Instead of being per day abilities I'd do the following:
A least Dragonmark starts out as a Daily ability.
If a lesser Dragonmark is taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the least becomes an Encounter ability.
If a Greater is then taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the lesser becomes an encounter ability and the least becomes an At Will ability.
What are peoples thoughts on this approach?
Don't know if this has been brought up yet but here's my suggestion for Dragonmarks in 4e.
Instead of being per day abilities I'd do the following:
A least Dragonmark starts out as a Daily ability.
If a lesser Dragonmark is taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the least becomes an Encounter ability.
If a Greater is then taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the lesser becomes an encounter ability and the least becomes an At Will ability.
What are peoples thoughts on this approach?
I came up with something similar myself and then found out that blanket approach doesn't work well. Certain Dragonmarks lend themselves to per-encounter use and certain others to merely per-day use.
Cure light wounds is merely ok as a per-day but it is quite useful per-encounter. Create Food and Water is useless as a per-encounter power as it is only really needed once per day. You really have to do it on a power-by-power basis and it is hard to even do that without seeing how often a cleric can cast their cure light wounds for example. I would stick with them as they are until a preview or the PHB comes out, unless per-day use is very underpowered.
Tzarevitch
Don't know if this has been brought up yet but here's my suggestion for Dragonmarks in 4e.
Instead of being per day abilities I'd do the following:
A least Dragonmark starts out as a Daily ability.
If a lesser Dragonmark is taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the least becomes an Encounter ability.
If a Greater is then taken, it starts out as a Daily ability and the lesser becomes an encounter ability and the least becomes an At Will ability.
What are peoples thoughts on this approach?
My first thought is issues with game balance (Cure Light at will vs Identify at will?), but I can see where the idea could go if the powers were done correctly.
Personally, I'd rather see fewer per day abilities for Dragonmarks. Based on game play, I don't see how most marks would become unbalanced if allowed per encounter.
Something tangential I'd like covered: how does per encounter interact with downtime? If a player has a character with a per encounter heal effect, how many heals can he reaonably pull off in, say, an hour?
If dragonmarks are feats, they will be available at lower levels (for NPCs), so they'll end up being Heroic-tier feats. Combine that with how feats are pretty weak in 4e compared to 3e, and I see no reason to alter their per day mechanics. The only difference may lie in there being no need for a Dragonmark Heir PrC (since characters gain feats faster in 4e, regardless of class) and the Siberys mark my be relegated to a Paragon feat or changed into "Paragon Path."
I'm now wondering if the dragonmarks will not be too different from the way they work currently. It's been said that people generally take D-marks for the flavor, not the combat power...well, apparently that's sort of the way feats are meant to work in 4e.
If dragonmarks are feats, they will be available at lower levels (for NPCs), so they'll end up being Heroic-tier feats. Combine that with how feats are pretty weak in 4e compared to 3e, and I see no reason to alter their per day mechanics. The only difference may lie in there being no need for a Dragonmark Heir PrC (since characters gain feats faster in 4e, regardless of class) and the Siberys mark my be relegated to a Paragon feat or changed into "Paragon Path."
I'd like to see some of the stuff from Dragonmarked be in the ECS from the start. Stuff like discounts on gear, services, and circumstance bonuses when dealing with the Houses and Guilds. Maybe starting gear like in Forgotten Realms. Give them the ability to call up favors or allow them to garner the player extra income.
I'd like to see some of the stuff from Dragonmarked be in the ECS from the start. Stuff like discounts on gear, services, and circumstance bonuses when dealing with the Houses and Guilds. Maybe starting gear like in Forgotten Realms. Give them the ability to call up favors or allow them to garner the player extra income.
You mean like the Favored in House feat? Just saying...
As for the OP, I think it has to be approached on a more case by case basis. I can see Dragonmarks changing drastically based on their new initiative. They're removing most of the long term spells (Restoration, Resurrection, etc) from spell list and making them rituals. It would stand to reason that they would do something similar with the dragonmarks. Cannith would get a shake up on its ability (really only one of their abilities matches the new thrust of abilities). And they're hardly alone.
I can see a change up allowing for Dragonmark Rituals, and that being an extension of having Dragonmarks. And in the end, it will be racial feats, since Dragonmarks are keyed to race. So instead of using the generic ways of defining your race, you'd use the dragonmarks. First one you get gives you a per encounter power, maybe your second is a at will or a more powerful per encounter, and you'd have the ability focus type feats that would improve their potency.
Just my random thoughts though....
You mean like the Favored in House feat? Just saying...
Yes. My suggestion is that the Favored in House feat be removed, and that the general idea of its benefits be given over optionally to the Dragonmark feats.
The reason I say this is because in practice, I notice people not using the Favored in House feats. Instead, they take a Dragonmarked feat and use a background to tie themselves to a house. Because if I'm going to RP a noble merchant, I would rather do it with the optional ability of casting a few spell like abilities per day... even if they're lame and useless for an adventurer.
Rather than go against what players are doing by enforcing rules that people don't seem to want to use (like Favored in House), take the opportunity to redesign the rules to better facilitate the way people seem to enjoy playing.
Yes. My suggestion is that the Favored in House feat be removed, and that the general idea of its benefits be given over optionally to the Dragonmark feats.
I agree with this. The concept of being favored in a house isn't a good match for a feat; I think it would be better if instead the ECS just offered examples of the many small benefits that come with being part of the house. It's more a background thing that has a small effect on everything than a character power you spend a feat slot on. It's the same reason I don't think something like "My Father Is The Mayor" or "I Own My Own House" should be feats alongside Power Attack and Toughness. These things are better off as roleplaying background that can be integrated into the game differently on a per-player basis.
Rather than go against what players are doing by enforcing rules that people don't seem to want to use (like Favored in House), take the opportunity to redesign the rules to better facilitate the way people seem to enjoy playing.
I agree with this too. I think 4e is going along with this philosophy as well, that you shouldn't have to give up combat usefulness in order to have interesting out-of-combat story hooks. The Dragonmark feats could easily be both useful in combat (I think most should be low-level per-encounter abilities), and also carry the roleplaying benefit of Favored In House (unless you want to be an outcast). It's the same way that being a cleric in 3e gives you uber combat ability while simultaneously tying you to an important part of the game world and perhaps a powerful church, or the way that being a powerful wizard means you're both powerful mechanically and that you carry the roleplaying mystique of being a powerful wizard.
Personally, I'd really like to see dragonmarks added as racial abilities rather than feats.
QFT. Each dragonmarked house should have a "race" for dragonmarked members. Doing it with feats, at least as implemented in 3.5, is silly.
House Tharashk removes the option of having D marks as racial ability as they are made of two different race which both have the mark
Then have two different racial progressions.
Despite official claims to the contrary, I expect meny elements of Eberron will be altered and re-defined for 4E by the time it launches.
The biggist issue I see is that meny of the spells that were dragonmark abilities in 3.5, are likely rituals in 4E due to there out of combat nature.
Despite official claims to the contrary, I expect meny elements of Eberron will be altered and re-defined for 4E by the time it launches.
Well, that makes dragonmarks work even better.
If any level X wizard can disappear into thin air and reappear somewhere else after an hour of chanting, but someone with the Mark of Traveling can do it once every few minutes in the blink of an eye, that would explain why Houses have the power they do.
Because magic will be less limited per day, having a monopoly on power can't just be based on having access to an ability, it needs to be based on having access to that ability either faster, more often, or both.
Well, that makes dragonmarks work even better.
If any level X wizard can disappear into thin air and reappear somewhere else after an hour of chanting, but someone with the Mark of Traveling can do it once every few minutes in the blink of an eye, that would explain why Houses have the power they do.
Because magic will be less limited per day, having a monopoly on power can't just be based on having access to an ability, it needs to be based on having access to that ability either faster, more often, or both.
The dragonmarked houses don't need to have massive power like that now because of the mechanics in 3.5. It is less power-gaming and and that makes the dragonmark powers very powerful (but very limited in their power as they are specific with what they can do - hence the guilds pretty much owning their fields in which they are uniquely talented/skilled in.
The dragonmarked houses don't need to have massive power like that now because of the mechanics in 3.5. It is less power-gaming and and that makes the dragonmark powers very powerful (but very limited in their power as they are specific with what they can do - hence the guilds pretty much owning their fields in which they are uniquely talented/skilled in.
Would you mind expanding on what you mean by that? I never said that they needed to have massive power, just that since now that wizards can do as many rituals as they want for a bit of gold, dragonmark powers are overlapped by rituals and if they want to have any point in 4e you might want to make some changes to them.
Probably new dragonmarks for the new PHB races as well.
I always felt like the spell-like abilities, usable once or twice per day, and mirroring spells accessible to any wizard or cleric, were a bit a let down regarding the rich background of each family, the “guild” tone of their domains, and the intended link they share with the draconic prophecy.
So I’d rather have the abilities of the twelve be expressed by granted custom rituals : important achievements that can be obtained by spending some time and resources over the desired effect. Lyrandar heirs could summon and direct different winds, a marked Vadalis scion could imbue an animal with new abilities, Deneith would be known for applying potent wards, etc…
Moreover, it has been hinted in a recent podcast that any character, regardless of class or origin, would be able to use rituals (by expending a feat or two, seemingly). So any member of the house, and not just marked ones, would be able to mimic the rituals in question (but maybe less effectively, or by using costly materials, and would have to spend a long time in study). IMO, that’s way more efficient and believable for trading organizations. And the use of dragonshards would have a magnifying effect on the rituals, or be mandatory in some cases.
Last but not least, that would help to further differentiate true dragonmarks from aberrant ones. The more dark and combat oriented aberrant marks could instead be expressed by encounters abilities (à la burning hands), and this would explain why their carriers are so feared by the populace.
Well, at least that’s my take on it.
Moreover, it has been hinted in a recent podcast that any character, regardless of class or origin, would be able to use rituals (by expending a feat or two, seemingly). So any member of the house, and not just marked ones, would be able to mimic the rituals in question (but maybe less effectively, or by using costly materials, and would have to spend a long time in study). IMO, that’s way more efficient and believable for trading organizations. And the use of dragonshards would have a magnifying effect on the rituals, or be mandatory in some cases.
I think that they're referring to Wizard Training or another caster Training feat, which lets you start learning rituals like a caster. I'd say combine the dragonmarks with the efficient crafting line of feats to make anyone with a dragonmark automatically know their house's line of rituals and be able to cast them at 30% or lower price.
AN EXAMPLE:
i have the least dwarf dragonmark (I don'r remember the name), with the fire trap power, i avance to level...5 and i have 6 new ranks, i want to get a new dragonmark power so i spend some ranks (5 for example) to get a new dragonmark power.
(i know the ranks spended is very little)
as a player of D&D and a player of eberron, I think dragonmarks are very usefull but also are very restringed. In this post are said lots of things to make them more powerful, but i think the best idea is to "waste" a number of skill ranks to take another power of your dragonmark.
AN EXAMPLE:
i have the least dwarf dragonmark (I don'r remember the name), with the fire trap power, i avance to level...5 and i have 6 new ranks, i want to get a new dragonmark power so i spend some ranks (5 for example) to get a new dragonmark power.
(i know the ranks spended is very little)
However, ranks are not in 4e; you only have trained and focused skills.
Maybe?
...So...people of appropriate race could have a 'Dragonmark' skill, which if "trained" means you have a mark with scaling abilities. Then you could take "racial feats" to gain extra abilities later on.
Maybe?
Probably just having them only be racial feats would be best, because (A) it's been done like that thus far and (B) scaling would be better accomplished by just using character level. It could work, though.
TBQH, Half-Orcs are out of the PHB, they are probably going to be retconned into never being able to develop a dragonmark. It sucks I know, but that's the route I can see WoTC going.
Probably new dragonmarks for the new PHB races as well.
Uh...no. and no.
The timeline is not advancing and there is no indication that the basic politics are changing. half-orcs and humans will still hold the mark of finding, gnomes will still hold the mark of scribing and tieflings and dragonborns will be in the same boat as changelings and shifters.
On topic, I think spell like abilities completely (or largely) divorced from the class power system is the way to go. Feats I think are still idea, because the represent a sacrifice that the player is making for the sake of his or her character (ability for ability), even if it is not something that the character "chooses"
Mark of healing could be like Healing Word, to keep within the sense of balance of the system while mark of hospitality could turn a ritual (secure shelter) into a one round spell like ability.
Just my thoughts.
DC
It may make sense that this combat utility is restricted to the "heroic" version of the dragonmark (i.e. on PCs and NPCs with class levels get the combat utility). Your everyday NPC with a dragonmark just can't use it in that manner, and since NPCs don't typically have feats that works fine mechanically.
Now this doesn't mean that the scope of the dragonmark feat is limited to it's combat ability, it could go beyond that and allow the marked individual to perform specific dragonmarked rituals and activate dragonshard items.
I honestly don't see the necessity of keeping the Least, Lesser, and Greater divisions. The level of the combat ability should determine when a particular dragonmark can be gained, and they can likely all be heroic tier. The more ritual-like abilities are those that were gained in the later stages of 3e dragonmarks, so I hardly see the need to have additional feat costs for those since level can determine access to rituals. Particular marks may have feats that expand on the basic utility of the dragonmarked feat, but that would be on a case-by-case basis and leaves room for later expansion.
Simply by being cheaper, the dragonmarked houses could undercut traditional spellcasters. The associated rituals also may have fewer limitations (lower level) or work more quickly.
The problem with a dragonmark producing a combat effect is that they didn't really produce a combat effect in 3.5. Dragonmarks are good for the economy of the society, not some kind of superman power. But, while I agree that it sucks to trade a combat feat for a "flavor" feat generally, a lot of times it depends on the type of game that specific player is playing in. If it's intrigue and deception, with plenty of diplomacy and role-playing-it's not that bad of a trade off. However, most games aren't like that. Thus, if you take it once and the Dragonmark improves automatically at specific levels-it won't hurt a character that bad (except at first level, but with around 30 hit point, I'm sure they'll be fine.). So first level = least; 11th level = lesser; 21st level = greater.
As an option, offer additional feats to gain bonus uses with the mark, or gain the new mark powers faster; to where maybe a 7th level character "can" (if he wants to sacrifice a feat for it) be more powerful within his house and have better status for trading more combat options.
Hopefully Keith can at least tell us if they've established 4E dragonmarks for playtesting and if he thinks they are on the right track. He won't be able to tell us anything concrete; but maybe where he thinks they are in deciding the final mechanics of them.
And Keith, if you're reading-Do you think the 3.5 dragonmark rules will work fine in a 4E game? I think that's what I'm aiming to try...
Maybe it could be a feat taken only at first level; like the racial feats from forgotten realms PGtF...and the Dragonmark grows with the character?
That seems like an unnecessary limitation. What is gained from limiting a dragonmark feat to 1st level?
The problem with a dragonmark producing a combat effect is that they didn't really produce a combat effect in 3.5.
Why is that a problem? Dragonmarks are unlikely to have the exact same effects that they did in 3e. The same spells just don't exist anymore, and don't really make sense in a 4e rules environment. Cure light wounds and lesser restoration don't have equivalents in a rules-set with healing surges and no ability damage.
Why not fix the problem that Dragonmarks were limited to "flavor" feats and were sub-optimal choices, since 4e is trying to get rid of sub-optimal choices? The effect can still be thematically tied to the dragonmark's focus.
And Keith, if you're reading-Do you think the 3.5 dragonmark rules will work fine in a 4E game? I think that's what I'm aiming to try...
Some dragonmarks have effects that will be easy to duplicate in 4e rules, some may not. House Orien's dimension hop can easily be made into an effect like fey step, but repair damage? You may be out of luck.
We get dragonmarks as a racial feat that initially gives the user some combat advantage, as well as a big background impact (this one is not completely positive)
A dragonmark is as powerful as the character level of the guy but to gain more combat advantages you need more feats. You can still get siberis dragonmarks at paragon levels (if you don't have the normal mark).
There's a bunch of rituals and out of combat stuff that works around dragonmarks and since we don't really know the rules for them... we can't ask for anything there. Only that you don't need to sacrifice feats to gain non-combat stuff.
We don't need every mark to have the same amount of combat-positive stuff. The mark of the sentinel could allow for 8 different racial feats you can take after getting the mark, all of those would help you in combat. The mark of scribing can get just one, at the moment of taking it.
Still, I think the initial effect of a dragonmark would be in addition to normal class abilities, that is way it was done with the multiclass feats after all.
Some of the Dragonmarks lend themselves readily to a combat utility. Warding and Sentinel can easily grant thematically appropriate abilities. But what would you have the Mark of Making or Scribing do? The multiclass feats are probably a good baseline to set the power level of the Dragonmark feats.
After the article on multi-classing in 4E, the idea is now starting to kick around my head about adapting a similar system for Dragonmarks with the option to take certain powers from a list of Dragonmark abilities in place of class powers. Taking such a feat wouldn't be ruled as preventing other multiclass feats.
I agree; it's a good idea. It could also follow the multiclassing idea that if you really love your dragonmark, you could take a Paragon Path in it (maybe it could replace the Dragonmark Heir PrC).
One way they could handle Dragonmarks is by giving each type of Dragonmark a unique Utility Power, possibly one tied into the milestone/action point mechanics of 4E (just because it seems apropriate to me), or possible just at will. They could probably use 4E as a chance to rebuild some of the different Mark abilities so that they work a bit better as the basis of global monopolies...
It seems like there should be an Epic Destiny associated with Dragonmarks, but I have no idea how a Dragonmark could lead to a proper "immortality/retirement" like all Epic Destinies are supposed to do...
It would be fun to figure out combat applications for some of those marks. A Mark of Scribing encounter power? I'm imagining some low-grade symbols or truename shenanigans. Cannith's encounter powers could do something to boost other powers with the "weapon" or "implement" descriptor. For the Mark of Hospitality I'd probably resort to plagiarizing the Black Dog prestige class. In fact, a lot of powers could be raided from the PrCs in Dragonmarked.
I'd be inclined to put a House's money-making powers, as has been suggested, into rituals that require a Dragonmark and dragonshards. That way, a Lyrandar PC never has to choose between being able to blow the opposition away during an encounter or summoning rain during downtime (and a Ghallanda operator never has to choose between being able to poison someone and being able to redecorate a tavern).
Of course, I don't yet know how those Dragonmarked powers should fit into a character's regular suite, but I'm hoping that seeing the whole rule set will suggest a temporary solution.
Therefore, the base marks should be either a feat or race advancement option that grants a daily use power.
Dragonmark Heir (and similar PrCs) could then be incorporated as Paragon Paths, and at some point in the advancement render some of your mark powers Per Encounter rather than Daily.
Obviously many powers would require tinkering, you can't just slap them all in a form and expect it to work.
Regarding the aquisition of Dragonmarks outside of a Paragon Path - A series of feats: Least, Lesser, and Greater- seems the most viable way to build dragonmarks.
However, we should take into account the way WoTC looks at Multi-Classingand compare the two. Perhaps the Least Dragonmark will give a character a bonus on a specific skill, and an encounter power or low level ritual, but if Dragonmarks plan to be anywhere near competetive with the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats, then they will either need to operate on the same level (swapping your character's class power for the Dragonmark Power) or they will need to offer powers that are entirely unique to the Dragonmarks.
In fact, the latter seems the better choice, because if Dragonmarks were to simply grant access to an existing set of powers taken from the power list of pre-existing classes, they would resemble Multi-Classing feats without the open options offered through Multi-Classing. The list of appropriate powers for a specific dragonmark would be infintesimally small when compared to the options available from one of the core classes.
So it seems that one of two methods for assigning dragonmarks would be most attractive.
-Either the Dragonmarks are offered through feats that simply add minor powers (without requireing a power-swap) that may stem from pre-existing classes.
-Or the Dragonmarked Feats offer unique powers/rituals that hold the flavor of the Dragonmarked houses we have come to know and love, but may require a power-swap similar to multi-classing in order to maintain the balance of power.
It would be fun to figure out combat applications for some of those marks. A Mark of Scribing encounter power? I'm imagining some low-grade symbols or truename shenanigans. Cannith's encounter powers could do something to boost other powers with the "weapon" or "implement" descriptor. For the Mark of Hospitality I'd probably resort to plagiarizing the Black Dog prestige class. In fact, a lot of powers could be raided from the PrCs in Dragonmarked.
Mark of Scribing in combat could be cool... Maybe a "Confuse Language" spell that disorients a creature and makes it unable to give or receive Leader-type effects. Or a "Ginsberg's Baleful Howl" spell that fills the air around the target with angry poetry that disrupts spellcasting and give him a -2 to all attacks. Or the deadly "Reader's Digest" spell, which scrawls verses of blasphemous text all over the target in acidic ink that causes continuous damage 5 until they make a save.
Man... I want to play that character right now.
Mark of Scribing in combat could be cool... Maybe a "Confuse Language" spell that disorients a creature and makes it unable to give or receive Leader-type effects. Or a "Ginsberg's Baleful Howl" spell that fills the air around the target with angry poetry that disrupts spellcasting and give him a -2 to all attacks. Or the deadly "Reader's Digest" spell, which scrawls verses of blasphemous text all over the target in acidic ink that causes continuous damage 5 until they make a save.
Man... I want to play that character right now.
My idea for Sivis is the red tape power which immobilizes the target.
I would agree that the Dragonmarked Heir would make an attractive Paragon Path, but to me, Heir of Siberys would fit best amongst the Epic Destinies. In 3.5, A full Heir of Siberys was a 15th level character, well on their way towards the heights of character acheivement. In addition, they gained powers that, in most campaigns, were considered to be legendary.
That doesn't sound like a bad idea. However, developing a Siberys dragonmark doesn't do anything to remove you from the world stage and grant you a form of immortality. The flavor of it would have to be changed somehow. Perhaps working it into the Draconic Prophecy, such that your character becomes an immortal part of the prophecy, somehow. Maybe like that guy at the end of Eys Of The Lich Queen, or the guardian of the grail in Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade.