I would like to get thoughts on this issue that has come up. I have a Warlock(WL) in my campaign that has an imp (per pact of the chain). He has the Eldritch Invocation Voice of the Chain Master that allows him to "perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence". When you look at imp abilities, it can fly, limited shape change,(raven, rat, etc.) can see almost anything with Devil's Sight, and can turn invisible.
Fast forward to HODQ: Episode 4 "On the Road" was completely bypassed because the imp could simply scout caravans and the WL could see everything it was seeing. The imp follows caravans on into Episode 5 "Construction Ahead" to the Carnath Roadhouse where it proceeds to scout out the entire area. Flying around at night with Devil's Site it of course finds the loot being taken to castle Naerytar. The group has effectively bypassed two episodes, which i'm fine with. I'm ok with characters using their full abilities and prowice. However, this brings me to my real issue. The imp in any various forms could always and forever scout almost anywhere; effectively removing any fear of unknown and spirit of adventure. In this case, he could find Castle Naerytar, scout out about 80% of it (as it is shown in the module), or any dungeon for that matter. Now, as DM I could always have all doors closed, all windows secured, etc. to prevent this, but I like realism if that makes any sense. A rat is going to be able to find some way into a giant castle or dungeon. A raven is going to find some window open, arrow slit, etc. Granted, Druids can wild shape, casters can shape change, and there are any number of ways characters can do this. How are you as DM's handling effective scouting from a creature that can take on multiple forms, including flying, turn invisible, has devil's sight, can be communicated with anywhere in the world, and allows Warg like abilities to the WL?
Batla76 wrote:
Iserith,
Thanks for the response! I agree with everything you have said. We actually did have an after game discussion and the player agrees that it seems to be an issue also if not reigned in. He even offered to re-spec because of the same reasons. I just hesitate to limit characters when they are playing within the rules, and playing their class abilities to their fullest extent. I hesitate to limit this ability because it is a fundamental change to the class and character. I've been DMing since 94 and i'm confident I can adjust for this ability, I actually DM better anwyay having to "shoot from the hip" and adjust for randomness and player ingenuity, rather than following a ridgid module like HODQ. Allowing and adjusting for the unknown things that players come up is part of the fun on both sides of the table! It just seems a bit odd that a low level WL is the perfect scout (expendable, invisible, see even in magical darkness, flying platform with unlimited range, duration, and Game of Thrones style Warg like abilities)!
iserith wrote:
I don’t think the Imp is being played quite right. It’s a lawful evil devil not a robot. Sending it to investigate the cultists while the party is in the same caravan is one thing but scouting the 900 miles from Baulders Gate to the Roadhouse is another. It’s Invisibility requires constant concentration to use making this no easy task. If I was that Imp I’d say the Warlock could shove it up his dark pit, get off his butt and help him look.
But let’s say the Imp is a team player and doesn’t mind. All you need to do to neutralize him is to put some tree cover over the castle so it can’t be seen from the sky, then your left with a huge swamp that needs to be investigated a little at a time. You should also consider that just because the Imp can be Invisible doesn’t mean it’s undetectable. It should only take one instance of a alert lizardman tossing a javelin at the invisible imp to make him back off. The Imp only has a 13AC and 10HP after all, it’s not going to risk life and limb while it’s master is nice and cozy back at the Inn.
He didn't climb the ranks of the blood war as a Lemure to be promoted to Imp just to act as some warlocks dog. He supposed to be turning that guy and everyone he knows to evil in order to curry favor with his dark masters. That promotion to Spined devil isn't going to happen itself. It’s certantly not going to happen if he gets run over by a wagon wheel or roasted by Rezmir when he uses the Dragon Sight ability from his mask to see what’s got him so uneasy all of a sudden.
Theros,
That may very well be the case. I have assumed that a "familiar" was under the implicit command of it's master but that ussumption may be flawed.
Theros wrote:
The character is under the control of the player but it is a character all the same. If they player isn't taking that into account when using it, I believe it's the DM's right to assert some level of control.
Talk it over with your player. He might like the idea of constantly being in a battle of wits with his soul on the line.
Adds Spice.
Batla76 wrote:
OP:
I'm playing a Wood Elf with Perception(max) and I wonder: what my role in the Warlock's party would be? I don't mind the help on scout detail, but ...
It sounds like you are giving away information to be gleaned too easily, and too much of it.
- Is this Imp scouting 24 hours a day? Does the character ever sleep?
- Does the Imp have the magical ability to show up in a cellar at just the right moment to see the thief slink through? That is a DM error.
- Can the Imp be everywhere at once? If not, have two important conversations / events happening at the same time.
IRL, because USA has stealth drones and spy sattelites and radar and night-vision goggles, does not mean we know what's going on in peoples' heads, or what is done out of sight. How many times does the intelligence community get surprised because an enemy of America thought up a new trick?
iserith wrote:
Theros wrote:
Monkey paw it. Yes he completes a diffcult task, but doesnt mean he has to do it well. Particularly with the Imp, but it also matters how much your saying his patron has on him. Id be careful if yall never use the backstory of making a deal with demons/devil and then start saying that the minor imp that the player has is suddenly got his own plan going on for everything. My 2cp
I'd say the patron is kinda a big deal. It's the DMs job to take an interest if a Paladin is following his chosen code (more or less). I assume Asmodeus or Mephistopheles is going to want something in exchange for those bad ass warlock abilities. The Cleric and Paladin are expected to be roleplayed with some obligations, I don't see why the Warlock should get off the hook.
Know what stops an imp? A door.
No, seriously, a single closed door foils the imps deepest, darkest plans 
Not every door or window can be bypassed by a rat or raven. THAT is more realistic than an "anything goes" sorta portal idea 
Also worth noting, Invisible just means unseen. NOT unheard 
(also, does Devil's Sight carry over into the Imp...? I'm not sure it does, but don't have the wording of that and the Familiar stuff in front of me)
Even though divine classes are still expected to act according to dogmas ect, its much more rarely that i see warlocks get held to the same level as cleric or pally. I know it seems like a double standard, but its just what my experince with having the class in the group is.
I think that if any particular class is going to be held to fictional constraints that affect their class features beyond what is said in the books, this needs to be worked out ahead of time. You can't spring it on the players afterward because you don't like how it's going. You can, of course, negotiate in good faith after the fact to work out a solution if the goals of play are not being achieved. I just don't think it's a good idea for the DM to unilaterally make things more difficult or subvert options without getting player buy-in.
iserith wrote:
An imp scouting out in the open is going to be a very powerful tool. I have a wizard player with an owl, its also a very powerful tool in the parties toolbox.
You just need to adjust the module where suitable. Enemy casters especially will be aware of familiars and have counter tactics to suit (alarm spells, traps,.wards, etc). Also remember that it works both ways. If this Imp is annoying you too much have an enemy caster scry on the party, then summon a demon with True Sight to go deal with it.
You could even have the party start to get a reputation for being devil worshippers in some circles, and have local good organisations look to hunt them or the familiar down as well.
You know what else is in a giant castle? A cat. Maybe the player rolls well on his perception and athletics checks to spot the cat and duck into a crack in the wall. From there it can find some useful bit of information to aid the players. Or maybe it is hit by the cat, reverting to imp form. It can kill the cat easily enough, but uh oh, a servant girl saw it transform. Now the castle is on high alert, with magic-sniffing mastiffs and a paranoid paladin guard on patrol. Or maybe the cat belonged to the resident wizard. Maybe the cat is his familiar? Anyway, now he wants revenge and is prowling - i.e. using the cat's senses - around for the imp. Or something like that.
The imp's a raven? Sweet, now there's a hungry hawk about. A spider? Lizards love eating spiders, as do frogs. Some people squish them, others shoo them outside and close the door.
This way the player is challenged but also gets to role-play as the imp some. Personally, I think it'd be a blast to play as a rat running through a castle. In and out of walls, under tables, up drainpipes, &c. &c.
Could very easily steal the spotlight for a good chunk of session. Imagine having to sit through even just 30+ minutes in a 3-4 hour session where you are doing nothing. My current group bull shits(way more then we should) but even that seems pretty bad for even just a regular group of 5. Be sure to limit his use of familiar, or find an interesting way to get the rest of the group involved in something else as well.
If the player did that, then he would also be bypassing the mega crap-ton of XP that is gained during those episodes for every PC in the party since none of them could participate in the encounters. Not only that, but without the PC's there, the caravan would probably be demolished or stalled due to those encounters, thus failing the objective of those episodes.
iserith wrote:
thehobb wrote:
Also worth mentioning you should reward the Warlock on occassion for using his ability. Not all the time, of course, and some instances the imp doesn't work (or doesn't work as well as he'd like). But don't foil him EVERY time. Because then he's going to be sad and regret the day he didn't just pick the Book of Secrets option...
Think of it like any other class, like say, a fighter. Not EVERY opportunity can be solved with a sword. Whether it's a battle or an RP encounter, sometimes a sword can (through damage or intimidation), sometimes it can't (immunities, law enforcement nearby, tougher creatures), and sometimes it doesn't work as well as he'd like (resistance to damage, a civilized area). So just like you should sometimes reward the fighter for specializing in "sword" and give him his moment to shine, you also need to not have him hog the spotlight and not foil all your plans via sword. Have him use "sword" and his party's sorcery work together!
It's the same for a Warlock with and imp familiar
thehobb wrote:
I've found in the past that you need to be careful with this sort of thing as well. There's been several times when I’ve spoken to my player about a tactic or ability they were using and they immediately flew off the handle, saying they’d roll a new character because they “knew” I was going to nurf them or take all the fun out of it.
I suspect they were getting bored doing the same thing over and over again and wanted to play something different anyway.
iserith wrote:
Imps and Quasits I always want to play like that as they are evil and have no interest in truely serving.
Maybe not... But in my opinion it's not the PC an imp or quasit is concerned about angering, but the warlock's patron. The subversions presented above seem pretty obvious and guaranteed to result in torment and torture for the familiar once the warlock challenges their patron on sending them such a ludicrously inane servant to do their bidding. In most cases, I would assume if the patron wasnt invested in the warlock's success, they wouldn't deign to be the warlock's patron. Therefore if the familiar is going to start upsetting the apple cart, they'd damn well better do it in a way that they won't get blamed for doing so.