Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MJP May 28, 2015 2:35:47	Hi   I have been running a 5e campaign since it came out and the players are now 17th level.   During the couse of the campaign I have had Dragons that can cast spells (as NPC's and as Bad Guys). The party wizard wants to Polymorph themselves into a Adult Copper Dragon and make it permenant.   Do they retain their ability to cast spells?   On the against side we have: - Dragons don't have the innate spellcasting feature (but do using the sidebar in the MM) and I have kinda set a prescidence in my campaign already. On the for side we have: - Dragons can talk, perform gestures, have hands to use components so they can "physically" cast spells as far as I am concerned.   If I do allow my player to Polymorph themselves into a Dragon I am in all sorts of trouble as they will be the most powerful character in the party both physically and spellcasting wise. All the downsides of being a wizard go away and I am pretty much left with an un-killable player.   Of course I can use common sense and just say NO to them but somehow I feel unhappy about doing that.   Thoughts or suggestions?
#2 xanral May 28, 2015 6:44:51	I'm not sure how the rules go as it was never very clear to me, but I'd go off the dragons as innate spellcasters rules if I did allow it.  So by the rules an adult copper dragon would have access to 3 1/day spells of 4th level and lower.  For example if counterspell was a choice they could use it (locked at 3rd level) once a day and no more.  They have no access to higher level spells and no ability to spam spells.   I still think it is a good trade but not a pure step up in all cases.   As a side note gold would probably be a better choice as they can assume humanoid form not to mention having 7 spells at 5th level or lower.
#3 iserith May 28, 2015 7:09:44	How does the player plan on going about making Polymorph permanent?
#4 MJP May 28, 2015 8:17:57	iserith wrote:
#5 MJP May 28, 2015 8:19:45	xanral wrote:
#6 iserith May 28, 2015 8:34:48	MJP wrote:
#7 vipLink May 28, 2015 8:34:45	Hi MJP,   I'm not sure but you might be ruling Polymorph wrong. Check out this article, it's pretty nice and describes the faults in the spell: http://tribality.com/2014/10/22/polymorph/   Concentration can be broken if he receives enough damage. As far as spells go, the Polymorph spell specifically states he can't cast spells in his new form. My reasoning for this would be "New Body Syndrome" the actions are to precise for his unacustomed body. (He knows how to cast spells as a Human, but not as a Dragon) So no he can't cast spells, beacause a) the rules say so and b) it seems over powered  and I think the design intent when they stated it that way in the rules was because of this.   I'm also not sure if a Dragon counts as a beast. Beast is a type of creature and you can only polymorph into a beast.   Hope this helps you, vipLink
#8 Slashbras May 28, 2015 8:44:37	They're lvl 17, this is about "True polymorph" not polymorph.   If you really want to let them cast spell you could state that a dragon is like a 1/2 or 1/3 spellcaster. Using the Paladin table or Eldritch Knight table as source for their spell slots per level and how many spell do they know. I think this alone will make them change heir mind about beeing dragons.   For the feats and other features you're not suppose to keep them. After all you're a dragon now your body and mind (stats not personality) are different you cant apply all you knew to your new form.
(Reply to #5) xanral	MJP wrote:
#10 DemoMonkey May 28, 2015 10:24:46	"Another way to view it is a CR 14 dragon with all the abilities of a lvl 17 wizard is far higher in CR than 17 thus is not a valid form."   This.
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	DemoMonkey wrote:
#12 xanral May 28, 2015 15:15:25	I tend to think that the game undervalues spellcasters as far as CR goes, expecially ones with neat racial abilities like always on flight etc.  Being able to spam counterspell, misty step, etc with access to tons of battlefield control options like forcecage, maze, etc allows them to take what should have been a cakewalk and turn it into an uphill battle.  I wouldn't think it would equal a lich but I'd much rather fight a CR 17 dragon than a lvl 17 wizard in a CR 14 copper dragon's body with all their spells, class features, and feats.
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	xanral wrote:
(Reply to #13) xanral	Cutting the party in half with forcecage is a huge advantage for the dragon.  Counterspell keeps them from being rescued or else prevents a nasty saveless spell from going off.  Misty step allows the dragon to step out of forcecage itself.  Flight and the ability to keep anything else from flying basically makes the dragon immune to being hit with melee or short range attacks unless it chooses to close to melee range.  Basically all of those are either reducing the party's actions by quite a bit or else are bonus/reaction casts that in no way reduce the dragon's base options.  That isn't even covering buff spells like greater invis, blink, mirror image, foresight, etc.   They you have the feats and class archetype stuff on top of that so a dragon has greater portent etc.   I dunno, playing in earlier editions where dragons were full casters it was very advantageous for the dragon to make use of spellcasting.  From playing and GMing in this edition while stuff has changed quite a bit, it still seems to be a big plus to have full spellcasting.
(Reply to #14) AaronOfBarbaria	xanral wrote:
(Reply to #15) xanral	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #16) AaronOfBarbaria	xanral wrote:
(Reply to #17) xanral	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#19 MJP May 29, 2015 8:45:38	Thanks for all the replies and information.   I have spoken at length with the player involved and now he wants to use his "Wish" spell to turn himself into a Dragon so that he retains his level 17 spells and spellcasting abiltiies.   So my next question is: How much benefit should the "Wish" spell confer to a player in terms of game stats, abiltiies, HP/Dice etc...?
#20 xanral May 29, 2015 9:45:49	As a DM you can pretty much justify any monkey's paw or limitations you want for Wish that goes outside of the standard options.   Personally I'd sit down and ask the player what he is looking for.  Does he just want to be a dragon because that'd be cool?  Does he want it as a sheer power buff and he's looking to outshine the rest of the party?  How does he plan to handle times when being human sized would be a good idea?  Then I'd figure out some compromise that I think everyone at the table would be mostly happy with.   He might be happy with a shapechange style effect.  As an action he changes into that CR 14 copper dragon, no slot used or concentration needed, but he can't cast in that form.  He can change back as an action.  He doesn't get a fresh pool of HP so if he has 50 hp left when he changes form he still has 50 hp left.  That would still be very powerful and allows some overlap (casting a spell then changing form or switching to dragon form when he's almost out of spell slots) but I don't think it would overshadow the rest of party.
#21 Slashbras May 29, 2015 9:50:34	Wish granted. He looks like a dragon but keep the same stats.
(Reply to #19) AaronOfBarbaria	MJP wrote:
#23 iserith May 29, 2015 12:06:14	My take on the wish would be to say that it duplicates the effects of a spell of 8th level or lower. True polymorph is 9th level. This means that what he or she wants is beyond the scope of the normal limits of a wish spell and that makes the results of the wish uncertain. We have great tools in the game for resolving uncertainty, so let's do an Arcana check, DC 25 or 30. If the check is successful, the character is a dragon with full-on spellcasting. If it's not successful, dire results for the character (that are interesting and fun for the player) ensue. It's probably a good idea to collaborate on what that means, involving the group in the decision.   But ultimately, xanral's right in my view. The true motive of the player must be discussed. One of my players could have his or her character turn into a deity for all I care - I have infinite things at my disposal to challenge him or her anyway. What matters is whether that player can choose to use that power in a way that does not take away from the contributions of the other PCs. Spotlight time must be maintained or it's not going to work for me.
#24 NamelessHero May 29, 2015 12:22:15	OK alot of things going on here, but this is an interesting thread.   First true polymorph only allows that  :   “ the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.”  (PHB pg. 283)     So we can only pick a CR 20 or lower monster. Which an Ancient copper dragon is, but gold dragon isn’t.   Now the copper dragon has the innate spellcasting variant which allows them to know spells. However, RAW that doesn’t allow them to keep true polymorph since they can only know spells equal to one-third their level or lower . (MM pg. 86). So one third of 20 is 6. True polymorph is a 9th level spell. If he chooses to know the polymorph spell that won't let him change back since it only allows for shapeshifting into beasts. And he can’t choose the shapechange spell because it’s a 9th level spell.     However copper dragons have the Change Shape action, which complicates things. The question is whether or not you allow the player to Polymorph back to it’s original form of said wizard, or merely some other random humanoid. Since the Change Shape action allows the creature to revert back to it’s “true form” (MM pg.104)  i’m inclined to say that the wizard is able to magically discern what his “true form” was, as opposed to merely being forced to change back into the dragon. With that being said, I wouldn’t argue with anyone who has this sentiment:   AaronOfBarbaria wrote: