Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tiwaztyrsfist May 31, 2008 11:38:09	So, I have an idea for how to do Dragonmarks in 4th Ed, now that I've had a chance to actually look at the books. The easiest way to explain is to post samples. Dragonmark: Least Mark of Passage Prereq: Human (House Orien) You develop the Least Mark of Passage. You gain a +2 bonus on Dungeoneering (closest to survival in my opinion) checks, and may choose to retrain one skill to Dungeoneering for free. You replace one of your Lvl1 Daily powers with the Dimension Leap power. Dimension Leap DragonMark LVL 1 Daily Draconic Prophecy, Implement, Teleport Move Action Personal Shift up to 2 squares per character level. You don't cross the intervening distance. Also, you may shift an additional square per point of implement bonus. The Implement for Draconic Prophecy powers is an attuned Dragonshard.
#2 snarky_monkey Jun 02, 2008 22:59:00	I was thinking something along the same lines but perhaps like this. Heroic Tier Feat Least Mark of Passage [Human] Daily Power : Expeditious Retreat or Fey Step Skill : Nature +2 Since there is no equatable "mount" spell that I have heard of, this is as far as I have gotten. Each level of mark would appear at each tier, giving the three marks. Each level of mark would replace the previous one's powers, in a similar way of having the choice to swap out abilities normally. Obviously, Dragonmark powers couldn't be swapped any other way.
#3 grafster Jun 03, 2008 0:03:13	There have been a lot of threads about this. I think that "replacing" powers based on the multi-classing system is wrong (as in not the best way to do it). MC is built the way it is because it has to be "future proofed". They don't know what's going to appear in the future. With the dragonmarks you know exactly what power you're giving out. There's no need to force a swap (and it's a bad idea because the new books will inevitably give you better class powers). ============= SM's suggestion of giving out a feat that gives you "Expeditious Retreat + lots of other stuff" is sick and wrong. I'd be shocked if they make it that awesome (=overpowered). ============= This is my current spitball: PS I don't have the books yet, so... you know it's not good. But it's an idea. With the info we have now about rituals I'm thinking they might get a ritual as a standard action (mimicing the effect of identify, etc in 3.5). Dragonmarks 4e Assumptions/goals Follow the 4e design philosophy (exceptions based, simple, cool powers with minimal bookkeeping) Balanced attractive options Given the preceding as-close-as-possible-match to 3.5 fluff (and mechanics). (these aren't supposed to be the most awesome uber powers out there, a dragonmarked character who is "ported" over to 4e will feel very similar to 3.5) So [INDENT] Marks function largely as they did in 3.5, thematically if not mechanically Marks increase in functionality as they grow and you must get mark powers in order (Least -> Lesser ->Greater) I haven't tried to force everything into one big clunky system. I think that's the route to massive-balance-issues (and the reason why 3.5 marks generally suck). There's one intro feat, called Least Dragonmark and everything after that is prerequisite based but otherwise organic. While I hunger for attractive (or at least interesting) dragonmarked items and originally wanted the feats to give them out I've restrained myself. It's too much of a change in fluff to give everyone (or certain houses with "weak" marks) their own personal magical items. Likewise, Favored in House is not in evidence. I think that the "social bonuses" thing was bad for a feat and it's an even poorer fit for 4e. I've tried to make the cantrips useful (at least somewhat) at later levels and balance out the more powerful by forcing them to be sustained with minor actions. I'd like the Least/Lesser mark abilities to improve if you "level up" you mark. The only actual implementation of this ability is present in the Mark of Finding though. That sort of thing makes stuff longer than I like. Some sort of slashed notation would probably be best. Example: Slow Fall Instant Interrupt: The distance you fall is reduced 20/40/100 feet. [/INDENT] For the record I use the word "Cantrip" below. Honestly some of the cantrips are probably massively abusive and would never work as wizard powers. Just think of them as at-will abilities. And a lot of the cantrips are made up, extensions of the powers that I think the house gets at later levels. Least Dragonmark [Dragonmarked] Perquisite: appropriate Dragonmarked Race for your mark Benefit House skill +2. select one House cantrip from your House entry. You may use it as an at will power. may use Dragonmarked items/rituals related to your mark So the feat grants a small ability useful at will, as opposed to an ability of variable power that's utilizable once or twice a day. I had an 'extra action point' thing/and a +2 to haggle/negotiate but I dropped it. The action point was probably "too good" and while I dearly loved the haggle/negotiate it's a fact that the mark can appear on someone who grew up outside of the merchant house. [INDENT][INDENT]Dragonmarked Houses Mark of Detection House: Medani House Skill: Perception House Cantrip: Detect Magic OR Detect Poison Never understood why Medani got spot and Deneith got sense motive. But the fluff say it be so. Mark of Finding House: Tharashk House Skill: Perception House Cantrip: Sense Target OR ?? [INDENT]Sense Target You may mark a target within 30 feet as standard action and maintain as a minor action. So long as you maintain this power you may sense the direction and distance to the target so long as you remain within 20 squares. If you have a lesser mark or greater mark the distance increases to 200 squares and 5 miles respectively. If you possess the ability to mark a target through another abilty you may combine it with this mark. [/INDENT] That last sentence is supposed to mean you mark someone with your fighters mark and you'll also get a "finding mark" attached for free. Awkward wording is my speci-al-ity. Mark of Handling House: Vadalis House Skill: Knowledge Nature House Cantrip: Speak with Animal OR ??? (speaking of unattractive choices... still without animal companions it's hard for me to think of anything that isn't weak or swingy (i.e. charm animal)) Mark of Healing House: Jorasco House Skill: Healing House Cantrip: Touch of Rejuvenation OR Stabilize[INDENT] Touch of Rejuvenation Five minutes after this cantrip is used the target heals as if they had spent a healing surge. The target must resting (sit or lie down, taking no actions) for the full five minutes. Any action more strenuous than talking will cancel the cantrip with no effect. A person can benefit from Touch of Rejuvenation no more than once a day. Stabilize As a minor action you can automatically stabilize a dying person without a healing check. You must be adjacent to the person and able to touch them.[/INDENT] Mark of Hospitality House: Ghallanda House skill: Diplomacy House Cantrip: Unseen Servant OR Prestidigitation Prestidigitation supposedly exists, and they'll keep unseen servant for sure. Anyway prestidigitation is supposed to really good and it's a very general power so.... Mark of Making House: Cannith House skill: Arcana (no more craft; anyway they make magic stuff, it's not like they're fixing people's shoes) House Cantrip: Mending OR Rejuvenate Construct [INDENT]Mending You may temporarily repair a broken object as a standard action. You must have most of the pieces that made up the object with you. Lasts for a day. Only use on an object once before it is properly repaired. I see this as being an anti-sunder power. Somebody broke your magic sword? The Mark of Making can put it back together for you, once, for a 24 period. Good at any level. Rejuvenate Construct Per Touch of Rejuvenation but on constructs[/INDENT]. Mark of Passage House: Orien House skill: Survival House Cantrip: Quick feet OR Safe fall [INDENT]Quick Feet Cast as a minor action. You may move an extra 5 feet on any one move action you make this round. Safe Fall Instant Interrupt [Trigger: falling 10 feet or more]. Any distance you fall is reduced 20 feet.[/INDENT] Mark of Scribing House: Sivis House skill: Insight (gnomes are sneaky! Sivis gnomes are -extra- sneaky. No? Ok. I got nothing then. Decipher Script isn't a knowledge...) House Cantrip: Arcane Mark OR Message [INDENT]Arcane Mark Whatever it does in the book? (in theory this is useful for forging documents... but I don't think it fulfills the "attractive" thing.) Message ditto[/INDENT] I confess to loving Sivis but having trouble thinking of anything good for their cantrips; hopefully message is still around... It sort of fits with the whole speaking stones thing. Mark of the Sentinel House: Deneith House skill: Perception House Cantrip: Low Light Vision OR Watch the threat [INDENT]Low Light Vision You have low light vision until the beginning of your next turn. You may maintain this power with a minor action. Watch the Threat Cast this spell as a standard action, maintain as a minor. For the duration of the spell you know if the target attacks anyone provided they are within 100 feet of you. If combat is started by your target then you receive a +4 bonus on initiative and the attacker can not receive combat advantage against you on the first round of combat.[/INDENT] (Ok, obviously not the same powers they got from the old Least Mark of the Sentinel, but that stuff (shielding other people, etc) couldn't really be "pulled down a level".) Mark of Shadow House: Phiarlan OR Thuranni House skill: Stealth House Cantrip: Darkness OR ?? [INDENT]Darkness Assume the opposite of light.[/INDENT] (we know light exists and is a cantrip... You could have like Mage Hand but with a shadow hand... urg. Must stop stretching before I hurt myself...) Mark of Storm House: Lyrandar House skill: Athletics (pretty awesome for an adventurer) House Cantrip: Light(?) OR Wind Hand [INDENT]Wind Hand Like mage hand but a gust of wind does it...[/INDENT] (Again with the not having any idea what they should get. Light could be a St. Elmo's fire sorta glow... (Look... I only have three frigging cantrips to work with here...)) Mark of Warding House: Kundarak House skill: Perception House Cantrip: Rapid Search OR Ward of Watching [INDENT]Rapid Search You can search a 10x10 area as a minor action. This cantrip can only be used on a given area once a day. Ward of Watching You can cause a magical ward to appear on any stationary object (wall, floor,). Provided you are within 6 squares of the ward you may make a perception check to notice any creature size S or greater entering a 5 burst (centered on the ward) designated when you create the ward. You may make this check even if you are distracted (asleep, etc). If you succeed you are aware of the creature and it's size. If you succeed and you are asleep you may automatically wake up.[/INDENT] Ward of Watching seems so obvious to me in my head (the ward produces a cone where you have a chance to detect approaching creatures even if you're doing something else) but it's really hard to think of decent wording. It's basically a cheapo one direction alarm spell. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Then you just build the feats for each spell-like-ability you want available. The prerequisite and benefits line build an fully-tweakable emergent structure. The structure's only visible if the reader looks for it, and theoretically, each power is balanced to a reasonable degree of granularity (and thus can be "attractive" without worrying about being "too good") [INDENT]Dragonmarked Spell-like Abilities (via feats) Least Healing Touch [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Halfling, Least Mark of Healing, 3rd level Benefit: You may cast Cure Light Wounds twice a day. Lesser Healing Touch [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Halfling, Least Mark of Healing, 7th level Benefit: You may cast Cure Serious Wounds twice a day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark. Dimension Leap [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of Passage, 4th level Benefit: You may use fey step (per eladrin) 1/encounter. Expeditious Retreat [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of Passage, 6th level Benefit: You may cast expeditious retreat 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark. Eyebiter [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Elf, Least Mark of Shadow, 2nd level Benefit: You may cast eyebite 1/encounter. Identifier [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Half-orc, Least Mark of Finding, 2nd level Benefit: You may cast identify 1/day. You are considered trained in Knowledge Arcana for the spells duration. Mirror Defense Prerequisites: Elf, Lesser Mark of Shadow, 10th level Benefit: You may cast mirror image 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark. Protect the Customer [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of the Sentinel, 2nd level Benefit: You may use martyr's blessing (Paladin 2 utility power) 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark. Stormlord [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Elf, Lesser Mark of Storm, 3 other dragonmarked feats; 12th level Benefit: You may cast lightning bolt 1/encounter. You are considered to have a Greater Dragonmark. Reinforce Construct [Dragonmark] Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of the Making, 4th level Benefit: You grant a construct temporary hit points as if it had used a healing surge 2/day. These last for 5 minutes. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark. [/INDENT] Some pros Each extra mark power is just a few lines. A lot easier for the DM to check instead of having to look for the power in several different places. The Dragonmarked Heir is just a mass of needless page flipping. Feats are one place, spells another, then other feats and PrCs modify your caster level. Ugh. Each spell like ability can be tailored to specifically balance it against other options (feats) and classes. Want to make sure Clerics are still "the best healer"? Clerics get CLW at 2nd level, but you can hold it until a later level for Jorasco without affecting any of the other components. Want to offer Lydandar lightning bolt, but be sure that they've specialized to get that power? Give have the stormlord feat require extra dragonmarked feats. It's easier to produce non-dragonmark related House abilities. Some houses, (i.e. Ghallanda, Sivis, Valadis) just aren't going to have lots of awesome powers. But you can more easily create House-only feats that would be attractive to them and balance them within this kind of system. (This point -may- be BS. Not sure yet.) At will powers are cool and easy to remember. They're flavorful but the system stops there and everything after it is specifically chosen by the player, so people don't wind up with lists of spell like abilities they don't want (or even remember they have). Some cons It's -not- clear what taking the respective Least Mark Feat (AKA the intro feat) will ultimately provide your character. A novice player would have to wade through a lot of pages to try to get a handle on what you can get(This was the advantage of the 3.5 ECS layout. It was all there with a description of your mark). There would have to be a table somewhere laying it out. ??? -- obviously there's other stuff I'm just too close to the action to see it. Somewhat repetitive discussion of balance using the mark of passage Least Dragonmark of Passage in 3.5 gave access to both expeditious retreat and dimension leap (basically the eladrin teleport power). In 4e one is a racial power (every class can get it) and one is a wizard utility power 2 (only one specific class, one that generally doesn't have much movement and defense ability, gets it). Specifically I don't think expeditious retreat has been balanced to allow a non-wizard to get it. I don't think it's broken, and a fighter/rogue/whatever should never get it (obviously they can with multiclassing). But it should probably cost a rogue/defender more to get expeditious retreat than feystep. Obviously this is an example. I could be off. They could really be pretty much equal. But, all these different powers aren't going to sit perfectly together in a few tiers. Tou want a system that allows the writer to balance each spell-like ability specifically. Assuming that expeditious retreat is more powerful then you can easily bump the level requirement to saaay 6th (or 8th or whenever magic items start to provide similar powers or rogues get access to even better movement powers, whatever) without affecting feystep. The "beauty"of an exception based system (if I understand it correctly) is can make simple modular changes to one part without worrying about how it's balanced vs. the rest of your universe. In this case the other 30 odd spells* that the feat gives access to. * Each "Dragonmark rank" granting a around 2-4 spells per house in 3.5. Plus all the "extra" stuff in Dragonmarked. This, incidentally, is why dragonmarks generally sucked. Its impossible to balance "near the curve" with thirty different variables. You've got to haul way back on power to make sure that nothing becomes awesome. And of course, the fact that power utility was so bizarre in 3.5. You'd have 4th level spells (firetrap) that really weren't as useful as 1st level spells (expeditious retreat) and you'd get access to them from the same 1st level feat.
#4 snarky_monkey Jun 03, 2008 0:12:16	Swapping isn't a pure MC function. It is something you are able to do as you level up and more powers are available to you. Making the marks work in a similar way, to me, does not seem unreasonable.
#5 snarky_monkey Jun 03, 2008 0:14:29	SM's suggestion of giving out a feat that gives you "Expeditious Retreat + lots of other stuff" is sick and wrong. I'd be shocked if they make it that awesome (=overpowered). Expedious Retreat in 4e is very low key and only a second level wizard ability so I don't see how this is "sick and wrong". Not to mention it specifically says OR, not both abilities.
#6 Orci Jun 03, 2008 5:56:42	I think Dragonmarks could each grant the use of a special ritual, that can be only used by marked characters and without the need of an ritual book...
#7 ozinoz Jun 03, 2008 6:11:00	I was thinking something along the same lines but perhaps like this. Heroic Tier Feat Least Mark of Passage [Human] Daily Power : Expeditious Retreat or Fey Step Skill : Nature +2 Since there is no equatable "mount" spell that I have heard of, this is as far as I have gotten. Each level of mark would appear at each tier, giving the three marks. Each level of mark would replace the previous one's powers, in a similar way of having the choice to swap out abilities normally. Obviously, Dragonmark powers couldn't be swapped any other way. i like the concept of giving players a dragon mark per tier, but i am not sure it suits the tone of the game. many NPC's have the higher level of the dragon marks but in that system that would require them to be in the paragon or epic level, to me that does not fit in the tone of the lower leveled NPC's. if most dragonmarked houses have a tonne of epic leveled characters, the player characters loose what makes them special in the world my 2 cents worth ;)
#8 Alas Jun 03, 2008 8:14:05	I've been debating how I'm going to approach the Dragonmark issue until official rules come out, and I think I'm not going to try converting the 3.5 marks feature-for-feature. Rather, I'm going to look at existing 4th ed powers and power-spaces and brew something to fit that. For example, I'll keep the idea of least, lesser, greater, and Siberys marks, but I'll break them up across the heroic (least/lesser), paragon (greater), and epic (Siberys) tiers. Each mark will get an associated encounter, utility, and daily power (maybe in that order), a skill bonus, and a ritual or two. I'll make "dragonshard" a new magic item keyword, and figure out some properties to go with it. Hmm... just extemporizing: Mark of Scribing Skill: History (I could see Arcana, too, but Sivis likes its records) Encounter: A rune/symbol that deals psychic damage to a target(s) Utility: A rune that boosts the defenses or permits translation faster than the Comprehend Langauges ritual? Daily: A truename rune that deals psychic damage and a persistent effect Associated Rituals: Comprehend Languages, Secret Page, Sending...
#9 CraggleRock Jun 03, 2008 16:44:38	i like the concept of giving players a dragon mark per tier, but i am not sure it suits the tone of the game. many NPC's have the higher level of the dragon marks but in that system that would require them to be in the paragon or epic level, to me that does not fit in the tone of the lower leveled NPC's. if most dragonmarked houses have a tonne of epic leveled characters, the player characters loose what makes them special in the world my 2 cents worth ;) Except NPCs (usually) are built completely different to PCs, so there's nothing to stop you giving Paragon/Epic level Marks to low level NPCs.
#10 snarky_monkey Jun 03, 2008 20:51:55	Except NPCs (usually) are built completely different to PCs, so there's nothing to stop you giving Paragon/Epic level Marks to low level NPCs. Took the words right out of my mouth. Least that's how I plan to get around it if I go with my proposed model as a basis. At the very least, my logic is Epic Messenger : Yep, I don't need any ritual to teleport to Sharn, just gotta think about it and poof! Adventurer : Awesome accomplishment on your part though I'm kind of busy saving Eberron, so can't talk right now. Hey, while your here could you use that power of yours to deliver a message to my Mom cause I am gonna be late for dinner. Here's some gold. Thanks.
#11 Kensan_Oni Jun 04, 2008 1:11:51	You know, I was going to handle the whole Dragonmarked issue by just making each Dragonmark into a Paragon Path, which only requirement was that you had to be a specific race. ... I realize that it doesn't exactly jive with the way Dragonmarks used to work, but as the only mark in my current game is an Abberant one, and one that became redundant with the 4E warlock, I'm not sure if I want to handle it a different way. Or, alternatively, you have the least mark, and that allows you access to the Paragon Paths later on. Maybe that will work. I still want to tie Paragon Paths with Dragon Marks, though.
#12 grafster Jun 04, 2008 2:37:41	Expedious Retreat in 4e is very low key and only a second level wizard ability so I don't see how this is "sick and wrong". Not to mention it specifically says OR, not both abilities. If you don't see why it's powerful then it's kinda tricky to explain why. Wizards are squishy. They die easy. So they have a power that lets them do something about that. Once a day they can shift TWICE their speed. (which is basically like teleporting). It's a utility power, their one daily utility power at lower levels. They can only ever use it once a day. Would you give someone feystep for a feat? How about a double strength feystep? No? Would you give them double strength feystep + lots of other goodies for a feat? edit: I see you're just giving the skill bonus. Not sure why I missed that. (I mean... if you think this is "balanced" compared with the other feats in the game then I'm not sure what to say to you. It seems like we think about what the word balance means in a radically different way.) When you hand out powers you have to sit down and think about how they work in the game context. (I start with 2nd level class power vs 1st level feat) If the feat that you're offering is so much better than other published feats that someone would be dumb not to take it then -my- inclination would be to say that you should reconsider.
#13 ryaer Jun 04, 2008 3:14:14	After reading through the core books, I'm sure that Dragon marks will be tied to rituals. An extremely large majority of the spells that dragon marks used have been moved over to rituals. Even the fact that dragon marks are tied to skills and rituals are tied to skills works. They wouldn't need a ritual book either since you could just say that the ritual book is the dragon mark, just written in the language of the marks, instinctively understood by those who can use them. And the dragons of course. There are a few that don't work quite as well, like house denith, but I can easily group rituals together to make a dragon marked house. And since the dragon marks gave economic power to the houses in eberron, it would be very easy to just make better rituals that can only be used by those with dragon marks. Maybe get rid of the ritual cost, make the ritual faster to perform, add additional effects to the ritual, or give a bonus on the skill check for the ritual. Any of these would be quick and dirty ways of adding dragon marks before 4e eberron stuff is released. I would keep the marks same as before, matching up skills as best as possible, and give each level mark special ritual abilities, free access to a related ritual of it's house without ritual casting, and maybe a power for the houses that are more combat related. Any power you give them can't be better than what you could get from existing feats anyways. Additional levels of the mark get more rituals, special ritual abilities, and maybe powers, but again don't give those out too much. There also are some spells that just aren't replicated yet. I'm sure they will be out eventually, but until then I would try to create a ritual based on them using the other rituals as a template. The levels of the mark should go with the tiers, least = heroic, leaser = paragon, greater = epic, and siberys being some sort of epic destiny path. At least thats how it seems to me. The ritual system is quite good and very similar to the way dragon marks work in 3.5. It just seems perfect to me.
#14 snarky_monkey Jun 04, 2008 8:49:05	If you don't see why it's powerful then it's kinda tricky to explain why. Wizards are squishy. They die easy. So they have a power that lets them do something about that. Once a day they can shift TWICE their speed. (which is basically like teleporting). It's a utility power, their one daily utility power at lower levels. They can only ever use it once a day. Would you give someone feystep for a feat? How about a double strength feystep? No? Would you give them double strength feystep + lots of other goodies for a feat? edit: I see you're just giving the skill bonus. Not sure why I missed that. (I mean... if you think this is "balanced" compared with the other feats in the game then I'm not sure what to say to you. It seems like we think about what the word balance means in a radically different way.) When you hand out powers you have to sit down and think about how they work in the game context. (I start with 2nd level class power vs 1st level feat) If the feat that you're offering is so much better than other published feats that someone would be dumb not to take it then -my- inclination would be to say that you should reconsider. I can certainly see your point, but on the other hand a wizard can take dimension door, least from some things I have read, as a power also. Add to this that Fey Step and the infernal equivalent are given as racial abilities. So perhaps, in the realm where an Eladrin (I believe that's who has fey step) takes the wizard class and then also takes the dimension door power, they now have functionally three uses of a minor teleport, two of which being 10 squares and only daily. Course the Expeditious Retreat is hampered by terrain and objects that get in the wizard's way, so in some situations perhaps you may only get 5 functional squares out of the ability. That said, allowing the wizzie to move out of the way of danger more often, without risking getting hurt, sounds like an acceptable plus since as you pointed out they are SO squishy, that they almost need another little hand up, least to survive longer. Add to this that if a wizard has the dragon mark, they would not likely waste a power slot on dimension door since it would be redundant, unless they were going for that kind of focus, in which case they must sacrifice by the lack diversity. In the case of the non wizard/no "fey step like" ability to begin with, it's actually a balancing tool. All that leads me to believe that, at the very least, it's not as overpowering an ability as you may believe it is. Also, when we balance Dragonmarks I believe they shouldn't be compared to other current feats, but instead powers since that is what they are, or atleast were.
#15 snarky_monkey Jun 04, 2008 8:54:20	The ritual system is quite good and very similar to the way dragon marks work in 3.5. It just seems perfect to me. I very much agree with this, and personally think that if it's based on rituals then benefit of the dragonmark should be the ability to do said ritual without material cost and as a standard action daily power. This may seem overbalanced to many, but also helps with the logic of how Houses used them to their advantage.
#16 CraggleRock Jun 04, 2008 16:54:31	I'm considering ruling Marks as having access to an appropriate ritual scroll once per day, meaning that Marked can produce the same effect in half the time of the majority of people, which should have given them enough of an edge economically.
#17 ozinoz Jun 04, 2008 20:26:24	Except NPCs (usually) are built completely different to PCs, so there's nothing to stop you giving Paragon/Epic level Marks to low level NPCs. that is so true and i feel kinda dull for not taking that into account,
#18 Save-vs-DM Jun 05, 2008 7:13:12	I've got a dragonmark system brewing so far but it needs a lot of tweaking. Hopefully I'll be able to post something fairly soon, along with some other "quick fix" 4e Eberron stuff.
#19 skrap-san Jun 05, 2008 17:29:44	along with some other "quick fix" 4e Eberron stuff. That would be most welcome.
#20 lord_tirian Jun 05, 2008 18:04:43	I think a good idea would be basing it on the "Channel Divinity" feats, but with the first feat giving you the basic ability. Something like that: DRAGONMARKED [DRAGONMARK] Prerequisite: Dragonmarked race Benefit: You have a dragonmark, gain the power "channel dragonmark: prowess of the mark" and can use once per encounter one channel dragonmark power. Channel Dragonmark: Prowess of the Mark Feat Power With a soft glow, your dragonmark becomes warm and you intuitively know what you have to do. Encounter Minor Action Personal Effect: Until the end of your next turn, you get a +2 power bonus to the associated skill. Further feats would then add new "Channel Dragonmark" abilities. Cheers, LT.
#21 snarky_monkey Jun 06, 2008 10:09:31	I think a good idea would be basing it on the "Channel Divinity" feats, but with the first feat giving you the basic ability. I like this idea, channeling a Dragonmark seems very inline with the concept of them from the beginning, least in my opinion. I'll be giving this a lot of thought, thanks Lord_Tirian.
#22 Alas Jun 06, 2008 11:03:39	Another random thought, but I'm probably going to consult the ECS price list for Dragonmarked services when drafting the component cost for House-related rituals. Some services will probably have a smaller profit margin than others-- I imagine a Sivis notary doesn't earn much per arcane mark, but makes up for it in volume.
#23 lord_tirian Jun 06, 2008 18:07:21	I mulled a bit about that and start to think that Dragonmark feats should carry another bonus: Price discount on certain rituals. This would make the economic force of the houses pretty logical. Cheers, LT.
#24 Save-vs-DM Jun 08, 2008 1:07:26	I mulled a bit about that and start to think that Dragonmark feats should carry another bonus: Price discount on certain rituals. This would make the economic force of the houses pretty logical. Cheers, LT. Actually, what I'm doing is stating that when you pick up a mark you can master one ritual for that mark and perform it at no cost. That would be how the houses amassed such great wealth; no overhead.
#25 CraggleRock Jun 08, 2008 6:10:12	Actually, what I'm doing is stating that when you pick up a mark you can master one ritual for that mark and perform it at no cost. That would be how the houses amassed such great wealth; no overhead. If you were to do that, I'd probably restrict it to something like a Daily power to eschew the ritual costs, else it would get too powerful I think. You'd especially need to rethink that if you gave teh Mark of Making the Enchant Magic Item ritual as well, or you are really making an imbalance! :D
#26 reylan_talonspyre Jun 10, 2008 1:29:07	OK, this is what I have been working on thus far. It is far from complete but it should give you an idea of what I am thinking. Using the Spell Compendium, Dragonmarked and the Eberron Campaign Setting books, I have come up with some new 4.0 dragonmarks using the idea presented here that calls for rituals to be used in place of powers. Here is a tidbit of what I have completed. Let me preface all this by saying that using the old 3.5 spells as dragonmark rituals that can be cast with no component costs, within standard/move/minor actions as well as 1 minute+ time frames, and using character level and skill checks that are given bonuses from the Least Dragonmark feat is absolutely perfect from what I can see. These old spells are just that ... old material. 3.5 could never really incorporate the old 2.5 material, but Spell Compendium is just chalked full of power spells that fit perfectly as special powers that really do make dragonmarks more powerful and a blessing in the game. Here is one of the least played dragonmarks in the game. This is how I am handling it. Comments are welcome. Enjoy. Dragonmarks The dragonmark feats give you access to abilities far beyond those of mortal men. In the 4E Eberron system, a dragonmark operates much like a ritual, except that it does not cost gold pieces or components to use, the use of certain dragonshards during the ritual as a focus will increase the effect of ritual, and the abilities of the rituals are not level dependent (i.e. You do not need to be any certain level to cast or learn the ritual, you must only have the proper feat). Also, these rituals are always considered memorized and part of your catalog of rituals available to you. All dragonmark rituals are usable once per day unless noted otherwise. As you take the other dragonmark feats you will gain more uses of the least and lesser marks. Greater marks are usually 24 hour duration rituals and do not need to be replenished. You will choose one of the rituals listed for each least, lesser, and greater dragonmark feat you take. You will not be able to choose again, the choice is permanent (even with retraining). Mark of Detection The Mark of Detection has the following restrictions and benefits. Allowed Races: Half-Elf House Name: Medani Guilds: Warning Guild [b]Least Mark:[b] You gain a +2 bonus on Perception checks and you gain the use of the dragonmark ritual zone of truth or detect dragonmark. ------------------- Zone of Truth (Dragonmark Ritual) Category: Divination Time: Standard action Key Skill: Perception Duration: 5 minutes Make a Perception check. Use the result as a bonus to your Insight checks to discern any untruths spoken in your presence during the duration. ------------------- Detect Dragonmark (Dragonmark Ritual) Category: Divination Time: Standard action Key Skill: Perception Duration: 3 rounds Make a Perception check. Use the result to determine on the chart below how far out you can detect any dragonmarks. Depending on how long you concentrate (up to 3 rounds), you learn more information about one dragonmarked creature in the area. Perception Check (Range) 19 or lower (10 squares) 20 to 39 (20 squares) 40 or higher (40 squares) 1st Round: Presence or absence of dragonmarks. 2nd Round: The number of dragonmarks on creatures or objects in the area, and the type (aberrant, least, lesser, greater or Siberys) of the most potent dragonmark. 3rd Round: The location and type of each dragonmark. If the objects or creatures bearing the dragonmarks are in line of sight, you can attempt Arcana check (DC 20 + 1/2 the dragonmarked creature or object’s level) to determine the name of the dragonmark ritual granted by the mark. If you beat the DC by 5 or more you also learn whether the mark has been expended for the day. ------------------- So, that is just the least mark, I incorporated more powerful versions of the rituals in the Player's Handbook as well. Since the dragonmarked are supposed to be better at these things (from Keith Baker's books and whatnot) I would suppose that their dragonmarked powers are most likely stronger but limited in use. I especially like using old 3.5 spells like bloodhound and circle dance for the dragonmark rituals I added to the Mark of Finding. The 3.5 Dragonmarked book gave me all these ideas. House Cannith though still scares me a bit. But we will see. The conversion of the Exceptional Artisan (and so on) feats were easily done with the residuum and the costs and times involved in making magic items. So it was pretty straight forward. I have tons of new feats too, but retasking them (like the Undead Empathy feat) was easier than I expected. I just made a prerequisite be region of origin Karrnath or member of the Blood of Vol religion. Easy as pie. Thoughts
#27 grug_the_just Jun 11, 2008 14:24:00	I'm kind of under the impression that the dragonmark system is going to be built from the ground up. As such, I'm going to be spending some time on my own figuring this one out up until I have to run my game again. I'll show any decent progress I get.
#28 snarky_monkey Jun 11, 2008 20:39:06	I personally still believe that dragonmarks should be run as power feats, not rituals. It's more in tune with the flavor of what we had before and works with the current system as well. Balance wise, just make it so bearer can chose what ever the dragonmark power feat is instead of their normal power choice for that level. If you want to add, say, dragonmark rituals which either are restricted to those with the right mark or having the mark reduces time or components, then that is fine as well. But to say something like, well this mark lets you do this ritual with no components and that's it, it seems pretty nerfed to me and not balanced at all.
#29 Magicstar1 Jun 12, 2008 3:06:17	I'm working on my own system at the moment. Looking if I can get some reasonable results before I post but the current mechanic is as follows: Least Mark of <>: Gives a reasonable nice power for the lower levels on par with the lvl1 daily/lvl2 utility, usable daily. Lesser Mark of <> Transforms your least mark into an encounter power and gives a new power as a daily. Greater Mark of <> Transforms your least mark to an at-will and your lesser mark to encounter power and gives a new power as daily. Syberys Mark of <> Daily power with a big effect. The obvious scaling factor here should be covered by the level you can take the feats on. The problem is the relative low level you want to maintain, however you needed to be 9th level (equivalent to 4th =13th) to get a greater mark. The only exception was the dragonmark Heir prc and there I will probably design a Paragon path for. Is this a totally wacky approach or am I on the right track?
#30 pumpkingnome Jun 12, 2008 18:41:22	@Magicstar: This is the only way I can envision the Dragonmarks being utilized in Eberron 4e. To me, that is one of the truly shining benefits of the powers based system is the ease with which it an be applied to Dragonmarks, being a hyper-critical thematic element. The sheer magnitude of ancillary effects that can be applied if, say, a Mark Bearer class were to be created. An obvious prereq to this would be holding a mark, and later, a specific tier of mark. Otherwise, I would greatly miss the capabilities as presented in Dragonmarked for 3.5.
#31 matbas Jun 12, 2008 19:41:01	@Magicstar I'm not sure if I'm going to use the style of approach you've described or the ritual approach, I think both have promise and I think the 4E system in general will adapt to Dragonmarks readily. However, I'd drop the power level of your proposal, for LEast Mark, give the equivalent of an At-Will or Level 1 Encounter as a Daily and progress from there. Getting another Daily Power for just a feat is too strong. thanks, matt
#32 nundahl Jun 12, 2008 21:34:17	Hey gang, I thought I'd join in the discussion. I've been largely quiet for some time now. This needs work, but I came up with a progression I think I'm going to use in my game that isn't far off from what I've read up above me. Essentially, the Least Dragonmark Feat will grant a character (of the appropriate race/house/etc.) a Daily use power, as well as a +2 bonus to an associated skill. Following that, you will require skill training to take the Lesser Dragonmark, and Skill Focus to claim the Greater Dragonmark. This fits the theme of skill-based enhancement from 3.5, albeit a little off, since that was present in 3.5 to make sure characters were of appropriate level for the abilities. My thoughts on the matter are that you must work in the associated skill, to unlock your natural/magical potential. I've done a mock-up of House Medani as a quick example, it may need some tweaking as this is my first go at it, but I think this works. Medani Third-Eye Dragonmark Half-Elven eyes are keen, but none so sharp as the narrowed eyes of a Medani, activating his Third-Eye. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Least Standard Action Personal Effect: You gain a +10 bonus to your next Perception check; in addition your Perception check may be used to Detect Magic as if you had used the Arcana Skill, even if you otherwise cannot use that skill. Special: You must be a Half-Elf and a blood relative of House Medani to use this power. Medani Combat Divination Dragonmark In less than a heartbeat you receive infinite visions of possible futures, using this newfound knowledge you are better prepared to deal with the threat at hand. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Lesser Minor Action Personal Effect: You gain a bonus equal to half your level on Attacks and all Defenses (to a maximum of +5) until the end of your next turn. Special: You must be a Half-Elf and a blood relative of House Medani to use this power. Medani Mind-Sight Dragonmark Closing your eyes, the real world all around us makes itself known to you, you feel a connection to all things, and you see the world as others can only imagine. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Greater Move Action Personal Effect: You are aware of all creatures in your vicinity, including those that may be invisible or otherwise hidden. You do not grant these creatures combat advantage for stealth or flanking as you have all around sight; additionally, creatures cannot claim concealment against you and you are considered to have the Blind-Fighting feat. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter. Special: You must be a Half-Elf and a blood relative of House Medani to use this power. Feel free to offer up your thoughts, love it, hate it, made you vomit, whatever. *Edit* I threw a cap on the Combat Divination ability, because it seemed a little ridiculous to think one might have a +15 at level 30, I don't know how Epic plays out in 4e and I never ran it in 3.5, but I felt like that might be a bit much. Threw +5 max on the bonus to Attack/Defenses.
#33 Magicstar1 Jun 13, 2008 2:17:26	I specifically choose the power route because I envision rituals the bread and butter of the new magewright. Up until now no NPC classes were created however the magewright can't be taken out of Eberron. The second thing is rituals are there for utility, they don't have an immediate combat related effect. With the new aim of making sure you always contribute to combat, rituals isn't the way to go, in my opinion. I do envision some Dragonmark powers to help with rituals. Medani's lesser mark could give a ritual bonus on the Arcana roll when using a scrying ritual. This would make Dragonmarks still a viable economic benefit and keep the power of the feat ok I think. @matbas: The Channel Divinity feats in the PHB give an additional encounter power most of the time. I do see your objection but still think that balance can be taken into account, I just really like the easy progressing of the DM from daily-->encounter-->at-will.
#34 nundahl Jun 13, 2008 15:54:36	Here's another two more down, House Tharashk and House Vadalis. Tharashk Scent Dragonmark Breathing deep you can almost taste your quarry in the air, whether it be that you search for a silver vein a mile beneath your feet, or a special marked coin you slipped into your prey’s pocket when last you met, you know exactly where the target is. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Least Standard Action Personal Effect: You designate an item or material type and instantly you know what in what direction it may be found. You can search for general items, in which case you find the nearest one of its kind if more than one is in range. Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object the power fails. You know the location of item or material for the remainder of the day until you begin an extended rest. Special: You must be a Half-Orc and a blood relative of House Tharashk to use this power. Tharashk Bloodhound Dragonmark To a Tharashk bounty hunter no prey will go unfound. With supernatural ability, you find all evidence your target has left behind. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Lesser Standard Action Close Blast 5 Effect: You designate a target and then scan the area in front of you, if the target has passed through the area of this effect, you may find clues left on the ground in the form of footprints, spilled blood, or any other possible evidence. This information can be used to determine the target’s heading when leaving the area, and with a DC 15 Insight check, what actions the target performed in the Power area. Special: You must be a Half-Orc and a blood relative of House Tharashk To use this power. Tharashk Pathfinding Dragonmark Your mark flashes silently and you become driven, magically led to your goal you are given immediate knowledge to find the location you have specified. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Greater Standard Action Personal Effect: A glowing path visible only to you appears on natural earth in front of you, this path leads you to a location you specify and that you can clearly visualize. This effect lasts until you have reached your destination, cancelled the power willingly, or have overwritten it with another use choosing a different location. If unnatural structures or ground are encountered the power will attempt to circumvent these obstructions, if it cannot the power fails. You do not need to have visited the location you specify, but you must have an accurate mental image, this can be from memory, an image, or strong description as determined by the DM. Special: You must be a Half-Orc and a blood relative of House Tharashk To use this power. Vadalis Beast Song Dragonmark The mark on your flesh glows solid white, and its hum can be felt by all who stand near, but none so affected as the beasts, who cease their snarls and lay down, pacified and at ease by the subsonic tones. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Least Standard Action Close Blast 5 Attack: Nature Skill + Cha vs. Will Hit: All creatures with the Natural Beast type immediately become friendly to you for the duration of the encounter. What they do in this time is at the DM’s discretion, however these creatures will usually lose interest and simply walk away. Any attacks from you or allies against these creatures ends this effect. Special: You must be a Human and a blood relative of House Vadalis to use this power. Vadalis Silverfang Dragonmark Your animal friend grows stronger and fiercer; its lips curl to reveal a maw of vicious teeth tough as steel with a magical gleam. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Lesser Minor Action Close Blast 5 Effect: You specify one target of the Natural Beast type to gain +2 to Attack, Damage, and to all Defenses until the end of the encounter. Special: You must be a Human and a blood relative of House Vadalis to use this power. Vadalis Magebreeding Dragonmark As your hand brushes down the beast your mark illuminates, a swirl of color flows through you into the creature, and it looks up at you with newfound power and intelligence. Daily ✦ Dragonmark, Greater Minor Action Melee Touch Effect: You touch one target of the Natural Beast type, this creature gains the Magebred template as if born through magical breeding. This creature will retain this template until you use this ability again, designating another target, or until your character dies. Special: You must be a Human and a blood relative of House Vadalis to use this power. Vadalis posed an interesting problem, due to the lack of animal companionship or familiars. That said, I feel like animal friends are a key part of Eberron, and I will be including them with further houseruling - likely not companions, but DM controlled npc's tacked into the party that just happen to be Beasts. Especially if someone is playing a Nature themed Wizard to make a Druid, or a Vadalis ... anything. The "Magebred" template I've referred to is little more than the Feyborn template from the DMG, but I don't want to post that as I'm not sure its exactly legal yet. I modified the fey step ability to be a minor action for increased speed ... doesn't spare them the OA, but it seems to capture the feel of the superior speed Magebred animals are supposed to possess. Half-Orcs of Tharashk in my world will be portrayed by Orcs using the MM rules, its close enough. **EDIT** Removed Magical Beast and replaced with Natural Beast - Magical Beast is too encompassing and contains many creatures not appropriate for Vadalis, which is a shame, because I'd love to see a Vadalis Magebred Chimera.
#35 GlimmTheGnome Jun 13, 2008 21:11:06	Like some others have suggested, I think that the dragonmarks will work best with the ritual system. Fluff-wise, the dragonmarked houses aren't focused on combat but instead on economics, and most of the dragonmark powers weren't combat powers anyways. A dragonmark could allow the use of a ritual without the Ritual Caster feat and provide a discount on the material cost (to explain the economics of the Dragonmarked Houses). I think a freebie ritual (no component cost) is too big of a boon, but a reduction in cost seems reasonable. Other benefits would need to be added to help make sense of taking a feat per ritual rather than one feat to be able to use any ritual. Least Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human Benefit: You gain training in the Arcana skill if you are not already trained in it. You gain mastery over the Make Whole ritual and are able to perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. You may perform the ritual with a 20% reduction in the component cost. Lesser Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human, Least Mark of Making, level 4 or higher Benefit: You gain mastery over the Enchant Magic Item ritual and may perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. You may perform the ritual with a 10% reduction in the component cost. In addition, you gain a +2 racial bonus on Arcana checks. Greater Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human, Lesser Mark of Making, level 6 or higher Benefit: You gain mastery over the Disenchant Magic Item ritual and may perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. You may perform the ritual with a component cost of 20 gp rather than 25 gp. In addition, you gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks with others who are aware of your dragonmark.
#36 arkady_v Jun 14, 2008 17:11:40	I also like the idea of them being ritual based... but, I also see the allure of there being some sort of combat bonus. I think what I'd like to see come out in 4E Eberron is a combination. Each House Dragonmark would: - Provide a bonus to one skill - Provide a benefit to using a specific ritual or series of rituals - Provide a power or series of powers, something like a Level 1 power for the Least Dragonmark, a Level 7 power for a Lesser Dragonmark, a Level 13 power for a Greater Dragonmark, and a Level 20 power for a Siberys Dragonmark. I see them working kind of like multiclassing. You don't get an extra power, the Dragonmark power just replaces one of your regular powers. I know, that doesn't totally jive with the power progression I did above, but that's what I'd like to see.
#37 snarky_monkey Jun 14, 2008 21:49:55	It occurred to me that there may be a misconception of the level of benefit or influence one might gain with a mark that can do nothing more than reduce costs to a certain ritual. On the surface, this would seem like something that would garnish the bearer greater respect, prestige, and wealth. Fact is the benefit of a mark like this, from a business standpoint, is more in line with a new assembly process for a mass produced item, instead of it being a revolutionary product that could capture the market. For this reason, those who already provide the services that are being reduced would either hire or force indenture the ones with marks to reduce their costs. In a more extreme example, what's to stop the current provider from removing the threat to their wealth completely from the picture? Look at the concept of the hybrid vehicle. The first hybrid was made in 1898 but here we are in 2008, a 100 years later, and it's just becoming more common. The end reason for this was the power of the oil barons and how they basically prevented the production of the vehicle either by purchasing the design or sometimes less legal methods. In a feudal society this would be even more likely, and with only the ability to lessen costs and not do something truly effective on their own, becoming trapped in this situation would be a common occurrence. All in all, it would be very easy for those said individuals, at best, to become more of a working class than a ruling one. Least that's my take on it.
#38 matthra Jun 22, 2008 18:05:26	A friend and I were talking about how the dragon marks are going to work in 4th edition. He suggested rituals, I thought about it and it didn't seem crunchy enough. I mean spend a feat to gain access to a handful of rituals and a +2 to a house skill seems kind of lame compared to getting ritual caster or skill focus. Feat bonuses don't stack, so it's not as effective as either ability and this isn't 3.5 where being short on feats sometimes made combo feats worthwhile. The other point of disagreement was what effect they would have on combat, he was of the mind that marks would be for lack of a better term "flair", IE: provide the player with RP abilities, and little to no combat benefit. Given the fact that almost all of the rules/feats we've seen in 4th ed are meant to be used in combat I would see rp oriented feats as anomalous. The question then becomes, how to make a feat that has an effect on combat, but is still in line with the much weaker feats in 4th edition. My personal guess on how it will work is similar to how multi-classing works. You'll have a base level heroic feat, that gives you the dragon mark, access to all house specific rituals, and a plus to the skill of the house. Then you'll have feats that allow you to trade a class power you have for a house specific power. Each house will have a list of encounter, daily, and utility powers that are designed for various level of play, and require a tier specific Dragon mark feat to access. Least and lesser for heroic dragon mark powers, greater for paragon, and Siberys for the epic Dragon Mark powers. For example, Jorasco's touch would be a heroic level utility power, that twice a day as a standard action allows you to touch a target and let them spend a healing surge. Or a mark of shadow encounter power that as a minor action gives you combat advantage on your next attack. What do you guys think?
#39 Magicstar1 Jun 23, 2008 19:33:22	The problem with Tier specific feats is that it messes with the low-level concept of Eberron NPC's. The top healers of House Jorasco are about 9th (3.5, so 14 4th equivalent) they can't take Epic Tier feats. This can be fudged because NPC 's work differently but still. I like the idea of certain level Tier powers, daily, utility etc.
#40 mystictheurge Jun 23, 2008 19:49:08	The problem with Tier specific feats is that it messes with the low-level concept of Eberron NPC's. Except in 4E, NPCs aren't just players that the DM runs. They have completely different rules.
#41 eldritch_lord Jun 23, 2008 20:10:07	Fluff-wise, the dragonmarked houses aren't focused on combat but instead on economics, and most of the dragonmark powers weren't combat powers anyways. A dragonmark could allow the use of a ritual without the Ritual Caster feat and provide a discount on the material cost (to explain the economics of the Dragonmarked Houses). I think a freebie ritual (no component cost) is too big of a boon, but a reduction in cost seems reasonable. Other benefits would need to be added to help make sense of taking a feat per ritual rather than one feat to be able to use any ritual. So, we want: --something that's not combat-focused, but things useful only out of combat aren't as appealing; --something that will explain why the Dragonmarked Houses are the way they are; and --something less amazing than a cost-free ritual. Hmm....How about instead of reducing the cost, you reduce the time? It still takes as much gold/residuum/whatever to cast it, but only 2-3 rounds to cast it. That's (A) something that no one else can do, (B) something very valuable, and (C) not something that will economically benefit the PCs too much. Also, since the whole idea behind rituals is that no one can memorize something that long, you can justify it by saying that the dragonmark is basically a scroll/tome of the ritual in mark form with a few extra bits that facilitate casting. The Mark of Making, with this system, would thus be the following (pardon the copy-and-paste-and-modify job): Least Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human Benefit: You gain training in the Arcana skill if you are not already trained in it. You gain mastery over the make whole ritual and are able to perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. When you cast make whole, its casting time is reduced to 1 minute. Lesser Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human, Least Mark of Making, level 4 or higher Benefit: You gain mastery over the enchant magic item ritual and may perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. In addition, you gain a +2 racial bonus to Arcana checks and a +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy checks against any creature who recognizes the significance of your dragonmark. Greater Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human, Lesser Mark of Making, level 6 or higher Benefit: You gain mastery over the disenchant magic item ritual and may perform it even if you do not have the Ritual Caster feat. In addition, the casting time of your make whole ritual is reduced to 1 round and the casting times of your enchant magic item and disenchant magic item rituals are reduced to 6 minutes. Syberis Mark of Making (Dragonmark, Human) Prerequisite: Human, Greater Mark of Making, level 10 or higher Benefit: You no longer need to have any components or residuum on you to use your make whole, enchant magic item, or disenchant magic item rituals; as long as the components or residuum you use belong to you, are stored with your House, and are on the same plane, they are used up regardless of the distance they are apart from you. The least one gives you make whole at 10% the normal casting time. The lesser one gives you enchant magic item, and Glimm's skill bonuses. The greater one reduces the make whole time to 1% normal, and reduces the enchant magic item and disenchant magic item times to 10% normal. The Syberis one lets you cast the rituals using components stored with your House, so it still costs you the same but it appears to others that you can effectively cast them as an innate ability. How's that?
#42 perrywrogers Jun 23, 2008 20:49:38	Just thinking along the lines of keeping the dragonmark feats/powers/whatever in balance with the rest of what's going on in the game. . . . Trained in the associated skill AND mastery over the associated ritual AND reduced casting cost/time seems like too much. A normal person only gets trained in a skill for spending a feat. Perhaps the dragonmark only brings a +2 toward casting the associated ritual rather than the skill training. This +2 could stack with skill training, and thus net a dragonmarked caster a +7 on top of her ability score and level bonuses. As far as time or cost goes, a good argument could be made for the in-world economic viability of either. As far as game balance is concerned, I think I prefer the reduced time just to keep players from taking up a distracting business sideline. Cheers!
#43 nymrohd Jun 24, 2008 9:38:16	I always thought that the Least, Lesser, Greater divisions were largely cosmetic. What I would like to see is a single feat that gives you a free trained skill from among a few according to the house you choose plus the ability to choose from House powers whenever you gain a new class power. After that each House could have it's own short power list, with powers for all levels. Some of those powers (but not necessarily all) would have the dragonmark keyword and if your character chose one of those he would develop a dragonmark. The size of a character's dragonmark would be determined by the highest level dragonmark power he has picked. This means you could have encounter, daily and utility powers of each level both house specific, and dragonmark specific. Something like a secondary multiclassing system running on parallel.
#44 herogoeth Jun 24, 2008 12:14:18	Thus far, I’ve been on the flair and fluff side of things by and large, but let’s take a look at a crunchy view of Dragonmarks. Remember, these ideas are purposefully drifting away from the role-play utility of dragonmarks and moving towards crunch. In addition, the ideas that I’m scratching out are no more than 10 or 15 minutes of cognitive brainstorming, so I imagine that their balance will be flawed, but the question is, what are your recommendations for improving upon them? Taking Matthra’s idea and expanding upon it, I’m going to write a draft of Dragonmarks featuring rules similar to multi-classing. Now when I say crunch, I don’t mean overpowering abilities, I mean combat encounter-based rules powers vs. role-play powers. I’m starting with a line of feats similar to the multi-class feats. Instead of Student of The Sword. I’m naming these the Heir of…. The two Dragonmarks I’m going to showcase are Deneith and Lyrandar. Least Heir of Sentinel The Heir of Sentinel grants the following benefits. Access to the Hand of Deneith Dragonmark Ritual. The ability to trade one class power from one Least Mark of Sentinel powers list. Least Heir of Storm The Heir of Storm feat grants the following benefits. Access to the Wind’s Favor Dragonmark Ritual. The ability to trade one class power to one from the Least Mark of Storm powers list. Lesser Dragonmarked Heir The Lesser Dragonmarked Heir feat would allow you to trade one class power from the appropriate Lesser Dragonmark Powers list. In addition, it might make all of the Least Dragonmark powers for your appropriate mark available as class powers, allowing a character to trade for more than one. Maybe. Greater Dragonmarked Heir The Greater Dragonmarked Heir feat would allow you to trade one class power from the appropriate Greater Dragonmark Powers list. In addition, it might make all of the Lesser Dragonmark powers for your appropriate mark available as class powers, allowing a character to trade for more than one. Maybe. Using this model, The ECS would have a single page dedicated to each Dragonmark. This page would detail the Dragonmark Ritual, as well as detail the available powers broken into their three teirs. I.E. For Deneith, the least powers might include abilities like the paladin’s shielding smite, or the warlord’s wolf pack tactics. Perhaps they would have an ability like the Wizard’s shield, usable on an adjacent ally. For Lyrandar, something like the wizard’s wall of fog would be appropriate, or perhaps a utility power like expeditious retreat, caused by a surge of wind at your back. The precise details of the powers aren’t what I want to focus on. What I’m interested in is the system. Is the system balanced? When should these feats be available? What pre-reqs should they have? This is where the flair is. Dragonmark Rituals are minor, free rituals that can only be performed by a marked member of a dragonmarked house. They take ten minutes to ‘cast’, and they are much of the basis for the economic power of the dragonmarked houses. Hand of Deneith – A Dragonmarked member of House Deneith can magically ward a single living creature. As long as that creature remains living and on the same plane, the dragonmarked character knows the general direction towards the creature, and knows if that creature is bloodied or not. A dragonmarked character only have one active ‘Hand of Deneith’ at any given time. Wind’s Favor – A Dragonmarked member of House Lyrandar can magically will forth favorable winds in a 20 square Close Burst, whether calming a series of forceful gusts, or filling sails for a seaward journey. This effect remains in play for as long as the character continues to spend a minor action maintaining it. Thoughts?
#45 perrywrogers Jun 25, 2008 13:23:46	Herogoeth, I like that idea. Maybe, just maybe, we're starting to get somewhere.
#46 Magicstar1 Jun 26, 2008 1:39:37	Wow, yet another new direction and the first I prefer above my own. :D You get both the fluff and the crunch this way without debalancing with extra powers or useless feats. Hope you will do more and think of some powers.
#47 snarky_monkey Jun 26, 2008 2:25:13	Definitely a great direction, and one I approve of as well. My thoughts were traveling a similar path, especially since I believe using multi-classing as the template for these types of changes to 4e seems like the most intrinsically balanced technique that could be applied.
#48 mhacdebhandia Jul 03, 2008 17:08:13	The July previews mention that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide will actually include two classes: the swordmage, which we all knew about, and a multiclass-only class for characters bearing spellscars. I'd say that's a really strong hint that we'll see a multiclass-only "dragonmark heir" class in the Eberron Player's Guide.
#49 nymrohd Jul 03, 2008 18:47:35	I always thought that the Least, Lesser, Greater divisions were largely cosmetic. What I would like to see is a single feat that gives you a free trained skill from among a few according to the house you choose plus the ability to choose from House powers whenever you gain a new class power. After that each House could have it's own short power list, with powers for all levels. Some of those powers (but not necessarily all) would have the dragonmark keyword and if your character chose one of those he would develop a dragonmark. The size of a character's dragonmark would be determined by the highest level dragonmark power he has picked. This means you could have encounter, daily and utility powers of each level both house specific, and dragonmark specific. Something like a secondary multiclassing system running on parallel. See? I was right it seems
#50 nerdicus Jul 03, 2008 19:37:06	Great work and ideas here!! I will be scooping this stuff should any of my characters go the dragonmark route in the next (first 4th) adventure.
#51 nerdicus Jul 03, 2008 19:50:53	I just had an thought that I figured should go here. In 3.5 the dragonmarks went to each of the core races, as seemed fitting as they are the default races that are played in the game and they should be showcased. Word. We all get that. Now the core races are different....we lost gnomes and halforcs. Did we loose more...? I don't know right now and I'm far too lazy to look. The point is, not only did we loose some we gained some. Will this be reflected in who gets dragonmarks in 4th edition? Personally I doubt it, but you never know. Personally I'd also say that I think I would be happy either way. What do you think about this? What if one of your players wanted to play a Dragonborn with an aberrant dragonmark and argues that he should be able to because it is a core race and so should should be allowed?
#52 igotsmeakabob Jul 03, 2008 20:02:30	Will this be reflected in who gets dragonmarks in 4th edition? I have to say, I really, really hope not. It sounds alot like compromising the integrity of the setting to sell more books, which is something that I believe Wizards is capable of... still... I really, really hope not. Considering that they have not moved the timeline ahead with the new edition as they did in FR, I doubt it. Still. I really, really hope not.
#53 evilnerf Jul 04, 2008 0:51:13	I doubt the current dragonmarks are just gonna shrivel up and become useless, but it's possible that the new races will start getting some of their own. It could be possible that the Dragonborn have had theirs for a while now and just been keeping it to themselves in Argonessen or wherever they've been hiding.
#54 GlimmTheGnome Jul 04, 2008 2:03:19	The July previews mention that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide will actually include two classes: the swordmage, which we all knew about, and a multiclass-only class for characters bearing spellscars. I'd say that's a really strong hint that we'll see a multiclass-only "dragonmark heir" class in the Eberron Player's Guide. That's exactly what I was thinking after reading the preview.
#55 capfalcon Jul 24, 2008 12:58:43	While the ideas that were here are pretty good, I was thinking about maybe having each mark have a list of rituals, and getting "free" gold per day, based on your level. For example, A member of House Medani would have the Eye of Alarm, Wizard's Sight and the Detect Secret Doors rituals. Eye of Alarm and Detect Secret Doors cost 25g, while Wizard's Sight costs 270G. So, let's say you get 50 "gold" per level. At level 10, you would get 500 gold per day. So you could cast Wizard's Sight once, and manage a good number of Eye's of Alarm and Detect Secret Doors. Anyway, while the numbers seem off, I like the idea. I always got the feel that there was only so much magic in the mark, and, when you used it, you had to let it regain its strength, so to speak. Of course, one shouldn't add either Brew potion or Enchant Magic Item to Cannith's list, for rather clear reasons. Cannith's mark could give you access to them though...
#56 snarky_monkey Jul 25, 2008 1:14:31	Though I can understand your thought, I just can't agree with it. The idea of giving free rituals as the benefit of a mark just doesn't have anything like the original feel of dragonmarks. Without that feel, they might as well shrivel up, as others are fearing, and I'll just direct convert the 3.5 to 4e versions and be done with it. That being said, we should pay close attention to spell scars in forgotten realms, since I am sure they will be a portent of things to come. If they aren't what we could envision as dragon marks in mechanics, if not fluff, then we need to raise a fuss and hope Keith or WotC is listening.
#57 capfalcon Jul 25, 2008 10:21:11	Though I can understand your thought, I just can't agree with it. The idea of giving free rituals as the benefit of a mark just doesn't have anything like the original feel of dragonmarks. Without that feel, they might as well shrivel up, as others are fearing, and I'll just direct convert the 3.5 to 4e versions and be done with it. Really? Because they feel pretty similar to me. It gives increased skill in the area of expertise by not even having to have a ritual book, and it lets you use the ability for free, though you have to expend some of your dragonmark's magic to do so. Just because the mechanic changed, doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. Heck, even the idea of the Mark of Making giving you the knowledge of Brew Potion and Enchant Magic Item is pretty flavorful. They just know how things go together. So, if you could clarify how this doesn't feel anything like the original, I'd be appreciative. That said, this thread has lots of ideas I like.
#58 snarky_monkey Jul 25, 2008 12:35:56	The original feel to me was more along the lines of how they are doing powers now in 4e. You got an ability you could use once or more per day that mimicked spell effects. Having it now be a free ritual does not make it functional since rituals are too long to ever be used in a combat situation. Dragonmarks, at least in my campaigns, usually reared there heads during those dire combat moments. Especially those of the Mark of Passage vein.
#59 capfalcon Jul 25, 2008 18:28:39	Huh. I see your point, and the powers are a good idea, too. But, having something like Comp. Language or Sending as a power is kinda strange was my line of thought. Anyway, I suppose that since I was already having the rituals for psudo-free, you could make them a standard action or something. Actually, I think it works better if you give them the ability to do them as a standard action rather than normal ritual time. I guess the thing is that some marks lend themselves to rituals, while some lend themselves to powers. The Mark of Warding doesn't really mind having to stand around for a while, but the Mark of Sentinel has some problems with that. Anyway, I'm going to give it some more thought. Let me know what ya think.
#60 misterfido_dup Jul 26, 2008 0:15:06	Well, I read a few posts here. Thought I'd contribute my dragonmark writeup. Hope someone likes it. I based them off other feats--I think ones from the warforged and dragonborn writeups, I don't recall. I think a couple of the powers are overpowered, but I can't really playtest it since I have no dragonmarked races in my current party. Aberrant Dragonmark [Dragonmarked Races] Prerequisite: Dragonmarked race. Benefit: The aberrant dragonmark attack power replaces one of your encounter attack powers. Also, when you use your second wind, you can choose to gain a +2 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn in addition to the defense bonus typically granted for a second wind. Aberrant Dragonmark Feat Power Your dragonmark burns like it touched a hot piece of metal, and you release a deadly blast of power at your foe. Encounter Standard Action Close blast 5 Targets: Each creature in blast Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex, Wisdom vs. Reflex, or Charisma vs. Reflex Hit: 3d6 + Constitution modifier damage, plus a condition (save ends). Miss: Half damage, and no condition effect. Increase to 4d6 + Constitution modifier damage at 6th level, 5d6 + Constitution modifier at 11th level, 6d6 + Constitution modifier at 16th level, 7d6 + Constitution modifier at 21st level, and 8d6 + Constitution modifier at 26th level. Special: When you choose this feat, choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as the ability score you choose when making attack rolls with this power. You can also choose the power's damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, or thunder. Lastly, you choose a condition to effect the target each round: grants combat advantage to all allies, ongoing 5 damage, slowed, or weakened. These choices remain throughout your character's life and do not change the power's other effects. Dragonmark [Dragonmarked Races] Prerequisite: Dragonmarked race, member of dragonmarked house. Benefit: The dragonmark utility power replaces one of your utility powers. The power it replaces must be 2nd level or higher. If you do not yet have a power of 2nd level or higher, you can replace the appropriate power when you gain it. Also, when you use your second wind, you can choose to gain a +3 bonus to skill checks until the end of your next turn in addition to the defense bonus typically granted for a second wind. Dragonmark Feat Power The skin around your dragonmark heats up, and the mark glows briefly as you apply its magic to your workings. Encounter Short Rest Targets: You, one ally, or one object (see below) Effect: The effect of this ability depends on what ability you chose when you selected this feat, restricted by your race and house: Dwarf: Kundarak; Warding; You scribe your dragonmark on a surface. When a creature touches the surface your dragonmark wards (or the same surface up to 1 square away) without speaking the password, or doing any other act you designate, your scribed mark explodes. Make a Constitution attack versus the Reflex defense of the creature who triggered the mark, and every other creature adjacent to it. They take 2d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage and 5 ongoing fire damage (save ends). A successful save does half damage, and ongoing 2 fire damage (save ends). This damage increases to 4d6 + Constitution modifier at 6th level, 5d6 + Constitution modifier at 11th level, 6d6 + Constitution modifier at 16th level, 7d6 + Constitution modifier at 21st level, and 8d6 + Constitution modifier at 26th level. This effect lasts until your next extended rest. You can only have one scribed mark at a time. Elf: Phiarlan; Shadow; You become invisible until you next attack, and you create an illusory double superimposed over yourself—dressed or disguised however you like. As a minor action, you can separate from the double, and as a minor action you can rejoin. While split, you and your double combined take a normal set of actions—a standard action, a move action, and a minor action. You divide these actions as you wish. You cannot move more than 20 squares from your double, or it vanishes and you are revealed. If someone interacts with you or your double, they can make an Insight check (DC equal to 15 + one-half your level) to reveal you and dismiss the double. Thuranni; Shadow; see Phiarlan. Gnome: Sivis; Scribing; You whisper a message to a creature you wish to speak to within 100 miles. You must be able to describe the target sufficiently to distinguish them. You are aware if the message was not received. Half-Orc: Tharashk; Finding; You know which direction you are facing and you know the direction in which a certain object lies. At 11th level, you can know which direction a creature lies. At 21st level, you know which direction a location lies. You must be able to describe the target sufficiently to distinguish them. Half-Elf: Lyrandar; Storm; You can adjust the wind conditions for up to a 2 mile radius. This effect follows you—in essence, you are always the eye of the storm. At 1st level, you create a gust wind. At 6th level, you can extinguish unprotected flames with strong winds, and disrupt the flight of insects and other tiny creatures. At 11th level, you can create a windstorm, kicking up dirt, destroying branches and small trees, and making ranged attacks impossible. At 21st level, you can create hurricane force winds, destroying even large trees and houses, and granting concealment from debris. You can dismiss this ability as a minor action, but otherwise it lasts for 5 minutes, or until the end of the next encounter. Medani; Detection; You can see your invisible creatures as though they were visible. This power lasts for 5 minutes, or until the end of the next encounter. Halfling: Ghallanda; Hospitality; You can choose to conjure enough food and drink to feed 10 creatures. This food is generally of high quality, but if uneaten disappears after 1 hour. Creatures who eat this food become immune to poison until their next extended rest. Jorasco; Healing; A touched target gains a bonus healing surge. They can only benefit from this ability once until their next extended rest. Human: Cannith; Making; You can conjure, transmute, or repair any object with hit points equal to your healing surge value (see page 65, Dungeon Master's Guide). Conjured appear worthless, and disappear at your next extended rest. Deneith; Sentinel; Until the end of your next encounter, you and up to five allies have resistance equal to your level plus your Constitution modifier. Choose the damage type from the following list: acid, cold, fire, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, or thunder. Orien; Passage; Until your next extended rest, you and up to five other characters add 1 to their overland speed for the purpose of hourly or daily travel rates, as well as charging or running. This automatically includes any mounts or vessels associated only with those characters. Tharashk; Finding; You know which direction you are facing and you know the direction in which a certain object lies. At 11th level, you can know which direction a creature lies. At 21st level, you know which direction a location lies. You must be able to describe the target sufficiently to distinguish them. Vadalis; Handling; You can communicate with one natural beast as though you both understood each other's vocalizations, though the extent of its knowledge may be limited by its intelligence. It is friendly to you, but still obeys its instincts and learned behavior.
#61 Gilo Aug 31, 2008 11:05:45	I haven't given it much thought yet (my group doesn't have dragonmarks), but I'm thinking dragonmarks could be a feat-set similar to the human racial feat "Action Surge": spend an action point and get some power to use or a bonus till next turn/end of encounter. with an improved feat version at paragon and epic tiers.
#62 Talae Aug 31, 2008 20:05:25	I will be needing to create the Dragonmark line of feats for my game. For now, it is just limited to the Mark of Shadow (Elf), but I would like to expand to all marks. Mark of Shadow, Least [Elf] Gain one of the following powers. The decision is made when this feat is chosen. Change Shape: Encounter Power (as the Doppelganger power) Cloud of Darkness: Daily Power (as the Drow power) You also gain a +1 feat bonus to Diplomacy. I was thinking that the lesser and greater version would function similar to the multiclass power swap feats and be tied to the tiers (least=heroic, lesser=paragon, greater=epic). I have also contemplated making all Dragonmark powers be encounter powers and function like Channel Divinity, in that the character would gain more options for a single power, but not more powers, with better versions of the feat. What do you guys think?
#63 misterfido_dup Aug 31, 2008 20:46:59	I stayed far, far, far away from simply saying "This ability lets you use one of these abilities" when designing my dragonmarks, on the previous page, for several reasons: 1) Not all abilities are created equal. Even racial abilities aren't. Dragonborn breath weapon versus Warforged healy thingy, for instance. Racial abilities are balanced against their race's other stats--and have no comparison at ALL for leveled abilities, like lightning bolt. 2) Every feat/power/whatever is unique. You can't find class lists referencing other class lists, nor can you find feats (beyond multiclass feats) which provide powers from classes. The reason? Because otherwise it's just boring. Hard to balance, maybe, but boring. 3) Saying "as another ability" really does yourself a disservice when it comes to designing powers that really fit your vision of the race. So while I like the general idea, I think basically a 4E conversion of the 3.5 "pick one of these spell" lists isn't going to work at all. It's just too... variable, and uninteresting.
#64 mystrich Aug 31, 2008 20:54:52	I was thinking that the lesser and greater version would function similar to the multiclass power swap feats and be tied to the tiers (least=heroic, lesser=paragon, greater=epic). I have also contemplated making all Dragonmark powers be encounter powers and function like Channel Divinity, in that the character would gain more options for a single power, but not more powers, with better versions of the feat. Actually, I'd say you're better off putting two into one tier (Least and Lesser in Heroic, or Lesser and Greater into Heroic). Epic levels to me represent the 15+ levels in 3.5 Eberron, and so Epic should be Syberis marks or later blooming Greater. Greater are slightly more common on the other hand.
#65 Talae Aug 31, 2008 21:39:04	I stayed far, far, far away from simply saying "This ability lets you use one of these abilities" when designing my dragonmarks, on the previous page, for several reasons: 1) Not all abilities are created equal. Even racial abilities aren't. Dragonborn breath weapon versus Warforged healy thingy, for instance. Racial abilities are balanced against their race's other stats--and have no comparison at ALL for leveled abilities, like lightning bolt. 2) Every feat/power/whatever is unique. You can't find class lists referencing other class lists, nor can you find feats (beyond multiclass feats) which provide powers from classes. The reason? Because otherwise it's just boring. Hard to balance, maybe, but boring. 3) Saying "as another ability" really does yourself a disservice when it comes to designing powers that really fit your vision of the race. So while I like the general idea, I think basically a 4E conversion of the 3.5 "pick one of these spell" lists isn't going to work at all. It's just too... variable, and uninteresting. I understand what you are saying, and in practice I would not tell a player that "you gain x power from y list in z book." I would instead reprint and probably reflavor. I do see what you mean on balance regarding powers. What is the route that most seem to be going? Is it working out okay? Actually, I'd say you're better off putting two into one tier (Least and Lesser in Heroic, or Lesser and Greater into Heroic). Epic levels to me represent the 15+ levels in 3.5 Eberron, and so Epic should be Syberis marks or later blooming Greater. Greater are slightly more common on the other hand. I don't know how, but I forgot about Syberis marks when writing the above post. Now that I think about it I lean more towards: Heroic=Aberrant/Least, Paragon=Lesser/Greater, Epic=Syberis.
#66 tiwaztyrsfist Sep 03, 2008 10:37:29	So, I'm really thinking that Dragonmarks in 4e are going to work like Multiclass feats. You'll have a series of 13 base feats (one each for the 12 true marks and one for abberant marks) which will give you a weak power (at-will caliber power) usable once per encounter, and some skill bonus. Then you'll have a series of Further Dragonmark feats. Lesser Dragonmark (swap a Utility for a Dragonmark Utility) Greater Dragonmark (swap a Daily for a Dragonmark Daily) If you take both of those, then you can choose, instead of taking a paragonpath, to become a "Dragonmarked Heir" and swap out an at-will for an at-will dragonmark power, and take further dragonmark powers. Heir of Syberis would be an Epic Destiny.
#67 Talae Sep 03, 2008 11:08:43	Care to make an attempt at the Mark of Shadow as an example?
#68 Talae Sep 03, 2008 11:44:25	Is this better?: Mark of Shadow, Least [Elf] Prerequisites:Elf Benefit:You can swap one utility power you know for one utility power listed below. You also gain a +1 feat bonus to Diplomacy. Blanket of Shadow With a subtle thought of the shadows, you fade from sight. Encounter Minor Action Close Burst 1 Effect: All creatures in area grant you combat advantage until the end of your next turn. Disguise of the Shadow With espionage in mind, you alter your appearance. At-Will (Keywords: Polymorph) Minor Action Tagert: Personal Effect: You may assume the form of a unique individual that is of the same gender and race.
#69 That_Blasted_Somoflange Sep 03, 2008 19:35:29	I'm still on the fence about any race having dragonmarks that are specific to a House. But, if there is one thing that would make me be more accepting of it, is the fact that it now is easier to steal and pilot an airship. Yep - I can make air-pirates, and turn House Lyrander into the East India Trading Co. Could make for a great adventure I would think. I really don't think that the Heir of Syberis will be an epic destiny.. Paragon path for sure, but Epic Destiny puts it out of the way for most of the game.
#70 Talae Sep 04, 2008 17:36:16	What if instead of gaining the ability to swap a power with a class power, you gained additional options for your racial power (similar to that of the Channel Divinity feats) with each dragonmark feat. For example, with my latest feat you could choose to use either Elven Accuracy or one of the powers listed. You could then take the feat again for the option of the other power. This way, you would not get more powers, but flexibility and it would be more racially intertwined.
#71 inkblot Sep 05, 2008 13:28:26	Talae, that idea doesn't really work. Half-elves can also get the Mark Of Shadow, and they don't have Elven Accuracy. In fact, the developers of 4e Eberron say that any race will be able to get any dragonmark. Some races simply don't have a racial power.
#72 grug_the_just Sep 05, 2008 15:47:49	In fact, the developers of 4e Eberron say that any race will be able to get any dragonmark. Some races simply don't have a racial power. I thought the developers had said that a PC of any race will be able to get any dragonmark.
#73 inkblot Sep 05, 2008 16:40:22	Yes. That was my point. NPCs don't really need these rules, after all. Dragonmarks can't work by replacing racial powers because some races don't have racial powers.
#74 grug_the_just Sep 05, 2008 21:31:46	Yes. That was my point. NPCs don't really need these rules, after all. Dragonmarks can't work by replacing racial powers because some races don't have racial powers. Sorry, must've missed that point. We are now in full agreement.
#75 Talae Sep 05, 2008 22:05:21	Isn't that statement limited to dwarves?
#76 inkblot Sep 06, 2008 0:48:12	Dwarves aren't the only ones who lack a racial power. Humans and Half-elves don't have racial powers either. They only have additional class powers. I haven't checked the MM races. There may be races in future realeases which don't have racial powers. Sorry, must've missed that point. We are now in full agreement. Awesome.
#77 Talae Sep 06, 2008 1:39:33	I tend to think of the Human and Half-Elf additional powers as racial powers, since they are specific to their race. For instance, the human gets an extra power from it's class due to quick learning, but couldn't that extra time be spent concentrating on the usage of a Dragonmark ability? I see your point though. I can't seem to find the answer that is a perfect fit. I just want something to hold me over until the books come out. I can't seem to find a Mark of Shaodw, Least that fits the previous statement. What is the one that people are using?