Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Centauri Sep 02, 2014 10:37:36	I take no joy in restricting what my players spend their characters' gold on. At the same time, I find it dull to imagine that there's a shop in town that just has everything for sale. I'll certainly involve them in this discussion, but I'd be interested to hear from other GMs about ways characters might lose gold and gain items. Here are some I thought of:   The character sacrifices to their temple (or some local place of worship), either directly by giving them gold, or by paying for the ritual materials to make a symbolic offering. The grateful clergy dust off a relic they have little use (the item the player desired) for and donate it to the PC.   The character spends gold around the local underworld, bribing certain people and getting meetings with certain others, so that a certain useful item (the item the player desired) finds its way into the character's possession.   The character pays guild dues, and donates to improvements and funds, and in return is given access to crafting resources and equipment caches, enabling the character to come by useful gear (the item the player desired).   None of that is played out, of course, unless the players want it to be, but it gives an interesting bit of atmosphere.   Can you think of any other descriptions of PC purchases, that don't involve stores?
#2 Akeisha Sep 02, 2014 14:28:11	Well, the characters going through the Lost Mine adventure here will most likely claim Tresendar Manor as their own, so there will be plenty of coin-munching going on to clear up the place, repair/rebuild it, and to keep hirelings of some sort around for maintenance, etc.   Then of course there will be the inevitable upgrades to equipment, transport, etc. they will go through to chew up excess funds.   I am also guessing there is a possibility of investment in the town that may occur as well.   Perhaps some 'investments' in a home base or town setting would add some flavour while removing excess funds?
#3 awogaman Sep 02, 2014 14:52:38	I think in Forgotten Realms and such, a lot of the towns say that at the gates to enter the town they have to pay tolls and other shenanigans like that.  But I thunked up a way for the players to own and / or operate binesses.    First they pay a start up fee, and then they make like 10% of that / month or 1% or whatever; depending on what type of binness.  And they could hire lackeys to run the place whilst they're out chopping up bad guys n such.  But it gives them a way to have their characters more invested in the world and opens up new avenues for adventures and such.
#4 Illithidbix Sep 02, 2014 16:11:02	Partying.   Great Public acts of celebration to spread their awesome name and epic deeds.   Something as simple as buying everyone in the Village tavern a drink or it could be hosting a great feast.   The guy who might have saved you from a dragon or orc invasion or army of undead is one thing. The fact he also just bought all your drinks for a night is another.
#5 Atheosis Sep 02, 2014 17:02:05	I have always hated players shopping for magic items.  It's such a ridiculous notion in any setting that isn't rife with magic.  I tend to custom tailor some items for my party so they don't end up having their characters screwed by RNG the whole campaign, but I do not ever allow players to go to a magic shop and buy whatever they want.   As far as the OP's question goes magical items can always be used as the impetous for a quest.  If that Paladin wants that Holy Avenger to slay the demon lord that is threatening the world he'll have to go work really hard for it.
#6 Centauri Sep 02, 2014 16:59:52	Wow, I guess I was not clear.   I'm not looking for other things for the characters to buy or have to pay for. I'm talking about players who know what they want to pay for, in terms of magic items or other equpment.
#7 Centauri Sep 02, 2014 17:39:21	Atheosis wrote:
#8 sailoroswald Sep 03, 2014 12:00:17	Definitely need to save this thread for the future.   Someone mentioned letting their PCs own a business. What if the item is in a shipment for the store, and the PC just decides to take it for themselves?   Maybe the item isn't available, but the PC finds a blueprint (if it's mechanical in nature), and has local artisans build it?   Perhaps the player sends gold back home to family and they send them the item as a thanks?
#9 Gruff_Ironfist Sep 03, 2014 21:59:40	Centauri wrote:
#10 cougon Sep 04, 2014 3:21:08	How about some kind of bizarre where the player have to barter and haggle for odd little things.  It's similar to a shop, but it has many stalls, RP opportunities, and might or might not have what the players are looking for at the time.
#11 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 6:34:29	You could just bite the bullet and have a magic item shop.   If you're assuming that a core principle of the setting is that the players can buy whatever magic items they want as long as they have the right amount of gold, it follows that *this is the way your gameworld works*. That being the case, there absolutely *would* be places that sold those kinds of things.   If your world doesn't work like that, then why should PCs be able to spend gold on whatever items they liked when the rest of the world can't.
#12 Centauri Sep 04, 2014 8:18:33	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#13 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 9:47:55	Let me try to rephrase.   You seem to want a world in which "magic item shops" *functionally* exist - that is, PCs can always exchange gold for level appropriate magic items without having to rely on the goodwill of the DM or good luck in sidequests - but without having actual magic item shops. You seem to want to achieve this by means of a metagame mechanic whereby a player can expend a set amount of money on - essentially - any activity they like (temple tithes, financing expeditions, commissioning artisans, whatever) and reliably acquire the specific magic item *the player* desires without their *character* necessarily intending any such thing.   I *can* see the logic. I just don't quite understand what your aversion to magic item shops is, other than that they are a deprecated concept.   You even observe yourself that "there is no magic shop" is just an excuse for the GM to prevent the players buying whatever they want - if you *do* want the players to be able to buy whatever they want, that's *exactly* what a magic shop is.
#14 Centauri Sep 04, 2014 9:59:59	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#15 Kazadvorn Sep 04, 2014 10:05:24	It depends so much on your players.   Some folks get into the role playing end of the game more than others. For some players, the idea of spending a session building up good will by spreading gold around is a great way to spend an evening. Others feel that any time spent away from actual adventuring is a boring waste of a free evening.   Sometimes it's just easier to hand out items.   Certainly giving cash to the local temple will make it more likely that the clerics will offer up old relics to aid the players in the future. Spending money on local charities will make it more likely that the players will get favorable reactions from the locals. This might attract the attention of the rulers who will reward the player's charity with interesting assignments that come with equipment to make success more likely. Building a library might get the attention of a sage/wizard who can provide some magic items to the players as a reward. Building a stronghold will attract fighter and other hirelings who may have information on interesting people and places where neat stuff can be found. The players might fund some sort of urban renewal project... while clearing the site for new housing, an ancient tunnel complex is uncovered. Players buy a ship, or just aquire a cargo to take to another port to sell. They decide to go with their merchant voyage to keep an eye on things. The ship is blown off course and they find a lost island with stuff.
#16 Centauri Sep 04, 2014 10:20:19	Kazadvorn wrote:
#17 Moirdryd2 Sep 05, 2014 3:52:58	The Magic Item Shop...   It depends on your setting. In most you'll find places that may very well sell some scrolls or potions etc. In games like Dragonlance, Greyhawk or Ravenloft that's probably as good as you'll get save for the occasional merchant prince who may have a rare item of interest or two for sale. Normally I'd present the attempt thus if the party are in a suitable location to find a prominent merchant:   'You enter the well appointed store. It's constructed mostly of stone from an age long past with newer timbers completing the structure. All manner of practical goods line the shelves as well as populate adornments and the bright eyed young woman looks up from the ledger she's writing in.  "Well met" she greets in a warm voice as she moves around her counter/desk the whisper of silk accompanying her step "What can I help ye with on this day?" Your eyes stray across the shelves behind the counter noting a few vials and flasks stood with care alongside a half dozen rolled vellum scrolls, each sealed with a waxen disk bearing notation to the spells locked within. When you enquire about items of magic besides the few scrolls and potions the merchant offers a wry little smile and produces an item wrapped in a bolt of velvet from beneath the counter. "Such things are very rare, bold adventurer, but I do have this one thing..." she says as her quick hands expertly unfold the velvet...'    Now, whatever that item may be I would either pick or randomise, but it's a far cry from letting the party fill a shopping list.    In settings like Forgotten Realms or Eberron however there are "magic shops" in fact it's part of the Red Wizards of Thay's economical domination plan. So my players get some more option and free reign with there characters. However...   'It takes you almost no time at all to locate the storefront of the business supported by the House of Wands. You grew up here in Waterdeep after all and had seen the sign many times. The shop itself is tidy and well ordered but with heavy doors and you're certain from rumours around the ward that the windows are all suitably enchanted against thieves. An elf browses the shelves that seem more like a library than part of a shop. There are jars filled with ingredients of an alchemical nature, inks and quills of curious properties and all manner of other, carefully ordered, parafinellia that remind you of the contents of some of that gnomnish sorcerer's many pouches. There's a rack of some two dozen or so vials and  bottles containing potions of several types. A robed half elf offers a small smile as you approach.  "Welcome to my store" he intones with very clear and precise words "What can the House of Wands do for you?" You make your desires known and his brow furrows a little. "Expensive" he says "That kind of magic is expensive and not easily come by either. Master Elias of the house would be the one to commission that work to, but he's not due back from Neverwinter for another tenday yet and then he will like as not be busy with other matters first..." The merchant shakes his head and scratches his chin, flicking open a ledger and leafing through the pages noting the look in your eyes "Maybe... Yes, Miss Nilia can certainly work that sort of enchantment into steel for you. She's not as skilled as Master Elias, but she's competent to the task. I'll enquire after her for this commission. Pay your gold to my clerk there, get your note of order and  come back in three days." '   Twi differant ways of allowing some gold for magic. One without it being a magic shop, the other where it is. Of course, either way can also spawn lots more RP, flavour and maybe even an adventure for a group.
#18 Eris.Shrugged Sep 05, 2014 7:48:16	Yes but.. Yes they have the item you want, but it also has a curse. Yes, the item you want is in town, but it is up for sale, and another adventuring party are trying to buy it. Yes, there is the item in town, but it is privately owned and not for sale. Yes, you can buy it, but it will take x amount of time to get here. Yes you can purchase the item, but it looks really ugly and people comment on it.
#19 Timborama Sep 05, 2014 8:01:52	Centauri wrote:
#20 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 10:04:33	Moirdryd2 wrote:
#21 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 10:05:44	Eris.Shrugged wrote:
#22 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 10:11:35	Timborama wrote:
#23 Eris.Shrugged Sep 05, 2014 10:51:09	Not sure how that makes them regret asking. Yes but you need to do something that adds to the narrative of the item and makes it cooler before you can have sounds like something I'd rather have happen than "yeah, you can buy it, it is in the shop and it costs x."
#24 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 11:05:48	Eris.Shrugged wrote:
#25 Eris.Shrugged Sep 05, 2014 11:32:21	Given narrative control.  I would rather never get the money.  Hear about the magic item from a wandering bard. Research the tale in a wizards tower, delve into an ancient barrow, there to overcome a dangerous challenge to acquire the item, only to be faced with a meaningful moral or personal dilemma, and then rock out to the fact it is a meaningful item in my game, not just christmas tree item number three. I had to many years of that fun drain from 3.5, pathfinder, and 4e.  One of the great joys about 5e is that the system doesn't require magic items to work right. When you get on it is a bonus, and frankly, that means I am not going to settle for anything less than AWESOME from them as either a player or a DM.   You have no idea how much I hope that magic items have no list price, and the default assumption is that they are priceless, not for sale at any price.
#26 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 11:45:07	Eris.Shrugged wrote:
(Reply to #26) Eris.Shrugged	Centauri wrote:
#28 OrwellianHaggis Sep 05, 2014 13:03:48	I had a (very basic) idea that the characters could start their own organisation. Each organisation would level up using gold and gain members per level (10xlvl members). At the level you'd normally get an ability score increase you could choose for your organisation to experience an extraordinary event. You'd decide what it was with your DM. Magic items, legendary beasts, and so on, were what sprang to mind.
#29 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 13:55:09	Eris.Shrugged wrote:
#30 Ansbach Sep 05, 2014 14:54:49	A few generic ideas off the top of my head:   A situation where the players have to make an investment to acquire something. There's an island off shore that has "free" items they want (an abandoned wizard tower filled with scrolls), but they need to buy or rent a boat to get there and bring it back.  Maybe they've heard a recent story of a magic item, so it's a money-is-no-object race to get there first. The local baron will give them something they want (horses, land, soldiers, or a magic item), but to get it they will have to purchase fine clothing, a carriage, etc. and attend an expensive ball. Good Old Medieval Bartering The PCs find treasure other than gold pieces, and isn't easy to cash into gold and then use the gold to buy stuff.  Instead, they have to trade item for item, or maybe even work out a three-way trade between two other parties.  Personally I like giving my players a large, valuable rug or tapestry that they have to cart around and try to unload. When they do have plenty of gold pieces, maybe the seller isn't intersted in gold.  The Elven weaponsmith doesn't want gold pieces as payment - he wants silveroak from the nearby forest for his bows.  The players need to spend gold to acquire the silveroak either by purchasing some and arranging a shipment, paying for an expedition, or renting a wagon and some hired loggers and going to get it themselves. On a related note, getting rid of a universal currency can go a long way in making the act of acquring goods and services more interesting.  The gold pieces they found in the dungeon may be worthless in an area where the currency is in gems, rare feathers, black iron coin rings, or paper money backed by a local warlord.  They then have to figure out more creative ways to purchase needed items by somehow converting their gold piece treasure into something else.
#31 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 14:55:36	Ansbach wrote:
#32 Ansbach Sep 05, 2014 15:03:35	Another:   Paying for services and/or information needed to acquire stuff: The item the party wants isn't for sale so they need to hire the local thieves guild to acquire it for them. There's a wizard in the swamp who has been known to make and sell magic items for people, but the only one who knows how to get there is wants an exorbitant fee to guide the party there. The local horse breeder will give you the warhorse you want if you rebuild his burnt-down barn, because he's feuding with the local carpenter and can't get it repaired himself.
#33 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 15:09:49	Ansbach wrote:
#34 Ansbach Sep 05, 2014 15:31:35	Wow, I just read all your posts in this thread.   You get that you asked for help and we are volunteering suggestions, right?   How about a "Thanks for all the ideas guys" instead of being ungrateful, rude and argumentaitve with people who are volunteering to help you out?
#35 Eris.Shrugged Sep 05, 2014 15:15:03	Centauri wrote:
#36 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 15:32:07	Eris.Shrugged wrote:
#37 Centauri Sep 05, 2014 15:33:33	Ansbach wrote:
#38 Moirdryd2 Sep 05, 2014 16:30:25	In other respects of making magic shopping interesting in all aspects that should Coe down to any Roleplaying involved. I would advise a look into Legend of the Five Rings where on the main forum there was a discussion about "shopping" for gifts etc, there were many good examples there of making some marvellous RP out of what is in theory a mundane task. That's why in my second example the Magic Item was to be a bespoke work (as most Wonderous Items, Enchanted Arms and Armour etc should be given the crafting requirements). Even in 3.5 it just said Raw Materials Value X so the character in question can select the binding for the hilt, the etching acids for the breastplate piece, the jewels to be set in the wand, the composites to be folded into the steel and so on and so forth.    I have a store I put into my current 3.5 realms campaign that the party recalls so very fondly because of the flamboyant tiefling owner (it's in the Underdark where they're not likely to return soon). He was portrayed with ott gestures a slightly outrageous accent and massively bold statements about the properties of his wares. It was still hit and miss if he could fill all the parties desires (often he could exceed them in ways they couldn't afford). His name was Vishareen and his assistant was a rather grim and mopey mongrel man called Grimbold.    I also made their experiences memorable by naming every weapon that bore an enchantment. Engarrad, Rabbits Foot, Shiver, Gleam, Warbride, Galordrien, Nevermore, didn't matter if they were discovered or purchased, they had names and stories (or interesting facts or boasts that went with them). Every wand and rod looks differant and each Wonderous item bears its very own description.