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| #1DMCliveJan 23, 2015 6:49:37 | Hello my fellow DM’s; I had a bit of a disagreement with a player and wanted to see how you all would have ruled. It’s a long story so I will break it down into bullet points.
1) Party delivered message (quest) for aid, to a young white dragon 2) Party Helped defend and drive away unknown attacks from the ywd’s lair. 3) Dragon aggress to honor towns plee, and gives player a small bag of treasure. 4) Gnome Wizard successfully casts Suggestion on dragon, asking for its entire horde to help city.
This is where I got stuck; a level two enchantment making a chromatic dragon give up its entire horde just seemed overpowered; I had thought dragons immune to charms but checked and they are not, so I said the gnome could carry as much as it could form the cave.
The gnome at this point pushed the situation by casting a floating disk laughing at its cleverness. The dragon got pissed and froze the gnome solid, thinking it had been wronged ( whites are the most vengeful of the chromatics)
They unfroze him but I could tell the damage was done an it ruined the mood for the rest of the game; the gnome ended up just taking a handful of pearls being pouty about the entire thing and obviously thinking I was just god-moding the dragon.
Was I right? Can Suggestion really be that powerful, and if it is would the dragon know it’s been tricked after 8 hours and want vengeance? I noted that Suggestion doesn’t actually impose the charm condition so the dragon could still attack.
How would you all have handled the entire situation? I have told my players we will revisit the scene at the start of the next game and I might reverse my call (I’m not above it if I’m in the wrong) Them getting the treasure is not the issue, I can easily add in gold sinks and situations which would negate the 10-20,000 gp they could get from the horde.
Thoughts/Advice?
---------------------- Su g g e s t io n 2nd-level enchantment Casting Time: 1 action Range: 30 feet Components: V, M (a snake’s tongue and either a bit of honeycomb or a drop o f sweet oil) Duration: Concentration, up to 8 hours You suggest a course o f activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course o f action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course o f action you described to the best o f its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it w as asked to do. You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed. If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends. |
| #2QwertyAzertyJan 23, 2015 7:24:07 | Suggestion is very DM dependant. it depand on the DM INTERPRETATION of the word REASONABLE.
so is it REASONABLE for a EVIL dragon to give all his treasure for saving a village? The dragon is young, when you speak with a 5 year old kid and convince him to give you some of his fries (from his happy meal) then you take 5 fries, he's going to say that some fries only mean 3, five fries is many fries and for him is unreasonable to give away 5 fries from his happy meal.
So what would be a reasonable suggestion for a YOUNG EVIL dragon? does giving his entire hoard reasonable? IMO no it's not reasonable so the spell fails right their. Maybe letting them live with there live is more then enought for the white dragon and a single copper piece would be unreasonable for that dragon, but that might be god slapping your mage and showing him that suggestion is useless. maybe try to find a middle ground, like an extra 100gp?
Suggestion is NOT dominate, suggestion is simply you make a "reasonable" suggestion and the dragon most obey that REASONABLE suggestion.
So explain to your wizard that suggestion is based on the concept of REASONABLE and what is REASONABLE varies from individual to individual.
is it reasonable for a pirate to backstab his captain in order to gain a bigger part of the treasure? hell yes it is reasonable, so yes you can use suggestion to force a pirate to attack his captain. is it reasonable for a lawful evil soldier to kill is captain? no it's not reasonable, the soldier is LAWFUL and he will respect the chain of command.
Both the same suggestion, "kill your captain" but 2 different result since the target have a different definition of the concept of REASONABLE. The situation in witch the suggestion is given can change the concept of reasonable as well.
Asking a paladin to give all his posession to the poor to help them, yes this is reasonable and he will do it Asking the SAME paladin to do that in middle of combat, this is not reasonable since if he run away from this fight he's breaking his oath, then the enemy win and will kill the homeless so what good would it bring to give those dead homeless gold. but asking him to give his gear AFTER the fight, this could be reasonable since after the fight he doesn't need it anymore.
Asking to King Midas (the guy who wish to transform in gold everything he toucches) to give you gold BEFORE he made teh wish, Midas was super greedy and giving his gold would NOT be reasonable for any reason, but once he did the wish and realised it was a cursed (when he transformed his daughter into a gold statut) then yes he will give you all the gold you want, since he learn that gold was not making him happy.
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| #3CCSJan 23, 2015 9:25:02 | Dragons tend to have this thing about hoarding treasure.... So no, I don't think your gnomes use of suggestion would work. Good try though on their part, but i font see it being reasonabke from the dragons PoV. If it DID work for some reason? Then as soon as the spell ended there'd be a pissed off dragon & hell to pay. In the end I think the gnome got off too light & I don't see why the dragon wouldn't hold the attempted theft against the town (+ the PCs) and AT LEAST withdraw it's help. (Town sends messengers, those messengers attempt to steal it's hoard - way to blow the diplomacy) |
| #4bawylieJan 23, 2015 9:56:03 | Yes. The gnome's suggestion should've worked. It is important to me that the players feel they can rely on their abilities and ideas. I do not use the system against them.
However, once the spell was over, that dragon would've sought vengeance. Arguably forever. And I'd've let the gnome know that. "Your spell works and the dragon gives generously of its hoard, all you can manage to carry. But you know your spell will wear off, and you know White Dragons are quick to take offense and particularly vengeful. Enjoy your wealth. As long as you can."
Success with a consequence is to me preferable than shutting down the players or making them feel gypped. |
| #5QwertyAzertyJan 23, 2015 10:29:02 | saying that this suggestion is not reasonable is not gipping the character or ability, is respecting the power level of the ability. Suggestion cannot make you do unreasonable thing, and for a dragon giving it's hoard is unreasonable. where do you put the limit? if I suggest him to kill himself would you allow it because you donT' want me to feel like my ability is gimp?
Suggestion is a great spell as it is, you simply need to be creative enought to make your suggestion SOUND REASONABLE to your target. Like I said, suggestion to kill your friend, won't work, suggestion to kill your friend, so that way you don't need to share the reward? that is starting to make sense. the suggestion to kill your friend because he's plannign to kill you to get teh reward all for himself, that sound more the reasonable. it all depend on how to formulate it, to who you give it and in what context are you using it.
When you compare suggestion to other crowd control at the same level like Hold person. They are both concentration targting wisdom save.
Suggestion: work on anyone speaking your language Hold person: work on humanoid only
Suggestion WIsdom save then last for 8 hours or untill the target get hit by the caster ally Hold person Wisdom save EVERY ROUND for 1 minute then the spell is dismiss
Hold person the target become stunn and all your ally receive auto crit when attacking him Suggestion: the target obey your suggestion being as simple as sitting down for 8 hours to as complex as helping you wining this fight
You don't need to make suggestion more powerfull then it is by allowing it to ignore the REASONABLE limitation within the spell, specially since REASONABLE is a subjective concept can be changed depending on many variable (context, formulation, target background etc...) |
| #6DemoMonkeyJan 23, 2015 10:36:56 | I would have been more inclined to tell the gnome player as they begin mentioning the floating disk "The Dragon looks unhappy at letting you carry off it's treasure, as if it is struggling against it's nature not to freeze and devour you all already You have probably reached the limit of a "reasonable" request. Are you sure you want to push your luck with the floating disk?"
Then if he still does do it, well then have at it. |
| (Reply to #5)bawylie | The suggestion must be worded to sound reasonable. It doesn't have to actually Be reasonable in and of itself. The requirement is merely on the format of the suggestion.
The suggestion takes effect if the target fails it's wisdom save. This system (saves vs DCs) is already policing the relative power levels of the participants. You don't need to add extra layers of power-assessment. Either say the spell fails, or it works, or leave it to the dice. But if you DO leave it to the dice, don't complain when the dice produce a result you don't like - you already had the opportunity to simply state the outcome you wanted.
That said, when you start saying "uh, I don't think a 2nd level spell should work that well against a dragon," without having given any indication that's how you run your game, you've created a situation wherein players must make decisions based on what the DM is likely to approve instead of what seems best for the situation in the game.
Your players reaction to this will tell you all you need to know. If they feel gypped or that you've pulled the rug out from under them, you've probably done it wrong. If they're fine with your ruling, then you're okay. These responses will vary from person to person and group to group.
However, because I'm the DM, I decide my own priorities. And the satisfaction of my players is more important to me than whether or not a second level spell works on a dragon. And reasonableness is a lower priority than creating a fun, memorable game.
Consequently, I have very very few arguments over my rulings. And fun stuff stays with us. Like, "Remember that time we tricked that dragon into giving us it's hoard!" is gonna be a more fun, memorable story than, "Remember when we didn't trick that dragon, got frozen, and walked off with a handful of pearls?"
But look, I'm not saying anything is objectively better than anything else. All I'm saying is my priorities are for a good fun game, and I mak rulings that serve my priorities. If yours are different, like having a grounded reasonable world is more important than a good fun time, then that's okay. I'm not here to say you're wrong. I'm just saying I'd've done it differently and my players wouldn't have been upset at the outcome.
If you evaluate your own priorities and decide that upsetting your players isn't as important as being reasonable, then keep doing what you're doing. But if your players' reaction bothered you and you don't want a repeat, maybe you need to rethink how you make your rulings. |
| #8DMCliveJan 23, 2015 12:21:47 | Thanks everyone for your replies; I’m glad it seems that I wasn’t 100% in the wrong on this one.
@ Qwerty – Thank you for this explanation, it really makes sense to me and seems to follow the theme I at least think the spell was intended for; I will use this explanation on how the power should be used in the future. I think the main problem was he just didn’t realize the nature of the creature he was trying to persuade, and that Suggestion is NOT a dominate (it’s not even a charm strictly speaking)
@ CCS – This was my main reason for my response; it states clearly in the MM that chromatic dragons are greedy as hell, and he was in essence using a spell to make a creature go against its very nature. I too am on the line of thought that IF the spell worked that in 8 hours the dragon would seek vengeance. Though the wording of the spell makes that a vague interpretation.
@ Demo – Yes, that was what really pushed my last button, I allowed something I already thought was being generous and the player just wanted to squeeze more and more out of it w/out repercussions.
@ Bawylie – Fun is the name of the game, I wouldn’t put the hours in planning it if everyone wasn’t enjoying it at all; which is why this issue really bothered me personally, I felt I had let my players down by being too tough on them. My priority is for us to enjoy the game, BUT it’s also my priority to run a game where actions have real consequences for better or for worse. I do agree 110% I need to set a standard the players can reasonably expect; I have had DM’s pull rugs out before and I know it only adds for bad Mojo in a game.
Pure and simple abuse is my concern at this point; I don’t want to set a precedent that Suggestion can have everyone dancing to your tune, but never expect a consequence; I don’t want the player thinking he can demand land and treasures from every NPC he passes (since he could cast it many/many times a day) and not expect repercussions.
-- I’m of the mindset now to partially redo the scene (game ended right after it anyway), picking up right before the gnome gets frozen ; the Dragon will be affected and allow the players to take what they can, but will place a time restriction and make the players see how much they can dig out of 5’ft of ice within an hour. (que a series of skill checks) which simply wouldn't be a lot, since the MM says it could take hours to dig out the treasures of a w.dragon.
The players get a little more GP based on the dice rolls, the spell was not fully wasted; but they didn’t hit the lottery and walk out with thousands upon thousands of gold and gems.
As a consequence the Dragon will either demand that the township or the players pay it back 10 fold within a month, or face its wrath. If it falls on the town, which is doing badly, the players then lose face with a major ally; if it falls on the players they got to do some quick thinking to pay a pissed off dragon back.
Thoughts? Thanks again for everyone’s replies I really appreciate them. |
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| #12BRJNJan 23, 2015 20:07:45 | If the PCs still want to load up a Tenser's Floating Disk and as much loot as they can physically carry, in front of a dragon, after asking it to become an ally to a town, I would have the (presumably still-charmed) dragon say something like "I will not forget this - or you." in the snarliest vengeful voice I could do, as the PCs head out of the lair. When the spell runs out, he comes after them looking for revenge and his hoard back.
Maybe he will be nice and keep the PCs alive long enough to haul their ill-gotten goods back to his place on their own two feet and THEN make them into Adventurer-flavored Popsicles. Or maybe he's too short-tempered for that.
I also like the suggestion that he threaten the town if he can't find the PCs.
Dragons are scary threats for a reason. If you treat one with contempt and disrespect (as your Wizard did) then you get to learn WHY they have that reputation. He can always roll up a new - and (the rest of the campaign world hopes) more reasonable / cautious - character after the Dragon is finished with this one.
P.S. You were right to dragonbreath the gnome and be done with it, rather than a long-drawn-out claw/claw/bite/rend/grapple/&c series. Less hard feelings ("You tortured him to death!") later. |
| #13demon_idolJan 24, 2015 13:50:47 | I think that depending upon how the gnome worded the suggestion (he needs to make it sound reasonable, perhaps promising a return on investment), it is totally acceptable that if the dragon fails its saving throw, it should have to turn over the hoard to the gnome. However, keep in mind that once the dragon does give the gnome the hoard by saying, "its all yours to carry off now", the suggestion ends. The dragon will then decide to take the hoard back. A subtle dragon will ask the rest of the party to leave so that he can show the gnome the choicest pieces of treasure in private. "One's hoard is a personal thing, you must understand." If the party is fooled by this ruse, the gnome is going to be in trouble. If not, the party will have to fight the dragon or flee.
Also note that suggesting that the dragon give up its hoard to help the city is very dangerous, because whether or not the dragon fails its save, it might recognize that a spell was cast on it and seek revenge, perhaps by joining the forces that are attacking the city. And if the dragon had recognized that it had been a target of a spell and had made its save, the players would have no doubt forfitted the small boon the dragon had granted the city, and perhaps had to face an angry white dragon in its lair. |