation like that, where she has to attack to win and the other PCs are not involved in the fight so they don't need protecting.   Set up a situation where she is blocking a narrow doorway to prevent monsters getting into the room where the others are sheltering. Maybe they've been taking a rest and she's on guard. She can take down the monsters one by one but only if she actually attacks them.
#24 SpinG22 Feb 16, 2015 15:50:40	Isn't dodge against the first attack only?
(Reply to #24) OoftaMeg	SpinG22 wrote:
#26 KlaudisRex Feb 17, 2015 7:16:54	SpinG22 wrote:
#27 iserith Feb 17, 2015 7:21:10	JasonCampos wrote:
#28 KlaudisRex Feb 17, 2015 7:29:09	iserith wrote:
#29 iserith Feb 17, 2015 7:37:20	4e is not an MMO, doesn't play like an MMO, and if you think that marking forced monsters to attack fighters as in an MMO then you are incorrect as to how that class feature works. Further, you don't have to put down another game to demonstrate your support for D&D 5e.
(Reply to #29) OoftaMeg	iserith wrote:
#31 iserith Feb 17, 2015 7:48:00	OoftaMeg wrote:
#32 KlaudisRex Feb 17, 2015 8:02:53	iserith wrote:
(Reply to #32) OoftaMeg	JasonCampos wrote:
#34 Oriet Feb 17, 2015 8:36:44	OoftaMeg wrote:
#35 Kayal Feb 17, 2015 10:03:36	Oriet wrote:
#36 Archon007 Feb 17, 2015 11:16:55	iserith wrote:
#37 Goon-for-Hire Feb 17, 2015 11:22:03	Don't fall into the trap of assuming thatif a player is bored you have to bend over backwards to make it fun.  The DM does his level best to provide the opportunity for fun, but actually having it is the PC's responsibility.  If she is beored because she is being dull and repetitive in her playing, that's her choice. There is a limit to what you can do besides asking her if she is bored and asking her what she would like to see different.   That said, I also want to point out that D&D does not require party balance, and never has.  A DM has the power to alter any module, or write his own adventures to reflect the abilities of the party he has.  If the party is shy on meat shields, then keep the havy-hitting monsters down in favour of spell-slinging enemies or archers.  If the party has no healers, stock your treasure chambers with divine scrolls, healing potions, and herbalist's kits.  No rogue?  Put a rod of detection in the treasure hoard, or skip the traps.   If she is bored, encourage her to let you know earlier in the future, and ask her to make the character she wants to play.  You can work around the gaps.   And if she insists on keeping the dwarf, consider at least arming her with some means of spending her reaction to counterattack enemies, or giving her a cool weapon that it would be a shame not to swing once in awhile.
#38 iserith Feb 17, 2015 11:23:42	Archon007 wrote:
#39 Archon007 Feb 17, 2015 13:19:48	iserith wrote:
#40 iserith Feb 17, 2015 13:31:10	Archon007 wrote:
#41 Gwaithador Feb 17, 2015 18:18:03	Hm. Clever player using dodge and protection like that. But as one poster commented, protection is a reaction, usable once on your turn and only if an ally is within 5 feet. So, set up some situations where that's not going to work.  Spread the enemy and spread the player's allies out out or, instead of a situation where the player can be passive/reacting, to succeed, she must be active/aggressive. You could do this by inflicting a horde of enemies, just enough that the players aren't tempted to run, but enough that everybody has to attack if they want to survive. How about a tougher opponent  or two who aren't really missing too much on disadvantage? Maybe with a few beasties with enough multiattacks, she realizes dodging is only delaying the inevitable, she has to fight back.  Maybe set up a scenario where the characters are separated ( like in the ziuggurat in the movie aliens vs. predator) and there's a race against time to accomplish some goal, but to get there, the character has to fight her way through, not just dodge, dash or other non-attacking actions.   As an aside, I think beginning with  Pathfinder and  4e, there was a move away from designing the game that required the standard: cleric, fighter, wizard, rogue to succeed. Now, I'm as much of a "traditionalist" as the next grognard, that I still love parties that have the "big four" but as a DM, I've found later editions of the game are better suited that you don't have to rely on having a certain character archtype to have a successful adventuring party and in turn, players are happier without that sort of party restriction.
#42 Vahnyu Feb 17, 2015 18:55:33	iserith wrote:
#43 ivstin Feb 20, 2015 22:49:40	Tanks aren't for everyone.   Suggestions that keep me from getting bored (as a tank):   Dodge is a great option when you do not know how dangerous your enemy is. Once you know, get in there and kick some ass. If you cannot deal damage, think of other creative things you can do. Perhaps take the Shield Master feat, use an Attack Action to Grapple then use the Bonus Action to Shove (feat), and place them prone. Then the bad guy is grappled and prone, meaning they cannot stand up without attempting to escape the grapple. You, the simple tank, just gave everyone in melee advantage, and all the rogues have sneak attack damage. You just made everyone's day awesome. If you do not have a cool feat, you can alternatively do the same actions above over a longer time. If you do not want to deal with that, and just want to perform a simple action... Aid action to help the rogue get advantage, or the archer who is 30 feet away. As a DM, I allow the tank players to give ranged characters advantage on targets adjacent to the tank if they spend the action to distract/give aid. Anyone who has LARPed will tell you that someone swinging a sword at your face is enough to distract you from the guy with a bow "over there." If they like to Dodge, have them run around the battle field provoking Opportunity Attacks so the other characters can move around without worrying. Just some ideas. It looks like some great ideas came up here already, but these are just my ideas after DMing/Playing tonight.   Lux et Caritas!
#44 KlaudisRex Feb 21, 2015 15:06:09	Well good news is that I talked to her alone and all the other players as well, and everyone is still up for finishing the Lost Mines of Phandelver!   She said that she fully knew that she could Attack and didn't have to only play the Dodge card, and knew when to do something else if she felt bored, no need to be concerned, she said.  I believer her because she's a seasoned D&D hack since 2nd edition.  She likes and wants to be a "tank" .  So, I'm just not gonna worry about her spamming dodge anymore, but it sure had me worried that it was interesting to see all your opinions, even though I accidental offended someone.
#45 El_Condoro Feb 21, 2015 18:55:17	People yawn for all sorts of reasons and boredom is just one of them, so be encouraged. She sounds like an asset to have at the table.
#46 Barky Feb 21, 2015 19:40:23	Problem solved, well done!