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| #1NevvurOct 20, 2014 9:28:53 | With wizards in 5e all specializing in one school of magic, I find myself missing the classic mage. Been thinking about a subclass to reflect a generalized training. If something of this nature has been posted before, I'd appreciate a link. Otherwise, I'm hoping for constructive criticism on the Mage subclass features below. Does anything seem overpowered or rather underwhelming? Complete alternatives to the features described are also welcome. It's pretty bland at the moment, but then again, I am aiming for generic.
2nd level, Diverse Caster: At this level and everytime you gain a level, add three spells to your spellbook instead of two. The third spell must be from a different school than the first two. You also gain one additional cantrip at 2nd level only. This cantrip cannot be from a school in which you already know a cantrip.
6th level, Imposing Magic: As a bonus action, you gain advantage on a ranged or melee spell attack, or cause disadvantage on an enemy's saving throw against a spell you cast. If the spell affects an area or multiple targets, only one attack roll or saving throw is affected, which you choose. Imposing Magic may not be used in subsequent rounds for spells that require concentration. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier. Uses reset after a long rest.
10th Level, Ritualist: You may adapt and learn spells from any other class spell list if they have the ritual tag. Such spells may only be cast as rituals. You spend half the time and cost for copying spells with the ritual tag into your spellbook . You can halve the casting time and double the duration of any spell you cast as a ritual.
14th Level, Superb Recall: You can cast any spell in your spellbook without preparing it. You must finish a short or long rest before using this feature again.
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| #2TherosOct 20, 2014 11:39:57 | I too felt underwhelmed by the 5e Wizard class. It's probably because it's more balanced now then in previous editions. Your subclass looks pretty good to me. The only change I would make would be make Imposing Magic a one use ability until you get a short or long rest. And allow it to be all attack rolls and saving throws for that spell. |
| #3OB1Oct 20, 2014 12:51:46 | Very nice. I may offer this to my players as a choice, but would make a few adjustments for my campaign.
Diverse Caster: Three instead of two, but all three must be from different schools. Imposing Magic: Twice per short rest advantage on melee spell attack or advantage saving against an opponent spell (worried that disadvantage against saving is to OP at early levels so I save that feature for later) Ritualist: No change but offer as a secondary choice/ Cantrip Master: Add Int Mod to Cantrips and gain one additional Wizard Cantrip Recall: No change (love this one!) Lvl 20 Dominating Magic: Once per long rest disadvantage on saving throw against a spell you cast
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| #4NevvurOct 20, 2014 18:08:29 | I'll soon add fluff to the descriptions like the schools specialists have, still working out the mechanics and awaiting more input before posting a 'final' draft.
I like the requirement of all three spells in Diverse Caster being from different schools, so I'll use that suggestion for sure.
Both seem to think Imposing Magic is overpowered. I like OB1's suggestion, except the specification of a melee spell attack. So twice per short rest, gain advantage on a spell attack roll, or gain advantage to save against a magical effect. Will need a new name for this feature, I think.
The choice of Ritual Master or Cantrip Master seems cool, too. Even when they're generalizing, mages are specializing. However, none of the schools get a choice like this, so I'm a little reluctant to adopt it. Also, only 3 of the 8 schools have damaging cantrips to benefit from the int mod bonus; I prefer something with a broader application. For now, I'm excluding Cantrip Master from my Mage subclass, but as in all things D&D, use what works for you and your table.
None of the schools gain a level 20 ability. Could be an alternative to Signature Spells, which is probably what you intended, but that one is magey enough for me already. Thanks for the feedback guys. Hope to hear more! |
| #5Coredump00Oct 20, 2014 19:03:27 |
2nd: With change to 3 different schools, plus the new cantrip. Looks Great
6th: I would keep the name, keep it at Int modifier, but only advantage on attack spells, not on taking saving throws.
10th: Love the idea; not sure about halving the casting and doubling the duration. But I also have not checked the spell list to see if it would be a problem or not. (In fact, makes me want to create a new subclass...The Ritualist.)
14th: I think that is good. If it is too powerful, you could make them use the spellbook as a 'scroll' to cast the spell. (but not expend the spell)
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| #6Thank_DogOct 20, 2014 19:10:28 | Looks alright, however if I was going to make a "Mage" sub-class, I think I'd focus on meta-magic. |
| #7Thank_DogOct 20, 2014 21:51:19 |
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| #8TrueManiekOct 21, 2014 1:40:36 | Nice I really like it…
Disadvantage on saving throws is powerful, I must admit.
How about playing a little with concentration. Like maybe you can have two concentration spell at once, but only when they are from different school of magic? |
| #9Thank_DogOct 21, 2014 2:25:27 |
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| #10TherosOct 21, 2014 3:38:25 |
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| #11NevvurMar 12, 2015 0:01:16 | I'm keen on doing something with concentration, but maintaining two spells for their duration with no other limitation is pushing it. Some ideas to balance that out...
1) Allow for two active concentration spells, but all concentration checks automatically fail. Autofailure does not apply if only concentrating on one spell of course. 2) Allow for two active concentration spells, but cannot cast any other spells while both are active. 3) Limit two active concentration spells to once per long rest, but then we have 3 subclass features on a rest timer, on top of the other 15-minute workday incentives.
Different tweaks to concentration mechanics:
1) If one concentration spell is cast while another is still active, the wizard can choose to extend the first spell's duration into the start of his next turn, rather than the first spell ending immediately. 2) Treat all concentration checks as DC 10 regardless of damage taken. Kind of OP when combined with Warcaster, though. 3) Gain advantage on concentration checks after casting the spell. This advantage is lost if you cast any spell that is not a cantrip.
Whichever option, I think Ritualist would be the class feature most likely to be replaced, and on further thought, tinkering with concentration at all might not be so appropriate for the wizard who can't seem to focus!
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| #12Thank_DogOct 21, 2014 14:10:42 |
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| #13NevvurOct 22, 2014 13:45:45 | Suggestions are still welcome, but I'm happy with this and will be letting my table's wizard start using it this weekend. Thanks again for your time folks!
Arcane Tradition: Mage
While many wizards focus their studies on a particular school of magic, some never find their niche. They may simply lack the focus to dedicate to one field of study, or prefer versatility to specialization. Whatever the case, the mage finds himself capable of overcoming any challenge by further expanding the wizard's flexibility.
2nd level, Diversity: The mage begins his career by exploring a variety of spells and techniques.
At this level and everytime you gain a wizard level, add three spells to your spellbook instead of two. Each spell must be from a different school of magic. You also gain an additional cantrip at 2nd level only. This cantrip cannot be from a school in which you already know a cantrip.
6th level, Adaptability: You demonstrate your versatility by timing your magical strikes, anticipating enemy casters, and interweaving your spells.
1) As a bonus action, gain advantage on a ranged or melee spell attack. If the spell affects multiple targets, choose only one attack roll. 2) As a reaction, gain advantage on a saving throw against a magical effect 3) If a spell that requires concentration is still active when another is cast, the first spell ends at the start of your next turn rather than immediately.
You can use this feature twice, but only once per round. Uses reset after a long rest.
10th Level, Ritualist: By studying the principles of casting employed by other magic users, you learn to adapt their techniques to your arcane repertoire. Such esoteric effects do not come easily, and require time to perform.
You may learn spells from any other class spell list if they have the ritual tag. Such spells may only be cast as rituals. You spend half the time and cost for copying spells with the ritual tag into your spellbook. You gain proficiency in the Arcana skill, or double your proficiency bonus if you already have it.
14th Level, Superb Recall: You can cast any spell in your spellbook without first preparing it. You still spend a Spell Slot for that spell's level. You must finish a short or long rest before using this feature again. |
| #14thehobbOct 22, 2014 11:15:49 | What are the detriments to this subclass that compensate for its benefits?
Or in other words, what features does a normal wizard lose to obtain this subclass? |
| #15TherosOct 22, 2014 11:53:14 | He’s not getting an ability score improvement. I’ll assume that’s a typo.
No spell mastery or signature spell at 18th and 20th level respectively.
Otherwise it’s just like any other arcane tradition. Except it’s quite a bit better than the schools listed, unless your going for a niche spell build.
It’s probably not going to break the game, but if I was playing a wizard, I really couldn’t see myself taking any other tradition. All the ability’s are amazing. |
| (Reply to #15)Nevvur |
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| #17ChrisCarlsonOct 22, 2014 13:47:38 |
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| #18SterlingRatOct 22, 2014 14:02:08 | I agree with the others about #6 being a bit too powerful. I would actually limit it to just option #2 for flavor reasons... the whole idea of a mage is that they understand and adapt to a broad range of magical teachings. It makes sense that they would be better able to understand and defend themselves against magical influence. |
| (Reply to #16)thehobb |
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| #20NevvurOct 22, 2014 16:37:09 | lol, back to the drawing board? Good analysis and observations. 6th level still seems to be the biggest 'problem feature.' Taking into account the above suggestions, switching some other stuff around too...
2) Ritualist: Add two spells with the ritual tag to your spellbook. Halve the time and cost of adding spells with the ritual tag to your spellbook. --- no more cross class stuff, gain free access to bread and butter mage spells (Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Illusory Script, Unseen Servant are the only Spell Level 1 wizard rituals)
6) Anticipation: As a reaction, gain advantage on one saving throw against a magical effect. Finish a short rest before using again --- Alright, you guys convinced me, the last version was still OP. Dropping the attack and concentration options as much to prevent that as to preserve flavor. The attack advantage does seem out of place for how I imagine mages operate. I haven't done an extensive review of concentration spells, but I do worry there's an overlapping concentration combo lurking out there waiting to be exploited.
10) Diversity: Add 3 spells to your spell book at this level, and every level after. All three spells must be from different schools of magic, and one of these spells must not exceed Spell Level 5 -- moved to level 10, so big reduction in number and a 5th level limit on the freebies. I'm not convinced a huge spell book is such a problem to begin with, because as a DM I normally work with my players to fulfill their character concept, up to and including 'finding' the spell they're looking for. That is, random loot isn't usually so random, if the player request is reasonable. That's all DM style, though.
14) Recall: Use one action to Recall a spell from your spell book that you have not prepared. You may cast the spell on the next round during your turn. The spell must be cast at its original spell slot/level. Failure to cast the spell on the next round does not expend a spell slot, but the recalled spell cannot be cast after that round. You must finish a long rest before using this feature again -- I take to heart the point that the last version eliminated the biggest limitation on wizards -- needing to prepare ahead of time. I think the delay of 1 action is a significant penalty to overcoming that limitation... Plus I just really really like the idea of fetching an unprepared spell, so there's that.
It's funny, I thought I was erring on the side of underpowered on the first post. Of course I need to remind myself that when it comes to homebrew, there's no pleasing everyone, and even the RAW classes/archetypes receive a good deal of criticism. I've yet to see anyone say "Yes, this was perfectly designed and is expertly balanced against all the other classes," and if such a thing existed in the eyes of one person, another will disagree. Anyway, thanks again for your time guys! |
| #21ChrisCarlsonOct 22, 2014 16:39:30 | I like this much better. Or, should I say...
Yes, this was perfectly designed and is expertly balanced against all the other classes. |
| #22AnsbachOct 22, 2014 19:13:34 | I like this, and FWIW - advantage on one roll with a short rest to recharge is not OP at all when you do the math. Advantage (and disadvantage) is way overrated at first glance. |