Surprise round query - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 McMechanism Mar 19, 2015 2:08:20	Can someone just confirm I am playing this right? (Why is is always stealth and surprise that gets me?) Three PCs hide in a cave. Three goblins enter the cave not expecting to find anyone. The PCs want to surprise them. I have the PCs roll for stealth. If the lowest PC stealth roll beats the passive perception of the goblins, the goblins are surprised and a surprise round occurs. ON THE OTHER HAND - If two PCs beat the Goblins' PP but ONE PC does not - that one PC has blown it for the group and the goblins are NOT surprised. Is that all correct? The bit that always foxes me is if SOME members of the group beat the PP of the goblins. It seems to me that the goblins have been surprised by SOMEONE so they are surprised - even if they noticed the other PC in his clanking suit of armor. But I suppose I'm looking at it the wrong way round. Rather than one PC beating their PP and then surprising them despite the rest of the noisy PCs - I should look at it like, the one noisy PC blows it for the rest of the group. Can someone just clear this up for me?
#2 Rhenny Mar 19, 2015 4:18:54	I think you have it right. One noisy one ruins it. This gives incentive to have stealthy pcs scout or move in ahead of the clunky pcs. Surprise is also something that becomes a DM call. Remember, a DM doesn't need to call for a roll if there is no uncertainty of the outcome.
#3 Macv12 Mar 19, 2015 4:28:08	Depends on what the PCs are doing. Note that the PCs being Hidden is a separate question from whether the goblins are surprised. If they just sit around and wait for the goblins to notice them, then they're handing the goblins a chance to be alerted and pull their weapons out. No surprise. However, the PCs that the goblins didn't notice are still hidden. They get advantage on their attacks, while the PCs who failed to stealth don't. But the goblins are not "surprised" in this case. If the PCs immediately attack before the goblins have a chance to notice them, then the goblins are surprised. Everyone rolls initiative, including the goblins. Go through the initiative order as normal, but on each goblin's first turn, it can't do anything. It is then not surprised anymore after its first turn. However, this doesn't give the PCs advantage. If the goblins' Passive Perception beats a PC's stealth roll, that PC is noticed. Furthermore, if a PC comes out of hiding, they are not hidden anymore. Only a PC who remains hidden (probably by being in darkness or something) has advantage on their first attack roll. So you can surprise the goblins, yet not be hidden. It's not the stealth roll that determines surprise, it's whether the goblins had time to notice something was amiss and react. So in short, one PC being noticed may ruin the surprise, if the goblins are given time to react. The other PCs can remain hidden, but get no surprise. One PC being noticed does not cause other PCs to also stop being hidden; resolve it separately for each.
#4 Kazadvorn Mar 19, 2015 7:36:57	Something that should be on the front page of every entry... As the DM, you only need to call for a die roll if the situation demands it... In the above example, the DM should try to determine if there is a chance that the goblins WON'T be surprised and then work it out from there. If your narrative envisions that the goblins are so complacent that they don't even bother to consider that there might be a threat in the area, then just let them be surprised. Only do the die roll if there's some reason to introduce an element of uncertainty into the situation. Then, figure out what you want to simulate. If you have four PC's hiding in a room... they've had plenty of time to select good hiding places... the PC's that are skilled at 'Stealth' have had the time and opportunity to help the other PC's select a good hiding spot, they've stated that they are taking extra care not to leave tracks or other signs that someone has entered the room. At this point, I'd probably put in on the NPC's or Monsters entering the room... if at all. I might give the NPC's a small chance of spotting the PC's... like rolling a nat 20... Or, If you think it's fun... and fits the situation... let the players roll to get a botch... A natural 1 means that the PC sneezed, farted, left a backpack or glove in an obvious place or something. You can also consider the 'group check' mechanic. This sort of supports the above description. Let the whole group roll to succeed at hiding... if the majority of the players make the roll, then the players succeed as a group. This sort of simulates the PC's working as a team, helping each other choose good spots, cover their tracks, etc...
#5 DemoMonkey Mar 19, 2015 8:53:17	I copied this from the basic rules, but it's in the PHB as well. "Group Checks When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t. To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards." (Emphasis mine)
#6 pukunui Mar 19, 2015 17:09:36	DemoMonkey wrote:
#7 DemoMonkey Mar 19, 2015 16:35:52	I don't think I even implied that the use of the rule was mandatory, Pukunui. Just that it was potentially applicable. I DO use it for stealth checks, and don't find it silly at all.
(Reply to #7) Macv12	DemoMonkey wrote:
#9 Kazadvorn Mar 19, 2015 22:02:30	I might also point out that - Surprise and Hidden are not necessarily linked... The OP stated that the PC's were hiding in the cave, but surprise does not require that the PC's be hidden, per se. The PC's might be standing right in the middle of a room and when the goblins open the door... they may or may not (at the DM's discression) be surprised to see the PC's in their living room. Think of the classic surprise birthday party... Now, the PC's would have to be ready... as has been stated earlier... and attack at once to capitalize on taking the goblins off-guard. Now, that doesn't mean that a combat would inevitably ensue... Here's an example of what I mean. Somehow, the PC's know that the goblins will be entering the room in a few minutes... The PC's want to capture the goblins and question them about some recent event.... The PC's position themselves around the door, in a manner that will allow them to surround the goblins after they enter. PC's... Weapons drawn... missile weapons at the ready. The goblins enter... the PC's rush the goblins (who should have their own weapons stowed - they're not expecting trouble), surround them and shout the equivalent of "Hands up parder...we-in's got youse gallutes covered." Maybe now you might want to use an intimidate check... probably with advantage (I would) to see if the gobins throw their hands up... or if they try to pull their weapons. God I love D&D.
#10 McMechanism Mar 20, 2015 1:51:25	Thanks for the answers everyone. As always, they give me even more to think about! I did unnecessarily complicate the question by mentioning 'hidden'. I had not even factored in that some PCs would remain hidden and still get benefits etc. I just meant - 'the PCs want to surprise the goblins', but of course, the hidden factor comes into play. Thank you also Kazadvorn for pointing out that there is no surprise 'round'. I had been playing this incorrectly (4e style) and only allowing the non-surprised combatants an action on their turn and nothing else. Nice idea about the PCs potentially surprising the goblins into surrender. I like that although it may not occur to my players at this point! What I love about forums is that I get all these interesting answers and I can just clip the whole conversation into my generic notetaking app (!) and voila. Mine forever. I've built up quite a little library of useful viewpoints and opinions. Thanks people.
#11 Archon007 Mar 20, 2015 9:01:54	From my perspective as a DM you did it wrong. By the thought process of people saying if one person fails they all fail would mean you could never be surprised if you are talkng to someone else. You walk into a room you see 1 person hiding behind a box to you right does by no means mean you are NOT surprised by the 2 people you didn't see on the left. All it does mean in rules is the person who failed doesn't act in the surprise round. In your example the 2 players who succeed would act in a surprise round the player who failed would not. I think page 189 under Surprise Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.
#12 McMechanism Mar 20, 2015 10:05:42	Okay, hold on. Now I'm confused again. Let's assume no other factors affect this stituation and I as DM have decided to have the players roll to determine surprise. Example 1. PCs wait in cave for goblins to enter. Each pc rolls stealth. They get: PC1: 5 PC2: 10 PC3: 15 The goblins passive perception is 11. I thought the rule was: take the lowest stealth score (5) and this score becomes the de-facto score for the group (which I think is what Archon007 is disagreeing with). By that reckoning, the goblins notice the group - no surprise. Now lets assume we don't use the de-facto rule. PC1 and 2 are still spotted by the goblins, but PC3 BEAT their PP and so causes them to be surprised - meaning in the first round of combat the goblins do not act and all PCs get their turn. Which is correct here? Example 2. On a variation - let's say three monsters enter the room with three different passive perception scores. The PCs roll the same stealth as example 1 and the monsters PP is: M1. 9 M2. 14 M3 20 Taking the de-facto rule, Mr Clanky with stealth of 5 means the monsters are not surprised by the group. Using the individual rule no monsters are surprised by PC1. M1 is surprised by PC2. M1 & M2 are surprised are PC 3. So the first round takes place and M1 and M2 do not get to act. Which is right by RAW or is it all at DMs descretion?
#13 Archon007 Mar 20, 2015 12:31:43	McMechanism wrote:
#14 Greenstone.Walker Mar 23, 2015 20:26:41	McMechanism wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

McMechanism

Mar 19, 2015 2:08:20

Can someone just confirm I am playing this right? (Why is is always stealth and surprise that gets me?)

Three PCs hide in a cave. Three goblins enter the cave not expecting to find anyone. The PCs want to surprise them. I have the PCs roll for stealth.

If the lowest PC stealth roll beats the passive perception of the goblins, the goblins are surprised and a surprise round occurs.

ON THE OTHER HAND - If two PCs beat the Goblins' PP but ONE PC does not - that one PC has blown it for the group and the goblins are NOT surprised.

Is that all correct? The bit that always foxes me is if SOME members of the group beat the PP of the goblins. It seems to me that the goblins have been surprised by SOMEONE so they are surprised - even if they noticed the other PC in his clanking suit of armor.

But I suppose I'm looking at it the wrong way round. Rather than one PC beating their PP and then surprising them despite the rest of the noisy PCs - I should look at it like, the one noisy PC blows it for the rest of the group.

Can someone just clear this up for me?

Rhenny

Mar 19, 2015 4:18:54

I think you have it right. One noisy one ruins it. This gives incentive to have stealthy pcs scout or move in ahead of the clunky pcs.

Surprise is also something that becomes a DM call. Remember, a DM doesn't need to call for a roll if there is no uncertainty of the outcome.

Macv12

Mar 19, 2015 4:28:08

Depends on what the PCs are doing. Note that the PCs being Hidden is a separate question from whether the goblins are surprised.

If they just sit around and wait for the goblins to notice them, then they're handing the goblins a chance to be alerted and pull their weapons out. No surprise. However, the PCs that the goblins didn't notice are still hidden. They get advantage on their attacks, while the PCs who failed to stealth don't. But the goblins are not "surprised" in this case.

If the PCs immediately attack before the goblins have a chance to notice them, then the goblins are surprised. Everyone rolls initiative, including the goblins. Go through the initiative order as normal, but on each goblin's first turn, it can't do anything. It is then not surprised anymore after its first turn. However, this doesn't give the PCs advantage. If the goblins' Passive Perception beats a PC's stealth roll, that PC is noticed. Furthermore, if a PC comes out of hiding, they are not hidden anymore. Only a PC who remains hidden (probably by being in darkness or something) has advantage on their first attack roll. So you can surprise the goblins, yet not be hidden. It's not the stealth roll that determines surprise, it's whether the goblins had time to notice something was amiss and react.

So in short, one PC being noticed may ruin the surprise, if the goblins are given time to react. The other PCs can remain hidden, but get no surprise. One PC being noticed does not cause other PCs to also stop being hidden; resolve it separately for each.

Kazadvorn

Mar 19, 2015 7:36:57

Something that should be on the front page of every entry...

As the DM, you only need to call for a die roll if the situation demands it...

In the above example, the DM should try to determine if there is a chance that the goblins WON'T be surprised and then work it out from there. If your narrative envisions that the goblins are so complacent that they don't even bother to consider that there might be a threat in the area, then just let them be surprised.

Only do the die roll if there's some reason to introduce an element of uncertainty into the situation.

Then, figure out what you want to simulate. If you have four PC's hiding in a room... they've had plenty of time to select good hiding places... the PC's that are skilled at 'Stealth' have had the time and opportunity to help the other PC's select a good hiding spot, they've stated that they are taking extra care not to leave tracks or other signs that someone has entered the room.

At this point, I'd probably put in on the NPC's or Monsters entering the room... if at all. I might give the NPC's a small chance of spotting the PC's... like rolling a nat 20...

Or, If you think it's fun... and fits the situation... let the players roll to get a botch... A natural 1 means that the PC sneezed, farted, left a backpack or glove in an obvious place or something.

You can also consider the 'group check' mechanic. This sort of supports the above description. Let the whole group roll to succeed at hiding... if the majority of the players make the roll, then the players succeed as a group. This sort of simulates the PC's working as a team, helping each other choose good spots, cover their tracks, etc...

DemoMonkey

Mar 19, 2015 8:53:17

I copied this from the basic rules, but it's in the PHB as well.

"Group Checks
When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish
something as a group, the DM might ask for a group
ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are
skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t.
To make a group ability check, everyone in the group
makes the ability check. If at least half the group
succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the
group fails.
Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re
most useful when all the characters succeed or
fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are
navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group
Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can
avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural
hazards of the environment. If at least half the group
succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide
their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group
stumbles into one of these hazards."

(Emphasis mine)

pukunui

Mar 19, 2015 17:09:36

DemoMonkey wrote:

DemoMonkey

Mar 19, 2015 16:35:52

I don't think I even implied that the use of the rule was mandatory, Pukunui. Just that it was potentially applicable.

I DO use it for stealth checks, and don't find it silly at all.

(Reply to #7)

Macv12

DemoMonkey wrote:

Kazadvorn

Mar 19, 2015 22:02:30

I might also point out that - Surprise and Hidden are not necessarily linked...

The OP stated that the PC's were hiding in the cave, but surprise does not require that the PC's be hidden, per se.

The PC's might be standing right in the middle of a room and when the goblins open the door... they may or may not (at the DM's discression) be surprised to see the PC's in their living room. Think of the classic surprise birthday party...

Now, the PC's would have to be ready... as has been stated earlier... and attack at once to capitalize on taking the goblins off-guard. Now, that doesn't mean that a combat would inevitably ensue... Here's an example of what I mean.

Somehow, the PC's know that the goblins will be entering the room in a few minutes...

The PC's want to capture the goblins and question them about some recent event....

The PC's position themselves around the door, in a manner that will allow them to surround the goblins after they enter.

PC's... Weapons drawn... missile weapons at the ready.

The goblins enter... the PC's rush the goblins (who should have their own weapons stowed - they're not expecting trouble), surround them and shout the equivalent of "Hands up parder...we-in's got youse gallutes covered."

Maybe now you might want to use an intimidate check... probably with advantage (I would) to see if the gobins throw their hands up... or if they try to pull their weapons.

God I love D&D.

#10

McMechanism

Mar 20, 2015 1:51:25

Thanks for the answers everyone. As always, they give me even more to think about!

I did unnecessarily complicate the question by mentioning 'hidden'. I had not even factored in that some PCs would remain hidden and still get benefits etc. I just meant - 'the PCs want to surprise the goblins', but of course, the hidden factor comes into play.

Thank you also Kazadvorn for pointing out that there is no surprise 'round'. I had been playing this incorrectly (4e style) and only allowing the non-surprised combatants an action on their turn and nothing else.

Nice idea about the PCs potentially surprising the goblins into surrender. I like that although it may not occur to my players at this point!

What I love about forums is that I get all these interesting answers and I can just clip the whole conversation into my generic notetaking app (!) and voila. Mine forever. I've built up quite a little library of useful viewpoints and opinions.

Thanks people.

#11

Archon007

Mar 20, 2015 9:01:54

From my perspective as a DM you did it wrong. By the thought process of people saying if one person fails they all fail would mean you could never be surprised if you are talkng to someone else. You walk into a room you see 1 person hiding behind a box to you right does by no means mean you are NOT surprised by the 2 people you didn't see on the left.

All it does mean in rules is the person who failed doesn't act in the surprise round. In your example the 2 players who succeed would act in a surprise round the player who failed would not.

I think page 189 under Surprise

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

#12

McMechanism

Mar 20, 2015 10:05:42

Okay, hold on. Now I'm confused again.

Let's assume no other factors affect this stituation and I as DM have decided to have the players roll to determine surprise.

Example 1. PCs wait in cave for goblins to enter. Each pc rolls stealth. They get:

PC1: 5

PC2: 10

PC3: 15

The goblins passive perception is 11. I thought the rule was: take the lowest stealth score (5) and this score becomes the de-facto score for the group (which I think is what Archon007 is disagreeing with). By that reckoning, the goblins notice the group - no surprise.

Now lets assume we don't use the de-facto rule. PC1 and 2 are still spotted by the goblins, but PC3 BEAT their PP and so causes them to be surprised - meaning in the first round of combat the goblins do not act and all PCs get their turn. Which is correct here?

Example 2. On a variation - let's say three monsters enter the room with three different passive perception scores. The PCs roll the same stealth as example 1 and the monsters PP is:

M1. 9

M2. 14

M3 20

Taking the de-facto rule, Mr Clanky with stealth of 5 means the monsters are not surprised by the group.

Using the individual rule no monsters are surprised by PC1. M1 is surprised by PC2. M1 & M2 are surprised are PC 3. So the first round takes place and M1 and M2 do not get to act.

Which is right by RAW or is it all at DMs descretion?

#13

Archon007

Mar 20, 2015 12:31:43

McMechanism wrote:

#14

Greenstone.Walker

Mar 23, 2015 20:26:41

McMechanism wrote: