Disclaimer: this is work in progress. :-) Feel free to criticize and/or steal some ideas.
There is one feat per Mark per tier: Mark in Heroic, Greater Mark in Paragon (each has the relevant Mark feat as prerequisite) and Siberys Mark in Epic (each has the relevant Greater Mark feat as prerequisite).
When those feats give options, the player gets to decide each time they use the ability whether to use one or more of these options. This decision must be made before the attack roll, if any.
Comments on the design
(Go look at the Marks below and come back here if you're interested!)
The design goal is to make them:
They are also meant to fit in well with the Dragonmarked PPs, except the Kundarak's Ghorad'din which are explicitly presented as breakers rather creators of wards.
Design guidelines:
But as always guidelines are made to be broken.
I realize the new Marks are complex, but that suits my tastes.
I found the 4E Dragonmarks a bit bland ("+1 to this or that"), so I tried to blend in the good points of 3.5E and 4E Dragonmarks.
The design goal is to make them:
- cool
- usable by most characters no matter their build. They generally use Minor actions so that they won't interfere with attacks and movement.
- balanced: none of the powers deal damage ; they try to achieve effects that differ from what existing classes can do. Most effects last 2 rounds at the most so they won't ruin an encounter. They have few keywords and thus can't interact too unpredictably with other abilities.
They are also meant to fit in well with the Dragonmarked PPs, except the Kundarak's Ghorad'din which are explicitly presented as breakers rather creators of wards.
Design guidelines:
- the Mark feat grants the use of some rituals, a minor bonus and the use of 2 encounter powers (only one can be used in a given encounter: the inspiration here comes from the Drow racial powers).
- the Greater Mark feat lets you use each power once per encounter and upgrades the powers either permanently or as a 1/day option.
- the Siberys Mark upgrades the powers again and sometimes grants another minor bonus.
But as always guidelines are made to be broken.
I realize the new Marks are complex, but that suits my tastes.
I found the 4E Dragonmarks a bit bland ("+1 to this or that"), so I tried to blend in the good points of 3.5E and 4E Dragonmarks.[sblock Least Mark of Hospitality, Scribing and Sentinel (the last looks a bit complex for its size though)]
[/sblock] [sblock Lesser or Greater Mark of ? and Aberrant mark]
[/sblock][sblock Siberys Mark of Warding]
[/sblock]Noted, but I can still imagine it getting denser so I'll only adapt the current text a little.
I'd make it writhe around the body and perhaps detach partially if it was my character and I was in a mood for flashy things.
Actually, I like the bit about detatching a little. A character in Son of Khyber does something similar whenever he uses the most powerful ability of his dragonmark. I think that imagery fits.
- The Siberys Mark of Passage now reduces the penalty to attack from running to -1 (stealing Paulos' idea for the Apotheosis): I like the thought of the Orien heirs as blurs running around the battlefield.
In exchange, Quick Step does not increase to 4 squares: 3sq is plenty already for a minor action and there are tons of teleport boosters if one wants to make it better. - added scaling to Storm's basic benefit (Paulos' suggestion)
- changed Warding's basic benefit to +1 AC until BONT when using Second Wind or Total Defense. The previous benefit was way too situational, and this one 1) favors dwarves 2) is somewhat related to the benefit of the original feat.
I think I'll change one of the Warding powers at some point. - added some all level 30 benefits to the ED, many of them lifted/adapted from other EDs (I mentioned the source). I don't know how definitive these will be, but for now I like most of them and they fit fairly well. My only concern is that they sometimes invalidate existing powers (gaining a fly speed makes your other flight powers redundant).
If there are Marks that you like more than others I'm interested to know the reasons, preferably with a focus on a mechanics rather than flavour (but I like to think they're intertwined).
Thanks for the pictures Paulos ; I should have reserved more posts at the beginning to add this kind of resource.
I love the Planeshaper feature and have always wished the rest of the ED was more attractive, now you've made it very attractive by attatching that to the Mark of Making. It does make Blockade redundant however.
The Storm Apotheosis sounds very awesome, but is it perhaps too effective? Essentially, by turning all your damage into lightning and thunder, you can pierce all resistance (except resist all and immunity) of targets in your aura. On second thought however, they only lose resistance if they enter the aura or start there, so the PC couldn't move the aura over them and then attack, I suppose. Although 10 is still a pretty big chunk of the battlefield. (how big are level 30 encounter areas?)
As for Mark of Storm falling benefit, I think that paragon or epic benefit could be "never take damage from a a fall and always land on your feet" It may seem powerful, but you can get that from various items by level 13 (Winged Boots (14), Davros Elden's Aerial step (13), Ring of Flight (20), Airstriders (25) etc.) Although "Feather Touch" feature of the Wind-rider PP gives Feather Fall as an encounter power.
The gliding power I spoke of that's not as powerful, is the property of the Winged Bracers, for reference.
Wow, I do like that ED even more now. Although I'd like to know who really gets to benefit from the level 30 feature in real games. Way to go sifting through other EDs options for ones that really seem to fit the flavor of the various marks.
Yay, I agree: the level 30 feature are like delicious-looking candy... that you know you'll never have.
I love the Planeshaper feature and have always wished the rest of the ED was more attractive, now you've made it very attractive by attatching that to the Mark of Making. It does make Blockade redundant however.
I thought about it, but it's not quite the case: the ED feature creates permanent blocks, while in some cases you may wish only temporary cover (that doesn't block your 10x10 corridor forever), or a bridge that others can't follow you across, or... One could almost make a platform game out of this: use the right kind of block at the right place to finish the level. ;)
The Storm Apotheosis sounds very awesome, but is it perhaps too effective? Essentially, by turning all your damage into lightning and thunder, you can pierce all resistance (except resist all and immunity) of targets in your aura. On second thought however, they only lose resistance if they enter the aura or start there, so the PC couldn't move the aura over them and then attack, I suppose. Although 10 is still a pretty big chunk of the battlefield. (how big are level 30 encounter areas?)
I haven't played in Epic at all yet so I won't be the best judge of balance, but it seems fine to me.
There are many other ways to avoid resistances in Epic (feats like Irresistible Flame or Paladin's Truth, class features like the Sorcerer's, items, ...).
Plus it synergizes very nicely with the PP and the level 26 power.
As for Mark of Storm falling benefit, I think that paragon or epic benefit could be "never take damage from a a fall and always land on your feet" It may seem powerful, but you can get that from various items by level 13 (Winged Boots (14), Davros Elden's Aerial step (13), Ring of Flight (20), Airstriders (25) etc.) Although "Feather Touch" feature of the Wind-rider PP gives Feather Fall as an encounter power.
Your last remark is right on the mark: that's why I'm not expanding the benefit. It still allows some cool moves (jumping from a not-too-tall building, ...).
Plus I have to go back and forth: I tend to want to give out too much, so I come back later and prune some of it, then begin anew...
Changelog - 08/13/2010 (part 2):
- added Death to the ED. I'm not completely satisfied with the level 26 power ; not that it matters much since I doubt anyone will actually ever use it!
- changed the CA that Corner the Prey granted to offer +2 to attack as an alternative since the Finding PP grants CA already (but Rogues might want to keep the CA).
I've started to think about a Death PP.
I'd still recommend something like the Winged Bracers for Mark of Storm, but I'm waiting to see if you come up with something good in place of the Wind Wall. I think if you're worried about getting too close to the gith power, you could do like genasi resistance boost feats where it either grants fly, or if you already get flight from somewhere else, it could increase flight distance by 2, or not grant OAs on a limited basis.
I understand that its easier to want to put cool stuff, so thanks for being the bad guy. Do you have any thoughts for Siberys shards which traditionally are used to amplify the dragonmark powers? For instance, the Çannith Creation Forges required an operator with not only the Mark of Making, but a sufficient Siberys Shard to amplify the power of the mark and thus power the forge. They're usually made into devices or tools for such amplification I believe. Could be interesting.
Just curious what your thinking was for dropping the second "dark scythe" property of the Death ED to only an encounter power. I'm intrigued by aberrant marks as well, but, like you said, who knows if anybody would actually use them.
That ED doesn't have a "0 HP" feature whereas HoS does. Plus the level 30 also triggers from your killing enemies.
I'd still recommend something like the Winged Bracers for Mark of Storm, but I'm waiting to see if you come up with something good in place of the Wind Wall. I think if you're worried about getting too close to the gith power, you could do like genasi resistance boost feats where it either grants fly, or if you already get flight from somewhere else, it could increase flight distance by 2, or not grant OAs on a limited basis.
I finally looked at the bracers: it's an interesting idea. I could see integrating something like that in the basic benefit as well.
I'm still thinking about it all... Sometimes things click together fast, sometimes they take longer.
I understand that its easier to want to put cool stuff, so thanks for being the bad guy. Do you have any thoughts for Siberys shards which traditionally are used to amplify the dragonmark powers? For instance, the Çannith Creation Forges required an operator with not only the Mark of Making, but a sufficient Siberys Shard to amplify the power of the mark and thus power the forge. They're usually made into devices or tools for such amplification I believe. Could be interesting.
Very intriguing! I don't think I'll explore those possibilities for now, but feel free to post any ideas you might have!
I could see some shards passively improving an existing Dragonmark power and others creating a different effect when you expand your use of an encounter power. I'd need to re-read the 3.5E shards...
Changelog:
- Greater Mark is not a prereq for the ED anymore. If you have it, you gain the +2 to a score ; if you don't, you gain the Mark and Greater Mark feats instead. That's one of the solutions I mentioned earlier - feel free to be opinionated about it.
- the level 21 feature lets you recharge a dragonmark power when you first become bloodied... kinda like a dragon. In counterpart it doesn't take an action anymore (I suspect minor actions can be at a premium in epic).
- Death PP is up - a preliminary version.
- reformatted the main posts so that they're easier to browse
- introduced Updraft as a Mark of Storm power.
Waiting for you comments, Paulos. ;)
Nice! I've been eagerly awaiting this change, jumping on it in anticipation even before my Google Reader subscription registered the change.
I like the attempt toward a different 'feel' of flight power, unlike other flight options available. This one probably allows unforeseen strategic uses in and out of combat. I believe it is limited enough to not be overpowered in heroic while likewise still useful in paragon. (I don't know anything about epic, but the double speed and passengers seems a fitting way to scale its utility. Likewise many items, powers can increase flight speed, but would they apply to this power?
I do like the no OAs on ascension, and if used wisely can be similar to a decent teleport or long shift. I'm sure my players would run into the situation of wanting to insert an attack either at the apex of the move before floating down, or somewhere throughout the drift down. I wonder if that can be integrated, or if it should be kept as an isolated move that must be resolved before adding extra actions. If not inserting an attack, I can see wanting to do other minor things throughout the movement, like grabbing a ledge or item, or integrating either an upward or downward charge. My particular PC joining the Lyrandar ranks is a melee-only earthwarden, so I'm sure she will think of Updraft as a tool for reaching flying targets once per encounter.
My first major question concerns ceilings. While Updraft is great for 3D mobility situations, and will allow about 3 squares horizontal movement overall given enough altitude allowance (And lots of possibilities if you Updraft yourself over a ledge, thereby basically gaining a semi-unlimited natural paragliding ability), but I wonder how useful Updraft will be a majority of the time, which probably will be in a typical 'dungeon' environment, assuming standard 10' ceilings. Up 2 without OAs but then down and over 1 will still provoke OAs from all adjacent enemies, and will turn out to be basically the same as moving 1 square, or shifting without the OA-protection. I don't know what the answer to this is, because allowing the updraft to 'follow the wall' i.e. horizontal movement in place of vertical when against a vertical obstruction might be too powerful or too similar to standard flight... Then again, it could be interesting in its own ways, if used creatively.
Those are my immediate reflections. I look forward to further discussion.
First, note that I still consider it a draft.
- Items improving flight could apply; it depends on how they're worded. Any example?
- Attack at the apex: sounds like a good idea. My first thought was to hand a penalty to the attack to constrain its power (and to imitate Levitate some), but I figure you'll grant an OA if you don't use a reach weapon (or daze the creature with your attack), so that's probably balance enough.
I'll have to think on whether it's appropriate for Heroic... likely so. - Other actions: grabbing a ledge sounds like a given to me. Or is it defined somewhere in a way that's incompatible with the power? At worst I could see making it an Acrobatics check.
Grabbing an item might be trickier, and I think that's better left to the DM: it could be an attack, or a Thievery check, or a generic Dexterity check...
Upward charge: that would be like attacking at the apex.
Downward charge: I don't see it, since you're floating down. - I thought about dungeons as well, but I am lucky enough to have DMs that make dungeons with very varied rooms and interesting terrain, so that I didn't think 10ft ceilings would be the norm. I can make the horizontal distance moved half the vertical one rounded-up, so that with 15ft ceilings you'll get more mileage (then you can petition the dungeon architects to make bigger ceilings!), but I can see it wouldn't quite solve the problem.
This requires more reflection. Though luckily in Heroic as long as one of the powers is useful then the Mark works. In Paragon there's always Wind Wall once per day...
Your idea does make me think I could add running on walls to the Passage power: yummy.
I hadn't searched for feats related to falling: well, there exists one, Airspur Windrider, and the Mark is way better. But that's fine because it's rather underpowered.
I do think wallwalking would be good and fitting for Passage, it's offered to shifters as a paragon racial feat, or via the feet slot item.
I think my biggest concern with attacking/actions during the updraft is that I believe RAW would force resolution to the whole Move action before other actions could be taken, unless otherwise specified. Just like you can't make a standard action attack in the middle of walking 6 squares, you either put the standard (or minor to pick up item, Healing Word, etc.) action before the Move or after. Given that updraft is a Move action, I figured specific allowances would have to be noted otherwise other actions would have to precede or follow the entire resolved movement.
I suppose for increasing fly speed I was thinking of the original (ECG) Mark of Storm "You gain a +1 bonus to speed when flying," and the Genasi Windrider feat, "You gain a +1 feat bonus to speed when you are manifesting windsoul or watersoul. When flying, you hover."
I do like the option of Wind Wall once a day if needed. Way to keep your earlier work valuable. =)
And horizontal = 1/2 vertical rounded up sounds like a good compromise, although it varies from 4e's usual 'round down' standard.
As for ceilings, I wonder how the epic "2xSpeed" would play out. How often are there 60'-70' ceilings. (besides cathedrals and exteriors) Nevertheless, it's still a cool image and you can easily split it among allies. So I guess it's effective.
Good responses, and of course it's a draft (nice pun), and yes I'm very interested in how you were going to tackle the Storm flight bit.
Hahaha! You know, the pun was actually unintended.
I do think wallwalking would be good and fitting for Passage, it's offered to shifters as a paragon racial feat, or via the feet slot item.
Wow, thanks for the tip! I had started adding awkward wording about walking on walls, and checking out those showed me that I need only mention a climb speed.
I think my biggest concern with attacking/actions during the updraft is that I believe RAW would force resolution to the whole Move action before other actions could be taken, unless otherwise specified. Just like you can't make a standard action attack in the middle of walking 6 squares, you either put the standard (or minor to pick up item, Healing Word, etc.) action before the Move or after. Given that updraft is a Move action, I figured specific allowances would have to be noted otherwise other actions would have to precede or follow the entire resolved movement.
I agree with the need for specific wording to allow attacks, but when it comes to something small like grabbing an item, I think it would be allowed by a reasonable DM (it should be doable while jumping as well for instance).
I suppose for increasing fly speed I was thinking of the original (ECG) Mark of Storm "You gain a +1 bonus to speed when flying," and the Genasi Windrider feat, "You gain a +1 feat bonus to speed when you are manifesting windsoul or watersoul. When flying, you hover."
Something similar to Mark of Storm would probably apply ; Stormrider would apply as well but would be counter-productive: you cease to fly at the end of the move action, so you can't hover anymore.
As for ceilings, I wonder how the epic "2xSpeed" would play out. How often are there 60'-70' ceilings. (besides cathedrals and exteriors) Nevertheless, it's still a cool image and you can easily split it among allies. So I guess it's effective.
Epic dungeons should have cliffs and deep caverns and so on... So you'd get to fly up a cliff while your companions have to climb. ;)
This does bring a corner case to mind: maybe I should limit the falling distance so you can't use Updraft to jump down a cliff (making the basic benefit somewhat redundant) ; I'll think on it.
My current thinking on the ceiling problem is: too bad. I suspect you won't like it, but while I try to make powers generally useful, they will always be somewhat situational. Take Finding's Unescapable Hunter: sometimes it will be worthless, sometimes great.
Updraft has enough out-of-combat utility that I don't feel too bad leaving it that way. But I may yet change my mind...