Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MostlyDND Nov 06, 2014 21:30:21	Hey everyone! I was wondering whether there is a particular time at which I, as a DM, should ask the players to roll for initiative?   Here is an example: The players encounter a non-hostile character (for example, Agatha the Wraith), and engage in conversation for a while, and then, the moment they have extracted the information, one of them (let's say the Cleric) declares an intent to make an attack against the Wraith.   My question is whether I should ask my players to roll for initiative before battle begins (so for example, the moment the Wraith appears), or whether it should only be done after it begins (so, for example, maybe allowing that the Cleric's sudden attack either surprises the Wraith, or simply gets to be the first attack for that round only, and then having the rest of the round proceed in accordance with initiative, and all rounds thereafter)?   If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions for this kind of thing, I would be most grateful. Thanks in advance!
#2 kalil Nov 06, 2014 21:40:25	Give the cleric a surprise attack, then have everyone roll.
#3 iserith Nov 06, 2014 21:49:01	The cleric should be declaring his or her intent and approach to surprising the wraith (though Agatha in LMoP is a banshee). At that point, the DM can decide if the surprise works (gets an attack in the surprise round), doesn't work (proceed to initiative), or is uncertain (make an ability check to determine success or failure). Once the cleric's action has been resolved, then everyone can roll initiative.
#4 MostlyDND Nov 06, 2014 21:50:55	Great suggestions, thanks!
#5 trebor_rjf Nov 06, 2014 23:00:06	i use initiative to determine actions for anyone who might be part of the encounter.   in the situation you posted, i'd tell the cleric to roll initiative against the witch. If she wins, she sees the deceit in their eyes or is simply faster on the draw as the party moves to attack.
#6 Danny_Montanny Nov 07, 2014 4:40:02	Intent is one thing, and could go either way. The only question you need to ask is, will there be combat? If yes, initiative needs to be rolled. Look at the order of combat, though. Initiative isn't the first step, determining surprise is. Step 1: who's surprised? Anyone who is can't act in the first round of combat. Step 2: where is everyone related to everyone else? Step 3: roll initiative for anyone who would be involved to determine order. Step 4: resolve each turn in order.   So if the intent of your Cleric is to surprise the Banshee, ask them how they want to go about it. You determine success or failure, and might need to adjudicate some skill checks if it's uncertain. Possibly a Deception vs Insight or maybe Sleight of Hand vs Perception (passive or otherwise). Is this a plan the players concocted before hand, or just a whim of the Cleric? If it's a whim, then any other PC has an equal chance of being surprised. Maybe a PC detects the Cleric's intent and try's to stop it. It could go a million ways. If they're not trying to surprise, then no one is, and after Step 2 is eatablished roll initiative and resolve accordingly.
#7 iserith Nov 07, 2014 6:18:51	The first thing to resolve is the cleric's action and that is handled by the basic conversation of the game, outlined on page 3 of the Basic Rules: The DM describes the environment ("there's a banshee..."), the player describes what he wants to do ("I suddenly attack it..."), and the DM narrates the results of the adventurer's actions ("You get a surprise attack on the banshee..." or "You don't get a surprise attack on the banshee" or "You may or may not get a sudden attack on the banshee, so roll X ability check....").   Once that is resolved, combat proceeds normally with initiative being rolled.
#8 Synjin Nov 07, 2014 9:39:45	iserith wrote:
#9 iserith Nov 07, 2014 9:44:13	Synjin wrote:
#10 Synjin Nov 07, 2014 9:52:02	iserith wrote:
#11 iserith Nov 07, 2014 12:06:55	With the caveat that even in my examples we don't have the full context we would in an actual game, here might be some scenarios:   A character who has taken extraordinary steps in a previous scene to conceal his weapon for just this purpose might be granted automatic success (and have the enemy be surprised). For example, having a weapon folded into a glove of storing or the like. The villain's bodyguards did a thorough search and turned up nothing prior to the interaction, assuring the villain that the adventurer was unarmed. Turns out they were wrong! After the surprise attack, initiative is rolled and combat then proceeds normally.   The character has proven time and again to be untrustworthy. Perhaps it is because of their previous actions or just a flaw that he has that makes it hard for others to trust him. The villain suspects treachery no matter what the character says so he's not surprised when the adventurer tries to shank him, countering the attack with a parry or dodge at the last second. Initiative and combat then proceeds normally. Turning it around, if it was established that the villain is an untrusting sort, never letting his guard down even in seemingly safe situations, then automatic failure might result.   The character and the villain have not tangled before. A parlay is called before a potential conflict. The character knows that this is just a ruse to get close to the villain so he can get in a quick shiv right at the outset of the fight. He makes a point of dropping his sword before approaching, but keeps a dagger sheathed in a scabbard at the small of his back. While talking to the villain, he tries to casually move his hands to his waist without raising suspicion so he make a grab for the blade. As talks are beginning to break down, the villain is on edge. Here, there is uncertainty, and so the player might make a Charisma (Deception) check or a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check against the villain's passive Insight or Perception to notice what the PC is up to. If the player's roll succeeds, then the character gets a surprise attack. If it fails, then the villain notices the ruse and is ready for the attack, blocking or parrying it with a chilling laugh. Combat time, roll initiative!
#12 pukunui Nov 07, 2014 12:13:55	Synjin wrote:
#13 Danny_Montanny Nov 07, 2014 12:24:13	So if the enemy has the Alert feat? Or say another one of your party, or maybe you have a Barbarian of at least level 7 with you? They have the ability to act when normally surprised. That's why the order of combat is specifically stated on PHB p189. Initiative is rolled before you adjudicate the PC's action, not vice versa. If your PC is slow on the draw (a low Initiative roll), then the villain still has the opportunity to take a reaction even if surprised (so long as their initiative result was higher).
(Reply to #13) Timborama	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#15 iserith Nov 07, 2014 13:01:16	If a villain or some circumstance of the encounter makes surprise impossible, then the player's action simply fails to surprise. This possibility will have been telegraphed in the scene before it comes up, however. The villain is "particularly alert," "on edge and ready for anything," or "has companions that are constantly eyeing you for treachery." A player that is paying attention and engaging with the scene will know that surprise is impossible (and can clarify that point as an aside to the DM if he wishes).   As DM, I determine who might be surprised and whether or when combat mechanics such as initiative come into play. It's completely up to the DM, full stop, in D&D 5e when any mechanic is applied.   Sometimes I don't even use initiative at all if I don't feel it will add anything to the scene. Here's a scene from an actual game I ran. Danaidh, a beastmaster ranger is off on his own in the city:   Show DM: Danaidh, as you pass through Low Town and are on the border to the Business District, you come upon a park. Immaculately tended by chain gangs and supervised by priests, this park serves as a green spot in the otherwise bleak city. The park features a statue of Zhakata and two Walls of Devotion - slabs of stone, 10' tall and 30' wide that are covered with the names of those who have starved themselves to death to honor Zhakata. A group of priests and several guards are standing near one of these Walls of Devotion, discussing a blood red symbol painted upon it - the sign of an eclipsed sun. Dànaidh: approaching... "What's this symbol? I am new to this city and have not seen its like since I arrived." DM: They turn to look at you dourly, the guards a bit more receptive than the priests. "Heresy," they tell you. "If you should see anyone making this symbol elsewhere in Zhukar, you would do well to report them to the Inquisition." Dànaidh: "Is the movement of the moon and sun a heresy? Or does it mean something to you?" DM: "This is the mark of a dangerous cult of unbelievers who believe in the heretical aspect of Zhakata. We will find them and Great Yagno will cast their dignity into the dust storms and render them mongrels." Dànaidh: "And where might you think to find them? I'm something of a hunter before I came here. I could find them, if I knew what I was looking for." DM: One of the guards goes to speak up, but a priest silences him. "It is not your concern, foreigner. You should know that asking too many questions makes you look suspicious... You there!" he calls out to a hunched old man in chains. "Bring water and brushes to remove this stain from the Wall of Devotion!" Dànaidh: ((How many priests, guards, and prisoners?)) DM: ((Two priests, four guards, a dozen prisoners.)) Dànaidh commands Cavall to take down the priest that called me suspicious. Laelriina (Riina) Moonshadow: (( O_o )) DM: Cavall doesn't hesitate. As the Inquisitor is berating the old man bringing a bucket of water and brushes, your dog leaps on him. The priest collapses. The guards stagger back uncertain of what just happened. The other Inquisitor looks to you with his hateful mask. DM: ((Is Cavall biting the man or how is this going?)) Dànaidh: ((Yeah definitely.)) *rolling 1d20+6: 15+6=21, rolling 2d4+5: 3+2+5=10* DM: Flesh is torn and the priest screams in pain. Dànaidh: ((10 damage plus a STR save 13)) DM: He's down on the ground now. Things get heated as the guards command you to call off your animal. Dànaidh: "The dog clearly worships the devourer. Would you choose heresy?" DM: "Stupid foreigner - get your beast off me!" the priest says. The priest at his side screams for the guards. "Kill that rabid mongrel!" The guards lower their spears. What do you do, Danaidh? Dànaidh: I draw my sword and stand between Cavall and the guards. They'll have to risk an attack to get past me. Meanwhile, Cavall bites again. *rolling 1d20+6: 3+6=9, rolling 1d20+6: 13+6=19* ((rolling twice bc prone target)) *rolling 2d4+5: 1+4+5=10* DM: The priest screams in pain, rolling around on the ground trying to kick the dog off. His fellow Inquisitor calls upon Zhakata's favor. "Great Zhakata - spare your servant from the wrath of this beast and hold this foreign transgressor accountable!" ((Both you and Cavall need to make DC 13 Wisdom saves.)) Dànaidh: *rolling 1d20+3: 11+3=14 (me), rolling 1d20+3: 12+3=15 (Cavall)* DM: The priest is flabbergasted that his magic did not work on an unbeliever such as yourself. The guards leap into action. Two rush toward you, attacking with the haft of their spears. DM: *rolling* Eduard and Nazar attacks. Nazar hits for 4 bludgeoning damage. The other two are going for Cavall, so you can do something about that. Dànaidh: ((I'll take the OA)) *rolling 1d20+6, 13+6=19; rolling 1d8+2, 2+2=4 slashing damage* DM: They attack Cavall... *rolling* 9 damage total between the two of them as they ram their spears home. What do you do, Danaidh? Rumble: ((wonders if there is a greater plan at work here)) Dànaidh: "Your Devourer God is something of a Predator, isnt he? Look how he favors the dog and me over you soft-assed priests." Cavall bites again *rolling 1d20+6, 14+6=20; 1d20+6, 6+6=12; rolling 2d4+5, 4+3+5=12 damage* DM: How does Cavall kill the priest? Dànaidh: Cavall rips at the throat and does the warhound shake, nearly pulling the head clean off. "If your priest died, and his magic failed him, HE was the heretic. Who among the rest of you will challenge the will of your own God?" DM: ((Okay, so with a Charisma check, you can basically stun these guys for a round. If you fail it, they'll be enraged and attack with advantage. Up for it? DC is 11.)) Dànaidh: ((Sure.)) *rolling 1d20, 12.* DM: The priest is stammering and the guards don't know what to do after seeing the death of an anointed priest and hearing your words. What do you do? Dànaidh: Cavall runs, flat out runs. I grab the keys to the chain gang of slaves off one of the guards, toss it at the chain gang, and retreat, switching sword for bow to cover myself. DM: ((Tell me where you're running to. You're on the border of Low Town and Business District.)) Dànaidh: ((I've had Cavall peeing his way through the city, so I'm backtracking to the point at which we split.)) DM: ((And what of Graff?)) Dànaidh: ((Forgot, I'll mount him and ride him until out of sight. He'll outpace everything, so escape is on the double quick)) DM: ((Where do you and Cavall end up?)) Dànaidh: ((Merchant District, or border with Business))   ((...aaaand scene.))
#16 Synjin Nov 07, 2014 13:40:57	Am I correct in the "Surprise" description that you don't act until the second round of Initiative-based combat? With the exception of being able to take an OA on an enemy that's left your space after your turn has gone by?   PHB wrote:
#17 iserith Nov 07, 2014 13:44:37	Synjin wrote:
(Reply to #14) Danny_Montanny	Timborama wrote:
#19 MostlyDND Nov 07, 2014 16:45:20	Thanks again everyone! Really interesting ideas and methods - which I will be trying out and playing around with in my next session!
#20 iserith Nov 07, 2014 17:14:16	Is it not RAW that the DM determines who might be surprised? We only roll for resolution in this game when there's uncertainty in the estimation of the DM.   Page 3: Entire "How to Play" section discussing how the DM narrates the results of adventurers' actions and "sometimes" asks for die rolls to determine results. Page 4: "In cases where the outcome of an action is uncertain, the Dungeons & Dragons game relies on rolls of a 20-sided die, a d20, to determine success or failure." Page 69: "The DM determines who might be surprised." So by RAW, in my estimation, the DM can say that a player's stated action for his character to surprise a target works (no roll), doesn't work (no roll), or might/might not work (roll). Just like every other action a player chooses to have his character take in the game.
(Reply to #20) Danny_Montanny	iserith wrote:
#22 iserith Nov 07, 2014 17:50:05	Couple of questions:   What are the upsides to rolling Initiative before the resolution of the player's stated action in the situation being discussed?   Is every attack a player describes in the fiction governed by the Attack action mechanic?
#23 bawylie Nov 07, 2014 18:37:46	Whether or not its RAW is a pointless sideline in a game that puts rulings over rules.    Initiative is a tool. Use it or don't as befits the situation.
#24 iserith Nov 07, 2014 18:40:37	Yeah, I agree. My questions are aimed at making sure I'm not missing something in my adjudication that might impact the game in some fashion. My gut says "No," but it's good to know with certainty.