Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DontEatRawHagis Jul 29, 2014 6:56:42	Sorry if I spell thalmaturgy wrong I don't have the book in front of me.    So in my first session my players have used it to try and cause a tremor to daze/stun the enemy and burst the ear drums of a goblin.    I called shenanigans on those uses for it. But what would be good uses for it.   booming voice for advantage on intimidate checks?   tremors to convince enemies of impending cave collapse?   i just want my players to use these abilities without trying to break the game.
#2 ArkPanda Jul 29, 2014 8:18:35	Generally the rule for spells like thaumaturgy and prestidigitation is that they can't do anything mechanically in the game.  They are only good for role play flair.  This is spelled out a bit better in the mage hand cantrip where it lists several things it can't do like make an attack or use an item. So the first example would be out because you'd be making an attack.  The third example would be OK because it's part of a role play/social interaction and not in combat.  The second one, intimidation, could go either way.  You might have the player make a contest with his wisdom vs. the target's intelligence to see if he bought it.   Of course this is all my opinion.
#3 iserith Jul 29, 2014 8:35:25	Just following the rules of the game sorts out this issue:   1. DM describes environment. 2. Players state actions. 3. DM describes the result of actions.   If the DM doesn't think that Thaumaturgy does anything like burst eardrums or daze enemies, then it doesn't. The goblin covers his ears and is cowed for a moment. The enemy is started by the sound but quickly recovers.   If the DM thinks that the outcome of the action is uncertain and there is a chance of failure, then he can call for a roll. To make the roll actually carry risk (other than a waste of an action), I would recommend allowing a failed check to result in progress with a setback (page 58) rather than "nothing happens." This way, the player has to risk something bad happening to get the effect they want. On a failed check, for example, the goblin is deafened, but so is someone else in the party like the cleric or wizard. The enemy is frightened by the demonstration of divine power, but the disturbance attracts the attention of additional monsters. The key is to make it a fair tradeoff that produces fictional tension and not a disincentive for trying fun things. That may take some practice and a little bit of good faith negotiation with the player.   In any case, addressing your concerns and coming to an agreement about how to move forward is required regardless of the approach you eventually adopt as a group.
#4 Chimerasame Jul 29, 2014 8:40:48	Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, and Druidcraft are a trio of super-versatile-yet-weak cantrips that are meant to vaguely cover "just about anything it seems like a [class] should be able to do". For any given application/usage, consider -- is there another similar cantrip? If so, then the application/usage should be weaker in some way than that cantrip. (Reasoning: if it's not weaker, then it's pointless to take the other cantrip, just take Thau/Pres/D-craft and be just-as-good-but-more-versatile.)   On the other hand, you don't want to get carried away restricting it too much, because it's good to reward creative uses of a spell, and PC casters would definitely want to be able to do some cast-y things and not be completely barred from improvisation (or only be able to improvise with mundane actions outside of their spells). Some of the less fun games have been the ones where "the only things you can do are those things in the rules." As a lower bound for their power, consider this: what would someone be able to do without even using any magic? It should probably be at least that good, maybe a little better in some circumstances.   I agree that trying to daze/stun an enemy and burst eardrums are beyond the purview of Thaumaturgy. You might be able to use it to distract some goblins if a fellow party member is trying to sneak up from behind them and get in a surprise attack or something -- because a normal person yelling could equally surprise them, so it ought to be able to do at least that much.   Advantage on intimidate: This is kind of riding the line. Advantage is often better than the 1d4 bonus granted by Guidance, another cleric cantrip. If Thaumaturgy can grant advantage on any skill check, then what's the point of Guidance? However, I could see it making sense if you restrict it somehow. You can get advantage using it this way, but only against foes who would plausibly be cowed by simple loudness -- if they've heard you do it before, they're probably not gonna be cowed a second time. If they have their own clerics, or if they are clerics, they're probably not gonna be cowed. If they're simply high enough level and/or worldly enough that they've heard this sort of thing all the time... you get the idea. It might also be good to clarify that gaining an intimidate advantage this way doesn't mean that Thaumaturgy can do the same for every skill.   Convincing enemies of impending collapse: The closest thing here, I think, is Minor Illusion. That requires an intelligence check against the spell save DC if they examine the effect. I'd say that one sufficient way of making Thaumaturgy weaker in this case, is to give the enemies automatic, free, investigation checks, in order to realize that the tremors are coming from the spell and aren't natural. 'Course, even if it is natural, they might not believe it's a strong enough tremor to really mean the cave is collapsing. That might require a further Deception vs. Nature roll or something. (Normally I try to shy away from requiring two successes for a single simple action, especially on skills unlikely to be held by the caster class, but if you're using one of the weak-versatile-cantrips in an effort to disperse an entire group of enemies, that might be one call for it.)
#5 Staccat0 Jul 29, 2014 8:55:11	I had a player who was under the effects of charm person use it to let everyone know how rad the evil wizard was.
(Reply to #4) ittyan	Chimerasame wrote:
#7 Rhenny Jul 31, 2014 10:28:42	I like to think of narrative effects from these spells becoming triggers for checks if it makes sense.      For timerous, unintelligent creatures, I could certainly see a tremor scaring them away.   Trigger an intelligence check.     Loud voice - maybe just an intimidation vs wisdom contest.  I guess if it is against a timorous, unintelligent foe it could have advantage, but not against fearless or more powerful foes.