So can someone tell me why WotC has changed this in the 4e Eberron books? Orcs and Hobgoblins are just vermin to be exterminated...
Huh? There is still no difference. Orcs are still a druidic folk and the hobgoblins are still, first and foremost, a warrior culture devoted to duty and honor. It's just that 4e doesn't have PC stats for hobgoblins (or for that matter, goblins and bugbears) or orcs, so it's hard to focus on them too much with all the other material the world has.
So in other words you haven't read the 4e boks...
* And technically these are not even random monsters. They all have strong motivations and reasons for why they are enemies of the human empire.
You have countries like Darguun that is a hobgoblin led nation that is understandably different in terms of civility to what we would call the norm. It doesn't mean they are any different to how they were in 3.5 books.
Huh? There is still no difference. Orcs are still a druidic folk and the hobgoblins are still, first and foremost, a warrior culture devoted to duty and honor. It's just that 4e doesn't have PC stats for hobgoblins (or for that matter, goblins and bugbears) or orcs, so it's hard to focus on them too much with all the other material the world has.
So in other words you haven't read the 4e boks...
Umm, yeah, I have. I own the 3.5 ECS, the EPG, ECG, and several other 3.5 books of the setting, so I know what I'm talking about. There is still no difference between editions other than a little extra for the dragonborn and semantics for changelings. In fact, the khesh'dar of Darguun actually got a small entry in the ECG, while they didn't get a mention in the 3.5 ECS. Also, just because there are monster entries doesn't mean they're automatically your enemy. These are simply quick NPC entries in case either winds up an ally or enemy, to make life easier for the DM. Remember, King Boranel, Queen Aurala, Lhesh Haruuc, and the criminal gangs of Sharn have no "monster" entries, but they could potentially be enemies or allies.
I pulled out my EPG and looked at the "Supporting Cast" section, and the harshest treated are Gnolls, depicted as bloodthirsty monsters unless they're from the Znir Pact.
Myriddian, is there a specific passage, or passages, that give you this impression? Please, citation needed.
So in other words you haven't read the 4e boks...
Orcs and Goblins haven't change in 4E Eberron.
With that said, I'm guessing that the problem here is based on the Eberron Player's Guide. One troubling line is on page 41, which states:
Before the rise of humans on Khorvaire, goblin tribes had established what was then the largest unified empire on Khorvaire. Disciplined hobgoblins ruled the Dhakaani Empire, breeding goblins and bugbears as slaves, laborers, and warriors. Weakened by the usual infighting, the empire fell swiftly to the advancing wave of humanity.
There's no mention of the of the true cause of the destruction of the Dhakaani Empire (the Xoriat incursion), and there's little about things like the Duur'kala, artifacts, etc. This is because the EPG goes out of its way to avoid things that could be considered spoilers, and the fact of the matter is that most people of the Five Nations don't know anything about Goblin history or culture. However, the Legacy of Dhakaan, Dhakaani Dragonshard articles, etc are still as applicable to 4E as in 3E, and if you read the Darguun section in the Eberron Campaign Guide (4E) you'll see that it still includes the Xoriat incursion, the Kech Volaar, the Kesh'dar, and more.
As I see it, the problem is that Goblins weren't considered as viable PCs by the people who worked on the EPG, and as a result, the EPG doesn't include the background information you'd want if you were playing a Goblin or Hobgoblin; it gives you the perspective of a Thrane or Karrnathi human. But as the guy who wrote the 4E ECG section on Darguun, I can say with reasonable confidence that the Goblins haven't changed dramatically since 3.5.
As I see it, the problem is that Goblins weren't considered as viable PCs by the people who worked on the EPG, and as a result, the EPG doesn't include the background information you'd want if you were playing a Goblin or Hobgoblin; it gives you the perspective of a Thrane or Karrnathi human. But as the guy who wrote the 4E ECG section on Darguun, I can say with reasonable confidence that the Goblins haven't changed dramatically since 3.5.
Yeah, but lets be honest, nor were they in 3E. You could only play an orc or goblin by extrapolating their PC race status from the Monster Manual and there was no real support beyond that Monster Manual, just as in 4E.
As for the FR, the current incarnation is actually reasonably fair towards non-humans. Orcs for example now have their own kingdom, and in Thesk they are an accepted and respected part of human civilization ;)
As for the FR, the current incarnation is actually reasonably fair towards non-humans. Orcs for example now have their own kingdom, and in Thesk they are an accepted and respected part of human civilization ;)
Yeah, on a thread I started on the FR board, someone hit up Candlekeep, and they came up with booku examples of how my premise was wrong.
Still, as a player with no experience with FR, all I could go off of is whats on page 20 of the FRPG. That section isn't exactly...charitable towards goblinkind.
Yeah, but lets be honest, nor were they in 3E.
I never said they were. My point is that the original ECS was a combined player/DM book that presented things without any special bias. In 4E, the EPG was specifically designed as a player book, often concealing information that wouldn't be common knowledge to players (a common complaint about the 3.5 ECS). Goblins weren't considered to be a player race, thus the information presented is from the viewpoint of the common player races... and is lacking if you wanted to play a goblin. Nothing's changed, you're just dealing with an intentionally unreliable narrator. I think this is a logical decision, but one that should have been clearly called out in the introduction.
So my statement that goblins aren't considered a player race isn't a change from 3E; it's that it didn't make a difference in the 3.5 ECS, because that wasn't split along player/DM lines.