If I recal in 3.5 there was no healing, so if you're implying its the same in 4e??
Did I miss a post on this?
If I recal in 3.5 there was no healing, so if you're implying its the same in 4e??
I was wondering the same thing. I know that the Mourning Savior epic destiny says that people within 5 squares of you can "heal normally" within the Mournlands, but I haven't seen anything about whether that means there is no healing or just more limited healing there.
Example: "You do not normally regain all spent healing surges at the end of a extended rest. Instead, you roll a death saving throw for each spent healing surge. Success means you regain that surge." So warforge are still pretty much immune to the Mournland but everyone else can still heal in a fight but will have problems afterward.
Example: "You do not normally regain all spent healing surges at the end of a extended rest. Instead, you roll a death saving throw for each spent healing surge. Success means you regain that surge." So warforge are still pretty much immune to the Mournland but everyone else can still heal in a fight but will have problems afterward.
nice, I'm stealing that.
Edit:
Or maybe have them roll on any healing surge spend - in and out of encounter.
Yeah, before I saw the Mourning Savior ED and his people can heal normally aura, I had figured that the Mournland would have limited the recovery of healing surges.
Example: "You do not normally regain all spent healing surges at the end of a extended rest. Instead, you roll a death saving throw for each spent healing surge. Success means you regain that surge." So warforge are still pretty much immune to the Mournland but everyone else can still heal in a fight but will have problems afterward.
Maye true, but if I recall healing in the Mournland before was out period. So, in my mind, I'd think if you can't use them, your ability to regain them is also mute. However, with reference to the MS, I'd assume that if he/she lets you use them in their aura, you can also recover them.
I enjoyed the Mournland from 3.5, it was a tough place. I don't recall warforged being immune to the effect, as I use to play it that healing (in any form) was out.
I enjoyed the Mournland from 3.5, it was a tough place. I don't recall warforged being immune to the effect, as I use to play it that healing (in any form) was out.
Well, in 3.5 warforged could be targeted by Repair spells (which worked fully on them, while healing spells only restored half HP on them.) I believe they also could use Craft checks to restore hitpoints, given time, and this was important because they didn't heal naturally like most creatures. So healing was just as ineffective on them in the Mournland as anyone else, but they had additional options. This was lightly important because it gave an extra justification for why the Lord of Blades and his followers were able to have their base of operations out there, without having to regularly trek out into non-Cyran territory just to patch themselves up.
I enjoyed the Mournland from 3.5, it was a tough place. I don't recall warforged being immune to the effect, as I use to play it that healing (in any form) was out.
Warforged didn't heal from rest no matter where they were. They regained hit points by making Craft checks, repairing themselves. The general rule in 3.5 was that spells and powers with the [healing] subtype didn't work. That left only a few loopholes that allowed any healing in the Mournlands, one of which was that repair spells worked fine.
Warforged didn't gain any actual advantage in the Mournlands. The disadvantage inherent in the place simply didn't apply to them.
Not nearly as punishing as 'no healing' (or straight off half-healing) but 4E is much much more healing dependent than 3.5 was.
Personally I'd run it the second way to emphasize how awful the Mournlands are.
But wasn't it the case that Paladin's Lay On Hands was the only kind of healing you could use in the Mournlands and everyone else pretty much just used Rope Trick to get into an extra-dimensional space for heals?
It's possible they could go as far as saying that being in the mournlands prevents your healing surges from recharging. Imagine adventuring for several days with only one days worth of surges, that would make it a dire situation indeed.
Ooh, that would be pretty nasty, not to mention the fact that something like that would also change how some classes work. Artificers might actually make more sense in that context.
Being a player in Eberron and having played a few sessions based on an adaptation in 4ED of the setting, my DM prevented all powers with the healing keyword to function. Too bad for me since I played a cleric and an artificer. The cleric was built primarily as a healer was nearly useless.
Every other player felt the impact on their character due to this and we had to change our tactics accordingly. But being prevented from healing for several days of adventure in the Mounrland was quite harsh. In the end we promised each other to refuse any mission in the future that would take place in this accursed place. After all even characters have a will of their own and are not always forced to go to the Mournland, even if its design is interesting and immaginative
I sincerly hope for me DM's sake that healing in the Mourland in 4ED will not be completely out of the picture. Anyway, there are other great places in this setting without the need to go into the Mournland. Just ignore it !
If you look at how 4e is designed, it is based around being able to heal. You are given healing surges everyone can heal to some extent, so combat encounters are built to constantly do damage. If you can't heal in the mounlands at all then there is no way you vould go through more then one comnbat in the mounlands before you are done.
In 3.5 there were ways around it with pocket demensions like Rope Trick. Now alot of those things don't work the way they did in 3.5 so that is out as well. Really if there is no way to heal in the mournlands then even at Epic level you will probably want to stay the hell out of there. If even epic level characters can't survive in the mournlands unless they have someone with that Savior destiny then whats the point of haveing it.
Also if there is no healing at all in the mournlands then how does the Lord of Blades, and his followers live there? I mean uless they come out with a repair spell like they did in 3.5 the Lord of Blades, and his followers, would be just as boned as anyone else.
Well if they are going to make it that you can't heal in the Mournlands just like in 3.5 then there is no way any one would ever go into it unless probably epic level. There is no way you could survive in the Mournlands with out being able to heal in 4e.
If you look at how 4e is designed, it is based around being able to heal. You are given healing surges everyone can heal to some extent, so combat encounters are built to constantly do damage. If you can't heal in the mounlands at all then there is no way you vould go through more then one comnbat in the mounlands before you are done.
This is a good point. I think it would make the most sense to say that in 4e, the Mournland does not hinder you in spending healing surges, but gaining them. As in, extended rests do not refresh your healing surges.
This would put a tense built-in "timer" on any Mournland adventure, as you watch your healing surges steadily dwindle, day after day, with no refresh.
You could spend a week in the wasteland of the Mournland, and have the desolate trip punctuated by only two or three encounters, but each one would be terrifying because you know that with every step further into the mournland, you have to take at least that many to get back out.
Also if there is no healing at all in the mournlands then how does the Lord of Blades, and his followers live there? I mean uless they come out with a repair spell like they did in 3.5 the Lord of Blades, and his followers, would be just as boned as anyone else.
Well, the warforged have an ability which provides some innate healing. There is also the possibility that the warforged are in a location where they are at the 'eye of the storm' or that they have some sort of maguffin that allows them to heal but it only works for warforged bound to the device or within the ritual. Then again they might have a working creation forge to rebuild themselves or create backup bodies.
"The only creatures here are treasure hunters, travelers, and those beings that do not possess a life force on which the land can prey: warforged, undead, and stranger creatures."
I'm guessing the ECG writeup will say something along the lines of "Creatures without the living construct, construct, or undead keywords cannot spend healing surges while in the Mournland."
Interestingly, the EPG does say this about the Mournland on page 8:
"The only creatures here are treasure hunters, travelers, and those beings that do not possess a life force on which the land can prey: warforged, undead, and stranger creatures."
I'm guessing the ECG writeup will say something along the lines of "Creatures without the living construct, construct, or undead keywords cannot spend healing surges while in the Mournland."
Well, there is another possibility, what if the land is essentially eating healing surges. The quote mentions preying on the life force of others, what if it actually creates a sort of draining field which drinks away the healing surges of the living people who explore there.
Maybe also that on top of that may something on the lines that 2nd winds and healing during a normal rest only heals 1/2 the normal amount. This would probably make it more nessisary for haveing a real healer in the party.
It will be intresting to see how they will explain how the Lord of Blades and his followers survive in the Mournlands between not being able to heal and the curse effect that there will be since warfroged are no longer immune to curses.
I wonder how Hellcow does this in his game
With Style!:D
The real question with the real answer of almost every Eberron thread...
My DM just picked up the EPG today, and I was reading through the Mourning Savior. If I am reading the Mornland Dedicate class feature it leads me to believe that you can't used healing powers in the Mournlands. I really hope that, that isn't the case because unless you actualy have a Mourning Savior in your party there is no way even an epic level party could survive in the Mournlands with the way the 4e mechanics work.
It will be intresting to see how they will explain how the Lord of Blades and his followers survive in the Mournlands between not being able to heal and the curse effect that there will be since warfroged are no longer immune to curses.
Personally, I really feel that any Mournlands based game almost requires the DM to put on the kid gloves to make the game Nintendo Hard instead of 2 Player Battletoads Hard.
My DM just picked up the EPG today, and I was reading through the Mourning Savior. If I am reading the Mornland Dedicate class feature it leads me to believe that you can't used healing powers in the Mournlands. I really hope that, that isn't the case because unless you actualy have a Mourning Savior in your party there is no way even an epic level party could survive in the Mournlands with the way the 4e mechanics work.
It will be intresting to see how they will explain how the Lord of Blades and his followers survive in the Mournlands between not being able to heal and the curse effect that there will be since warfroged are no longer immune to curses.
I have a few possible theories. One is that the exact wording might be that healing powers that require spending a healing surge can't be used. Technically speaking the artificer abilities don't require that, so their healers might be artificers as well as having abilities/templates similar to the battle commander or something similar. It's also possible that the LoB has some sort of maguffin or special power that allows him to grant the ability of proper healing to his followers.
The average party can handle 4-5 encounters per day at heroic, 5-6 at paragon, and 6+ at epic. So let's say 5 encounters per day before a party starts threatening to not pay for the DM's pizza anymore.
5 encounters is 1/2 of a level... one level is associated with one complete adventure...
So, for a party to spend an entire adventure in the Mournland (which is the desired result; what's the point of a land you can't spend an adventure in? Elemental Plane of Earth much?), they would have to be able to use AT LEAST two extended rests of healing surges.
But at the same time, they must have a heavy restriction along the lines of the way Hellcow was doing it about a year ago (I lost the link) where you don't regain surges in the Mournland.
So... what restricts your healing surge usage, while giving you some, AND is as parsimonious as possible?
My vote is for 'you can't use healing surges unless you're bloodied.'
It's simple. It goes with 4E's concept that 'bloodied means you're injured' and the Mournland's concept that 'you can't heal injuries.'. It lets you have your two days worth of adventuring, yet it DOES impose the Mournland's strict healing schedule on you.
And it doesn't break 4E's mechanic of making healing surges necessary to exist past even the frailest encounters.
EDIT: Also, the Mourning Savior or whatever it is makes me believe that you simply can't use Healing powers, but you CAN rest as normal--so, short rests can heal you, but clerics cannot.
Which seems actually a back asswards way of doing it to me, since, all kudos to the terrors of the Mournland, I don't like the idea of completely gimping not just a class, but an entire role.
*edit* Also what about healing powers that only trigger on the bloody state like the one shifter? power. Would Regen powers also work?
If you spend a healing surge while blooded - you do not restore the surge hitpoints unless you succeed in a death saving throw.
I think the pros of that are:
- leader classes healing ability stay intact.
- you still get the extended rest benefits.
- the death saving throws for a blooded PC will add some dice suspense in Mournland encounters while still given the blooded PC a fighting chance.
- gives Warforged an edge over other races due to their Living Construct racial feature which makes them automatically pass death saves.
Doesn't mean it's fun.
Our problem isn't the lack of scariness of the Mournland... it's that, there needs to be a tight balance between 'kinda scary but not really' and 'so scary that we don't even go there, no matter what the plot hook is'.
And for difficulty, it needs to sit neatly between 'not a significant challenge' and 'so challenging you can't base an entire adventure there'.
We are trying to find that balance between those areas, something delicate and hard to do, while we wait for the campaign guide to come out.
The Elemental Plane of Water sent a message, too, if you accidentally got sent there via random planar destinations!
Doesn't mean it's fun.
Our problem isn't the lack of scariness of the Mournland... it's that, there needs to be a tight balance between 'kinda scary but not really' and 'so scary that we don't even go there, no matter what the plot hook is'.
And for difficulty, it needs to sit neatly between 'not a significant challenge' and 'so challenging you can't base an entire adventure there'.
We are trying to find that balance between those areas, something delicate and hard to do, while we wait for the campaign guide to come out.
First things first...Xp comment was meant as a joke based off of the Joker's "It's not about the Money...it's about sending a message." line from the Dark Knight. I'm only commenting on this because I found the elemental plane of water response to be odd in my head.
That said, I'm just advocating having it be as difficult to do Healing in the Mournlands as it was in 3.5. No powers other than Lay on Hands, but you can heal in extradimensional pockets such as ones created by Rope Trick or Leomunds.
1) Healing eats 2 healing surges instead of one. The first for the actual healing and the second is simply wasted by the Mournland.
2) Being in the Mournland for X hours reduces healing surges over time. So if you are there six hours it will reduce your healing surges by 1 per hour. If tied to an endurance check with a suitable DC this should in fact work relatively well for heroic Mournland adventuring. Could even make it a skill challenge involving heal, endurance, nature and arcana.
3) Simply use the concept that the Mournland means you cannot regain healing surges, so a short excursion into the Mournland is possible but you won't be getting out easily. What you go in with is all you have left and you had better think about how you use them.
Xi Mao]but you can heal in extradimensional pockets such as ones created by Rope Trick or Leomunds.
These aren't readily available in 4th edition anymore until late paragon/epic tiers. I think many here are thinking towards Heroic tier.
I still feel that many of you are making survival in the mournlands too easy. But until I run a game in the mournlands/they come out with official rules, All I can say is that I really hope that you can make your games fun that way. Afterall, it's not about the XP...it's about sending a message.
The lack of healing is just one aspect of the horrors that my PCs will face in the Mournland, what comes next are the other 1001 Mournland Horrors :evillaugh .
That means going to the Mournland is suicidal, since you can only use your second wind. However, going to the Mournland in 3.5 was suicidal too with the exception of rope trick and those other loopholes to get out of the effect. As a DM, I houseruled that the Mournland played with teleport effects and "Extradimensional spaces" as well; but that's just me.
Beyond that, I've always been of the opinion that the only thing you can rely on in the Mournland is that you can't rely on anything in the Mournland. In previous games I've added places in the Mournland where healing is possible or even enhanced... a manifest zone to Lamannia in which a Cyran village is perfectly preserved, but should any of the original inhabitants leave its borders they instantly sicken and die.
In any case, there is a general rule on healing, but it is not simply "You cannot spend healing surges in the Mournland."
These aren't readily available in 4th edition anymore until late paragon/epic tiers. I think many here are thinking towards Heroic tier.
hmm...I forgot that rope trick is a 12th level ritual these days...(I honestly thought it was like, level 6, tops.). Still, adding a ritual that serves my desire for an extra-dimensional space to heal in whilst out and about in the Mournland shouldn't be too hard...
The problem I ultimately have with most of this is that HP do not solely represent physical injury. Even if you can't heal what wounds you do receive, does the Mournland keep you from catching your breath? Finding reserves of fighting spirit?
"Does the Mournland keep you from ... finding reserves of fighting spirit?"
It's the Mournland.
Just knowing that the place exists keeps you from finding reserves of fighting spirit. [1]
Being there? Being there will make an otherwise stalwart warrior curl into a ball and weep.
Being there makes "catching your breath" an exercise in emotional and spiritual agony as you take a bit of what that place is—what it represents—into yourself.
That hit points represent one's mental reserves—as well as physical—is the best argument I have heard yet for why healing doesn't do well in the Mournland.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] Knowing that it exists keeps entire kingdoms from finding reserves of fighting spirit. This is pretty much what ended the Last War.
But anyway, it gives you powers to "heal normally" or at least that's how I remember it; at various levels of abilities. Heal as normal would mean using abilities as healing powers, second wind, and healing up after a 5 min rest with surges.
Anyone have suggestions based on that?
There is an epic path in the EPG that kinda gives a hint. The book is in the bedroom where my wife is sleeping, so I don't want to wake her and try and be sneaky.
But anyway, it gives you powers to "heal normally" or at least that's how I remember it; at various levels of abilities. Heal as normal would mean using abilities as healing powers, second wind, and healing up after a 5 min rest with surges.
Anyone have suggestions based on that?
It says you can benefit from healing powers as normal. It seems to be suggesting to me that you can heal in the mournland, but powers don't work. But we will see in a little while I guess.
It seems to be suggesting to me that you can heal in the mournland, but powers don't work.
What I can say is that the rule affects all characters equally. As such, it doesn't make a character who's focused on healing abilities useless. It will makes adventuring challenging, but not impossible, and again, it's not going to make the cleric feel useless while the fighter is unaffected.
"Does the Mournland keep you from ... finding reserves of fighting spirit?"
It's the Mournland.
Just knowing that the place exists keeps you from finding reserves of fighting spirit. [1]
Being there? Being there will make an otherwise stalwart warrior curl into a ball and weep.
Being there makes "catching your breath" an exercise in emotional and spiritual agony as you take a bit of what that place is—what it represents—into yourself.
That hit points represent one's mental reserves—as well as physical—is the best argument I have heard yet for why healing doesn't do well in the Mournland.
—Siran Dunmorgan
[1] Knowing that it exists keeps entire kingdoms from finding reserves of fighting spirit. This is pretty much what ended the Last War.
That's normal schlubs. We're talking about heroes here.
Without breaking NDA, can you tell us whether warforged still gain an advantage in the mournland?
In terms of healing, no, because the concept of warforged repair no longer exists. However, warforged still gain a significant advantage in that they do not eat or drink, which still makes them one of the only races that could contemplate settling such a hostile environment. Looking to healing, it's a handicap, but it's not as deadly as the 3.5 you-just-can't-heal-period rule, so warforged (and members of other races) can live there; it's a handicap as opposed to being completely devastating.
With that said, AvonRekaes makes an excellent point. The healing rules apply to PCs. NPCs are affected as you wish them to be affected. As such, even if you don't have them die in a minute, I could easily see the idea that normal people do waste away in the Mournland - whether it's psychosomatic as SD suggests, purely physical, or both, that the old-school commoner can't heal from NORMAL injuries and will slowly have hope and strength sapped away... and that this doesn't affect warforged.
So in terms of healing surges, warforged aren't affected... but when it comes to NPCs and looking beyond healing surges, I'd personally give warforged a further edge over normal humans.