Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RedBennett Feb 24, 2015 23:48:48	DMG 287-88 has suggestions for substituting class features, which boils down to:   Help your PCs achieve in-game what they envision for their character. Generally, substituted features should be for the same pillar (RP, exploration, combat). The easiest example I have thought of would be a rogue who doesn't want to be a social-leaning assassin (who gains Infiltration and Imposter, IMHO making them more like a "spy"), but rather an assassin who is adept with using items and climbing into the king's quarters unnoticed (who gains Fast Hands, Second-Story Work, and Supreme Sneak). You could, of course, have a rogue who wants the opposite substitution, to be a social-leaning thief (more like a con-artist).   With those DMG goals in mind, has anyone allowed players to substitute RAW intra-class features, i.e., pick features from more than one archetype (I'm less interested in homebrew material right now, but also fine with learning how you went about your design process)? If so, how did you adjudicate it? Please let me know what you think of and how to improve the below system, mainly from a game balance perspective; it unfortunately sidesteps point 2 from the DMG for ease of administration.   Each class has archetype improvements at given levels (I'll refer to them as breakpoints). Continuing with the above rogue example, rogues get breakpoints at 3, 9, 13 and 17. A player must choose a "primary" archetype at the first level the class has archetypes. The player may forgo all of their primary archetype's features at a breakpoint in exchange for another archetype's feature(s), which could be gained by that archetype at an equal or lower breakpoint. If a player skips the initial feature or an improvement on a feature, they don't jump to the highest level's ability, but rather start at the beginning and fill in the gaps (see the fighter example below). Here's the rogue from the above [CL Breakpoint] [Feature][(comments and substituted feature(s))]: (3) Assassinate (9) Fast Hands and Second-Story Work (Infiltration) (13) Supreme Sneak (Imposter) (17) Death Strike   As an example, a fighter could have the following progression: (3) Combat Superiority (3rd level abilities only) (7) Improved Critical (Know Your Enemy, two maneuvers and retrain maneuver, additional superiority die) (10) Remarkable Athlete (two maneuvers and retrain maneuver, d10 superiority dice) (15) Know Your Enemy, two maneuvers and retrain maneuver, additional superiority die (The fighter can't choose, for example, to have d10s for superiority dice or Relentless because the level 7 and 10 improvements for Combat Superiority were "skipped." Similarly, the figher couldn't choose Superior Critical if Improved Critical hadn't been taken earlier.) (18) Survivor   You could do similar things with Clerics who mix and match domain-specific abilities (but don't gain spell lists), as long as the Cleric's deity grants access to those domains.   This works out pretty well for non-casting or full casting classes/archetypes, but runs into problems with limited spell progression archetypes (e.g., arcane trickster, way of the four elements). I suppose the best way to handle the progression is to require the character to start off as the casting archetype, but then delay their spellcasting improvement between each archetype breakpoint if they want to substitute? E.g., allow a monk to gain the 6th level abilities of way of the four elements, take Shadow Step at the 11th breakpoint by giving up all spell-progression from 6-11? The monk could then continue spellcasting progression from 11-17, then gain the 11th's level abilities? That seems like a very steep cost...   Unfinished thoughts about how to balance, in order of goodish to badish:   Combat oriented features can't be substituted at that breakpoint, but rather must be taken at a later breakpoint than the RAW archetype grants them Most races allow for one substitution and human allows for two Feat allows archetype substitution All substitutions "delay" your progression along the primary archetype (i.e., players don't achieve archetype capstone until 20+ with even a single substitution)
#2 cowleymen Feb 25, 2015 2:23:07	This doesnt seem to bad. I would have players know that all choices are subject to veto if found to be to powerful, and open to change if they feel underwhelmed, though I would also strongly urge against letting a player constantly switching breakpoints around between every session, as it will become a pain to keep track off.    I also feel compled to point out that I dont think it would work very well for the Wizard School based subclasses though, and I think the warlock might have a problem doing this as well, since each of the pacts are radically different.
#3 RedBennett Feb 25, 2015 9:00:47	So that's two of us who think it wouldn't be inherently unbalancing (and superiority dice with a champion's increased crit chance + GWF seems about as bad as it could get).   cowleymen wrote:
#4 Oriet Feb 27, 2015 11:19:55	Some subclasses make sense to substitute, others not as much.  I could see a rogue taking eldritch knight instead of arcane trickster to be more of a magic wielding assassin, or a cleric taking wild magic instead of a/as their domain if they follow a trickster god (though the bend luck feature would either not work or require being changed).  I would say that the character gains the subclass features at the levels indicated by the subclass, instead of when they would get their normal class's subclass features.  Features that grant bonuses (such as spells or other features) to spellcasting use the character's base class for spellcasting ability (so a cleric with circle of the land treats the spells as cleric spells); a subclass that grants spellcasting on its own (such as eldritch knight) work as worded, but if taken by a primary spellcasting class (so a druid with arcane trickster uses wisdom for druid spells and intelligence for arcane trickster spells) don't grant any additional spell slots (basically use the multiclassing tables for determining spell slots, but capped by total character level).   The subclasses I think don't work with substitution for other classes, at least without changing how some of the features work, are: barbarian's path of the berserker (no one else has rage); bard's college of valor (as non-bards don't get bardic inspiration), or college of lore for non-spellcasters; cleric's divine domains (excepting for paladin, who also gets channel divinity); druid's circle of the land for non-spellcasters; monk's way of the open hand, way of the shadow, and way of the four elements (as other classes don't get ki points); paladin's sacred oaths (except for cleric, who also gets channel divinity); the rogue's thief subclass (as other classes don't get cunning action); sorcerer's draconic bloodline and wild magic (as other classes don't get sorcery points).   Some combinations could be abused for given situations (a rogue champion would be particularly deadly with a larger crit range combined with sneak attack, since sneak attack dice also get rolled twice on a crit), so should be altered to prevent such abuse while still giving the added options and flavor (such as making sneak attack dice only double if the attack die rolls a 20, and not on crits caused by a roll of 19 or 18).  This might have to be done after a few sessions as such exploits aren't always readily appearent, so players desiring non-standard class options should be made aware such changes might take place.  It also depends on what kind of game the characeters are in for what is considered overpowered; said rogee champion would be overpowered in a combat heavy game, but outside of combat they are lacking options so campaigns that primarily focus on political intrigue and have very little combat wouldn't consider them overpowered.
#5 BRJN Feb 27, 2015 17:33:09	3.5 Champions of Valor offers substitute powers for various classes.  For example, Cleric of Kelemvor gets additional anti-undead abilities in place of some healing.  I want to put "Train the Militia" (Paladin of the Red Knight) on my "Warlord" Paladin.  All my friends suddenly gain proficiency with any one weapon - I pick Greatmaul !