Personally, I kind of like this model. It's easier to budget, and all of the online content gets plugged into the online tools automatically, including the Dungeon adventures.
How does a post about Sigil and planar cosmology "prove" annual updates to campaign setting books?
Did you read the rest of the thread. The 100% confirmation is specifically talking about the conversation of "3 books and out."
Did you read the rest of the thread. The 100% confirmation is specifically talking about the conversation of "3 books and out."
Ah, no. The link was a "single post" link - hence my confusion.
I think the model can work, my only concern is that, in the end, we'll never get a book about the other nations of Khorvaire
I love the idea because it streamlines the system and lets everyone know what they need to buy. I hate the idea because I want more books than just those 3! I mean some of my favorite supplement books (5 Nations, The Forge of War, The Secrets of Sarlona, Unapproachable East, Silver Marches, etc.) were all expansions upon campaign setting. Now I could see limiting older settings (Darksun, Spelljammer, etc.) to this model but not the Flagships Settings! They deserve more books because they have a proven track record. Now does that mean WotC can waste people's time and money on really bad books? NO! But it does mean that WotC should release book caliber material in book form (but only if they have enough for a real book (not like that Dungeon Survival Guide or any of those similar books
).Surely, this announcement quite toubles me.
My impression is that WotC points towards a more mechanic and less role game. 3 books and out is too restrictive, because even a relatively young setting like Eberron (Hurray!!!) had in 3.5 many more.
I could see it happening.
However... this bothers me. I was looking forward to 4E Eberron, and I confess that if this rumor is proven to be true, my excitement will go down considerably.
Particularly, I will be sad because we will never see supplements about the other nations of Khorvaire. Darguun, Zilargo, Shadow Mashes, Lzaar, Q'Barra, Demon Wasters, Droaam, Valenar, Mror Holds - all of them deserve a better treatment than 3.5 give them.
[rant]They could have really provided more info about them, if it wasn't Wotc's obsession with drows and dragons. It's funny how in Eberron, hobgoblins built an empire that covered an entire continent and lasted ten thousand years, while drows are just a bunch of jungle-dwelling savages, but there are probably at least ten times more pages on Eberron supplements depicting drows than hobgoblins. Only to try to sell Eberron to the Drizzt fanboys...
[/rant]It's true that not all supplements are great, and on excess the lack of quality/imagination becomes evident. But not having ANY supplement is too radical. I loved Sharn, Five Nations, Faiths of Eberron, and Dragonmark - and my Eberron experience wouldn't have been the same without them.
Particularly, I will be sad because we will never see supplements about the other nations of Khorvaire. Darguun, Zilargo, Shadow Mashes, Lzaar, Q'Barra, Demon Wasters, Droaam, Valenar, Mror Holds -
As others have said, there's no way to truly know if the "Three and Out" philosophy is going to hold. In all likelihood it's going to depend on factors like the sales of those core three products.
With that said, this is where I expect to see more in the way of true "Features" in DDI. You may not get a Five Eastern Nations sourcebook with Valenar, Lhazaar, Q'barra, Mror, and the Talenta Plains - but it's possible that you'll get a DDI Q'barra feature that is essentially the same chapter you'd have seen in that book.
Mind you, no promises there - obviously I'm not even a WotC employee. But it is my hope and belief that even if the three-and-out plan holds, there will be opportunity to explore significant subjects through DDI, in addition to just the minor Dragonshard-sized pieces.
As others have said, there's no way to truly know if the "Three and Out" philosophy is going to hold. In all likelihood it's going to depend on factors like the sales of those core three products.
With that said, this is where I expect to see more in the way of true "Features" in DDI. You may not get a Five Eastern Nations sourcebook with Valenar, Lhazaar, Q'barra, Mror, and the Talenta Plains - but it's possible that you'll get a DDI Q'barra feature that is essentially the same chapter you'd have seen in that book.
Mind you, no promises there - obviously I'm not even a WotC employee. But it is my hope and belief that even if the three-and-out plan holds, there will be opportunity to explore significant subjects through DDI, in addition to just the minor Dragonshard-sized pieces.
Yeah I know... but I find it a bit contradictory for them to say that "D&D 4th edition will still be primarily a pen-an-paper game" and at the same time "Only those who join D&D Insider will be able to see the full stuff".
Anyway, if the rumor is true... I hope that WotC, after releasing the three books, would at least license Eberron to someone who wishes to continue writting to it. For instance, you. :D
Yeah I know... but I find it a bit contradictory for them to say that "D&D 4th edition will still be primarily a pen-an-paper game" and at the same time "Only those who join D&D Insider will be able to see the full stuff".
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.
Let's put like this: an "pen-and-paper" RPG is one that could be played using... pen and paper. As long you have the proper books, I expect it's not necessary for you to pay a monthly subscription, bring a computer to the table and connect to the internet to get some specific information during the game, for instance.
It's like online gamers have an advantage over tabletop gamers. Online gamers pay the monthly subscription, but they don't need to buy any books, since they can access all information they want through the rules data bases.
Tabletop gamers need to buy the books and they ALSO need to pay the monthly subscription if they want to see anything except the "Intoductory" material for his favorite settings. It's weird.
Yeah, I know that the tabletop gamers may bring a computer to the table, connect to internet and access D&D Insider during the play, thus eliminating the need of buying books. But it's not the same experience.
Although Bill Slavicsek said:
With D&D Insider, we're offering an optional online component to 4th Edition D&D. It consists of magazine content, player aids, Dungeon Master tools, and a D&D Game Table that allows you to play the pen-and-paper D&D game over the Internet. These features are in addition to our regular selection of analog products. They don’t replace them.
... it seems that each day, D&D Insider is becoming more "mandatory" and analog books are becoming more "optional".
Perhaps that's the natural tendency and it's me who is getting too old.
EDIT: Before I give the impression that I'm "really" upset, I admit that it's better that this "extra campaign content" to be available at D&D Insider, than to not be available at all. I actually also bring my laptop to the table for quite a time, so this experience is not that unfamiliar to me. I'm seriously considering joining D&D Insider, but I just don't like the feeling of being "forced" do do that because analog content is getting less and less support.
As others have said, there's no way to truly know if the "Three and Out" philosophy is going to hold. In all likelihood it's going to depend on factors like the sales of those core three products.
With that said, this is where I expect to see more in the way of true "Features" in DDI. You may not get a Five Eastern Nations sourcebook with Valenar, Lhazaar, Q'barra, Mror, and the Talenta Plains - but it's possible that you'll get a DDI Q'barra feature that is essentially the same chapter you'd have seen in that book.
Mind you, no promises there - obviously I'm not even a WotC employee. But it is my hope and belief that even if the three-and-out plan holds, there will be opportunity to explore significant subjects through DDI, in addition to just the minor Dragonshard-sized pieces.
I'm with you in hoping and believing the DDI will give us the parts we are hoping for without additional books. I'm thrilled that Eberron has it's own DM, Player's and MM book.
That's how I wanted it!Let's see what happens but for now, I'm all on board for 4th Edition.
EK
I cannot take DDI into the bathroom. Books yes, but my PC does not work like that.
I used to have the same problem when I wanted to read DDI articles in the bathroom. Then I discovered this amazing tool - it's called a "printer". Check it out! ;)
Seriously, though, I think it's all about finances. Consider the risk that WotC takes when they put out a book. I don't know what sales are like, but the availability of cheap Eberron books on halfprice.com and similar places shows that they certainly aren't selling out of them. When you compare the financial risk of putting out a Five Nations source book to putting out five articles on DDI, there's obviously a significant difference. So I don't think it's a question of getting them on DDI or print - I think it's DDI or not at all.
Unless, of course, the sales of the core 4E Eberron books are so amazingly high that they decide additional Eberron sourcebooks are a worthwhile investment... which, I suppose (and hope) could happen.
It is not the same. Pages
Personally, I use a three-ring binder. I actually prefer it to the print magazine (which is why I have PDFs of a number of Paizo issues) because I can isolate just the articles that interest me; I have a binder that has the Dragon articles on the Lords of Dust, Cults of the Dragon Below, etc all in one place instead of having to track down the particular issues for each article.
- Arcane Guyver, a "Me Too" kinda guy ;)
Personally, I use a three-ring binder. I actually prefer it to the print magazine (which is why I have PDFs of a number of Paizo issues) because I can isolate just the articles that interest me; I have a binder that has the Dragon articles on the Lords of Dust, Cults of the Dragon Below, etc all in one place instead of having to track down the particular issues for each article.
Not to be a "me too" kind of guy, but I also prefer this method because it's much easier to consolidate similar resources found in the magazine. Class Acts is an example of this as is Campaign Workbook. With an electronic copy, I can print them and place them in a binder or copy and paste them into my own master document. Heck, I'm planning on buying PDF copies of [Paizo] Dungeon Magazines just so I can consolidate my own notebook of Campaign Workbook articles.
With a printed magazine, I have to shuffle through a heavy stack of floppy, slick cover, magazines composed of fragile paper in hopes that I might be able to find that one piece of information.
I cannot take DDI into the bathroom. Books yes, but my PC does not work like that. So books > DDI to me at this point. ;)
Weird.... I go to the bathroom to answer mother nature's call and then go back to my laptop and continue reading.
I must be a freak of nature.
EK
Richard Baker
Hi, WF, thanks for stopping by...
If by "regular" you mean a monthly column, I'm not sure that is in the plans. But I would hope to see FR-specific content showing up every issue or two. That depends a little bit on what you guys tell the Dragon editorial staff that you want to see. As far as announced in advance, usually they'll tell people about next month's feature articles. I would expect to see a mix of background/setting info (Brian James has a great Cormyr article on the way, for example) and FR-themed Dungeon adventures. Again, public feedback to the magazine editors will influence how much FR material they try to line up.
As far as moving away from print product goes, part of it is simply the fact that any FR game sourcebook we produce appeals to only a subset of the broader D&D audience. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a FR book creeping back onto the schedule eventually. We're not working on any right now, but the right opportunity/product is going to come around sooner or later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WFMaranto
Rich,
I read the news posted from GAMA today and was very saddened to see that there will only be three Forgotten Realms print products in 4E. I have a few questions about that:
1) Will there be regular, announced-in-advance FR features on DDI/Dragon/Dungeon?
2) If so, will these be similar to FR regional sourcebooks, Web Articles (like the Voonlar articles by Ed Greenwood or Mintiper's Chapbook) or will they be adventures?
3) Why have you as a company decided to move away from FR print products?
Many of us want to stay faithful boosters of FR and D&D, but lack of support could really pull a lot of my enthusiasm and money out of the hobby...
__________________
Rich Baker
Senior Designer
Roleplaying R&D
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
If by "regular" you mean a monthly column, I'm not sure that is in the plans. But I would hope to see FR-specific content showing up every issue or two. That depends a little bit on what you guys tell the Dragon editorial staff that you want to see. As far as announced in advance, usually they'll tell people about next month's feature articles. I would expect to see a mix of background/setting info (Brian James has a great Cormyr article on the way, for example) and FR-themed Dungeon adventures. Again, public feedback to the magazine editors will influence how much FR material they try to line up.
As far as moving away from print product goes, part of it is simply the fact that any FR game sourcebook we produce appeals to only a subset of the broader D&D audience. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find a FR book creeping back onto the schedule eventually. We're not working on any right now, but the right opportunity/product is going to come around sooner or later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WFMaranto
Rich,
I read the news posted from GAMA today and was very saddened to see that there will only be three Forgotten Realms print products in 4E. I have a few questions about that:
1) Will there be regular, announced-in-advance FR features on DDI/Dragon/Dungeon?
2) If so, will these be similar to FR regional sourcebooks, Web Articles (like the Voonlar articles by Ed Greenwood or Mintiper's Chapbook) or will they be adventures?
3) Why have you as a company decided to move away from FR print products?
Many of us want to stay faithful boosters of FR and D&D, but lack of support could really pull a lot of my enthusiasm and money out of the hobby...
__________________
Rich Baker
Senior Designer
Roleplaying R&D
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
If its true for FR they we should expect the same for Eberron?
I expect that it is. The "Three and Out" thing is an idea. They're going to try it and see what happens. But just like no one is going to come to your house and murder you if you decide that the Lord of Blades is really a little warforged girl (just to add a third player to the Jaela-Vol match-up), it's not like anyone will be fired if in two years they say "Wow, those Eberron books did great - let's do another one."
More than that, however, what's true for FR is true for Eberron in another way: Tell the DDI editors what you want to see. As I said, I'm working on a big Eberron article right now (and I'll go ahead and say what I said on another thread - not only is this longer than any of my free articles, it's longer than any article I wrote for Paizo). But since you don't buy the article individually, they won't magically know what you like and want to see more of. So if you want monthly Eberron articles, more big articles, adventures, or whatever - make sure you let them know! The previous planes effort was good and something I can point to, but it never hurts to keep it going.
I expect that it is. The "Three and Out" thing is an idea. They're going to try it and see what happens. But just like no one is going to come to your house and murder you if you decide that the Lord of Blades is really a little warforged girl (just to add a third player to the Jaela-Vol match-up), it's not like anyone will be fired if in two years they say "Wow, those Eberron books did great - let's do another one."
Actually, to use the WW model for an example. This has happened, the Changeling: The Lost books have sold extremely well, better then expected. As such WW is making another Changeling book, and said they will see what they will do from there.
So WoTC could do something similar, for each setting start with the three if the number of sales is good enough, add another book, if that does well maybe start making it permanent.
Eberron is going through a process like FR did years ago for me. It is new to everyone so people need more. Other players see people playing it and liking it and telling cool RPG stories about it so they get into it. I realize now though that I don't need a ton of books to make a good game. Just a book or two a year (really good books) would do for me and if I could get great quality articles from you in DDI (which I will put in a binder now ;) ) I will be set.
I'm with you in hoping and believing the DDI will give us the parts we are hoping for without additional books. I'm thrilled that Eberron has it's own DM, Player's and MM book.
EK
Eberron won't have its own MM book. It was "a campaign guide, a player's guide, and an adventure", isn't that?
I cannot take DDI into the bathroom. Books yes, but my PC does not work like that. So books > DDI to me at this point.
My problem is not exactly the online vs. print issue. My problem is to have to subscript to DDI. I know that for many people here, the subscription price is unexpensive, but I usually don't spend US$ 120 a year on books. Even when I spend that value or higher, at least I can CHOOSE what I'm buying and I can buy only what I will actually use.
With DDI, it doesn't work like that. D&D Online Table is useless to me. I'll be paying every month and I will have no guarantee that I will have someone of my interest. For instance, if in a month they publish only Forgotten Realms articles and a single-page Eberron article, I won't think my money is being well used. It's like buying a Miniatures Bolster Pack, but it's a Rules Bolster Back instead.
Seriously, though, I think it's all about finances. Consider the risk that WotC takes when they put out a book. I don't know what sales are like, but the availability of cheap Eberron books on halfprice.com and similar places shows that they certainly aren't selling out of them. When you compare the financial risk of putting out a Five Nations source book to putting out five articles on DDI, there's obviously a significant difference. So I don't think it's a question of getting them on DDI or print - I think it's DDI or not at all.
I understand Wotc's commercial reasons. I'm just a bit in a gripe that first they said hat "DDI will be completely optional" and now we see that it won't be that "optional". It won't surprise me if they decide that PHB3/DM3/MM3 will be online only.
I'm just a bit in a gripe that first they said hat "DDI will be completely optional" and now we see that it won't be that "optional". It won't surprise me if they decide that PHB3/DM3/MM3 will be online only.
What's your definition of "optional?" In this case, if it means something other than "Not required to play 4e D&D," you might want to re-evaluate things. I don't think you'll have to worry about core books being online-only, either (fans and bean-counters alike would have a fit).
I know I won't be subscribing, but I may pick it up for a month a few times a year (say April, August & December) to catch up on all the magazine-y content. In no way do I feel it's required to enjoy the game or one of it's mods/settings.
It's the best campaign they've ever made, period, and we haven't gotten enough yet.
It's the only campaign they've ever made. ;)
I'd just like to say that his sucks hard. I love the eberron books. Between revisiting some of the great old campaign settings and examining eberron further, i'd have to go with more eberron.
So the question I have is who we should be telling this to. We're posters on an Eberron message board, so in saying this sort of thing we're all presumably preaching to the choir. But if we DO want to send a message to WotC asking them to reconsider this policy (or at least to consider licensing out the settings they no longer intend to support), who should we be writing to? What can we do to show support? (Send a box of dragonshards to the Wizards of the Coast office?)
Honestly, I don't expect something like an online petition to make much difference, because we just don't have the numbers to really stand out to WotC. Let's face it, only around 200 people voted for Eberron in that "Best of" poll on ENWorld, and that was in spite of rallying campaigns there and here. 200 people saying "More Eberron!" isn't going to change a corporate policy. On the other hand, it was online action that caused WotC to reconsider advancing the Eberron timeline (though I'd argue that there it was a combination of action by some Eberron fans and the huge outcry by FR fans).
So I don't know if there is anything we can do. But it seems like there's got to be something more potentially productive that just saying "This sucks!" on an Eberron board. But if anyone has any ideas as to how best to campaign for WotC to reconsider the policy, post 'em!
That's my idea, anyways.
In addition to fanboyism here on the Eberron forum, play numbers in RPGA Eberron would likely also go a long way to showing broad support for Eberron.
Additionally, contacting Customer Service with your comments is a very direct way to show support for the products you enjoy.
If you're lucky enough to catch WotC people at conventions, take a moment to clearly state your opinion there as well (don't talk their ear off though, it's a habit too many of us have).
Eberron won't have its own MM book. It was "a campaign guide, a player's guide, and an adventure", isn't that?
My bad I jumped too quick. It is the Eberron Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to Eberron, and DM’s Guide to Eberron. My players then only have to worry about the Player's guide and the regular Player's handbook, I get the rest.
:D
EK
My bad I jumped too quick. It is the Eberron Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to Eberron, and DM’s Guide to Eberron. My players then only have to worry about the Player's guide and the regular Player's handbook, I get the rest.
:D
EK
The original blogger said it would be a Campaign Setting, DM Guide, and Player Guide. That has been corrected here on the forums to be A Campaign Setting (DM Guide), Player Guide, and an introductory Adventure.
I wanted to take a few moments to clarify what I said at GTS last week. In regards to campaign settings, our goal for this edition is to make each setting we release unique and exciting on its own while still making it usable in any D&D campaign. Now, what exactly does that mean?
You wouldn't believe how many times over the years I've heard people say "I play in [insert favorite campaign setting here] so product X is of no use to me," or "I only play Core D&D (whatever that means) so I can't use that [insert campaign setting here] product." I plan to change that under 4th Edition by getting the word out that it's okay to mix and match. Go ahead. Get peanut butter in the chocolate. Some of the best campaigns I ever ran or had the pleasure to play in had a little bit of [insert campaign setting here] mixed with a smattering of [insert other campaign setting here] and combined all that with homebrew ideas to create something totally new and different.
So under 4th Edition, we're making every product look like a core product. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide releasing in August, for example, is a separate and unique setting on one hand, while being totally core D&D on the other. That means you can play a strictly Forgotten Realms campaign, or you can borrow the bits you like best to use in whatever D&D campaign you're playing in. This has always been true, but you wouldn't believe how many players were reluctant to cross the streams like that. I say cross away! (At least as far as your personal campaigns are concerned.) Why not use the best ideas, powers, feats, monsters, villains, and plot hooks from any product -- regardless of the campaign world your game is set in?
This means we won't be producing campaign lines, per se. For the Forgotten Realms, for example, you'll get the Campaign Guide, Player's Guide, and an adventure as physical products, as well as our ongoing line of bestselling novels, and plenty of ongoing support via D&D Insider. If a product idea comes along later that makes sense, we'll do it, but there won't be an ongoing regular release schedule of Forgotten Realms game products. Why not? Because every D&D product we do is a Forgotten Realms [or insert your favorite campaign setting here] game product. This is a subtle but significant change in philosophy geared toward making all players D&D players. It just makes the products and the brand stronger if every player is using the same material.
This is significantly different than what has occurred in the past. We won't be making the mistakes of line proliferation that helped sink TSR, and we won't be actively segmenting our audience. Instead we'll be providing all kinds of options and ideas through the core line of D&D RPG products. It's all D&D, all the time.
The model described above will be used every year, and we'll focus on a different campaign setting. Next year, we'll give this treatment to Eberron. After that? Well, we'll be exploring the best worlds from our vault, as well as creating new worlds as warranted. I can't guarantee which worlds will see this treatment as of yet, but chances are that your favorite campaign setting is on my list for consideration. And for all of them, in addition to the physical products we do, you'll see novels and novel lines (as appropriate), and ongoing support that continues to explore the worlds through D&D Insider. This plan makes D&D stronger, without sacrificing the heart of any campaign setting.
It seems that Wotc's strategy is to make everyone sign to DDI. Because most who truly enjoy a campaign setting won't be satisfied on playing a unsupported setting and will feel compelled to sign to DDI.
The argument "Everyone will be happy because every book is now for every campaign setting" seems pretty lame. Obviously it works for supplements which provide only "powers, feats, monsters, villains, and plot hooks", as Slacvisek said. But it's also obvious that we will never have a "Five Nations" or "Dragonmarked" book because this isn't the sort of thing which applies to "every campaign setting".
Those who refuse to join DDI may eventually switch to 3rd party publishers making settings that get support without the need of paying a monthly fee. I wonder if campaign setting supplements are that unprofitable that it doesn't matter for WotC - or they are really confident that they can stop selling books because everyone will want to join DDI.
But since you don't buy the article individually, they won't magically know what you like and want to see more of.
*cough*
http://www.google.com/analytics/
*cough*
...actually...they could :D
So I don't know if there is anything we can do. But it seems like there's got to be something more potentially productive that just saying "This sucks!" on an Eberron board. But if anyone has any ideas as to how best to campaign for WotC to reconsider the policy, post 'em!
1) Populate websites and forums devoted to Eberron.
2) Convince fellow players to play in Eberron.
3) Submit Eberron articles/adventures to DDI.
4) When such articles appear, subscribe and express generally positive or constructive comments on them.
Basically, promote the setting amongst buyers. If more people buy the Core Three, and let WotC know that they play in Eberron, making a new Eberron book will look like a safe investment for WotC.
The original blogger said it would be a Campaign Setting, DM Guide, and Player Guide. That has been corrected here on the forums to be A Campaign Setting (DM Guide), Player Guide, and an introductory Adventure.
Geez info is hard to find on this site. Ok got it, thanks Wolfstar! :D
As long as the players get their book and they don't need the Campaign Setting book, I'm all good.
EK