Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hobson1975 Jul 16, 2008 17:00:10	What are folks thoughts on how to convert the Mournland to 4E given the healing surges? I was thinking of these options: *Healing surges and spells with healing keyword only return 1/2 what they would normally *No spells w/ the healing keyword work - healing surges work OK What have other folks done? Other thoughts?
#2 need_a_life Jul 16, 2008 17:19:37	Well... I'm partial to letting people use healing surges and second wind and all that as normal. No potions or raise dead, though. However (and you knew it was coming), the Mournlands will be the single most nasty place on the material plane and even rivalling a lot of the other planes. Why? Because things in there don't have to make sense. There's living spells flying around, people who are partially petrified and monsters found nowhere else. Physical claws that damage your mind, and drinking water that turns into acidic poison as you are drinking it. And then the sky catches fire. Again. And you can't find your way out whenever you want either. The Mist guards its prey hungrily, requiring impressive Endurance checks to make it through alive.
#3 hobson1975 Jul 16, 2008 17:28:04	what are your thoughts on healing magic?
#4 Cutlass Jul 16, 2008 17:36:47	Natural healing does not occur in the Mournland, and spells and spell-like effects of the healing subschool do not work. Translating that into 4E gives me the impression that healing surges would not work. They're 4E's equivalent of "natural" healing. Ditto for recovering all your hit points when you sleep. The vast majority of healing magic is also ineffective. On the plus side, a Paladin's "Lay on Hands" ability is specified as being able to work, and there was some sort of wine/potion available that would also help (can't find the details right now). But the bottom line is that the Mournland is dangerous. Life, such as it is in the Mournland, is likely to be nasty, brutish and short. Do not enter unless you're a warforged and or have a Paladin in the party and lots of the wine mentioned (I'll hunt for details on it later).
#5 nephallim Jul 16, 2008 18:18:11	I'd have healing surges and second wind work as normal...until you're bloodied. Once bloodied you can't bring yourself above bloodied, by any means, while in the Mournland.
#6 lord_tirian Jul 16, 2008 19:58:36	Another very simple solution is: As long as you're in the Mournland, you cannot regain Healing Surges. This basically means you have a single day's worth of healing power - be careful with that, very careful, as the Mournland as pretty barren terrain will probably suck out more Surges easily. And if you subscribe to the more abstract hit point definition, the hp in the surges are basically your reserves to avoid getting hit - you still have them, you just cannot replenish them, because you cannot truly rest and recuperate in the Mournlands. Cheers, LT.
#7 mystrich Jul 16, 2008 20:53:18	I'd say healing surges half. Not sure about healing powers though. I'd say they don't work (the healing part at least). But that makes a huge hit to healer types compared to other classes. Perhaps anytime a character is affected by something, whether their own choice, a healing power, or a potion, they instead spend 2 healing surges. If an effect works as though they had used a healing surge, they must spend 1 to gain the benefit. Lord Tirian's solution would also make sense. And I actually rather like the idea, although it would make it a bit extreme.
#8 Cutlass Jul 16, 2008 21:17:59	Goodberrry Wine ... A jug of the wine contains 5 doses, and each dose cures 8 points of damage as well as provides nourishment as if it were a normal meal for a Medium creature. An imbiber benefits from only one dose in a single 8-hour period. ... Obviously implementing this is going to depend on how people want to handle healing in the Mournland in the first place. Taking the view I have already expressed I would say one dose of the wine would let the character use one healing surge. Other people's mileage may vary.
#9 mystrich Jul 16, 2008 23:00:07	Obviously implementing this is going to depend on how people want to handle healing in the Mournland in the first place. Taking the view I have already expressed I would say one dose of the wine would let the character use one healing surge. Other people's mileage may vary. But, there is no such thing as a goodberry spell anymore, therefore, there is no more goodberry wine.
#10 lord_tirian Jul 17, 2008 5:55:18	But, there is no such thing as a goodberry spell anymore, therefore, there is no more goodberry wine. Then just male a magic item called goodberry wine. And say it's called after some berries only growing in the Eldeen Reaches, and only druids learn the secret of making wine from the goodberries growing there. In my solution (don't regain surges), the wine would allow you to regain some surges during an extended rest, probably depending on the potency of the wine (as in healing potency! ;) ). Cheers, LT.
#11 hobson1975 Jul 17, 2008 12:28:20	Thanks folks. That gives me some good ideas to go with.
#12 That_Blasted_Somoflange Jul 17, 2008 15:50:55	Then just male a magic item called goodberry wine. And say it's called after some berries only growing in the Eldeen Reaches Nobody is going near my eldeen reaches to pick my goodberries.:P sorry.. couldn't resist. I'll kick myself from the forum now.
#13 ChrisTheS Jul 22, 2008 11:32:21	An easier way would be to say that you can't spend your healing surges to heal yourself in the Mournland. That locks out most healing powers, except those that say "as if you had spent a healing surge" (and thus, paladins can still use lay on hands to heal themselves and others because the surge is spent to power the ability, not to directly heal). Also it means that you still have them available for rituals that have a healing surge cost. --- As an addendum to this rule, you could say that any time you spend your own healing surges, you gain temporary hit points instead of permanent. That way leaders don't lose as large a chunk of their effectiveness.
#14 anthonyj Jul 22, 2008 12:50:20	It's important to ask yourself "what would be fun?". In 3e, a party can keep going through a couple of modest fights without any healing. In 4e, that's no longer true. Also, there are a bunch of powers in 4e that allow spending healing surges but are not magical healing -- does Inspiring Word work in the Mournlands? I would tend to just say that in the Mournlands, you don't recover healing surges with an extended rest.
#15 mystrich Jul 22, 2008 12:58:42	This raises a better question, how do they explain the Mournland being a paradise for Warforged? W/f didn't need healing, since it was only half as effective on them. If it's just as debilitating for them, it doesn't seem as great.
#16 missekat Jul 22, 2008 13:41:42	I kinda like the whole goodberry wine thingy.. can jst imagine the whole patry getting smashed on wine during and after a great fight. Hehehe..
#17 m4kitsu Jul 22, 2008 18:10:14	I like the idea of creatures not regaining healing surges in the Mournlands. In addition to being a good replication of the 3.5 rules, it gives the right feel: you don't truly rest within the mists, and simply being in the place is taxing on the body and mind. For Warforged, being creatures of an essentially different nature than most of Eberron's denizens, I would simply rule that they do regain healing surges normally, which makes bringing a friendly warforged (particularly a Paladin) along on your trek into the mists is a good idea. It encourages PCs to avoid fighting whenever possible. The Warforged patrol might be a lite morning warmup for the PCs anywhere else, but with the party down to five surges between them and the patrol at full strength... On Goodberry Wine, simply make it that the user regains hit points as if they had spent a healing surge, make it a daily, and give a bottle five uses before it's gone.
#18 Hellcow Jul 22, 2008 23:04:00	Another very simple solution is: As long as you're in the Mournland, you cannot regain Healing Surges. This is what I've been playing with (which does NOT in any way mean that it will be what you see in the 4E ECS)... with the exception that's I'm saying it's true in MOST of the Mournland. In my opinion, nothing about the Mournland can be taken for granted, and you may find "oases" where healing is possible (although if they are static in nature, they would attract any mundane predators who have remained in the Mournland, like watering holes). But the way we've been playing it, you can spend surges normally, whether as a result of healing magic or rest. You can still use effects that heal you "as if you'd spent a surge". However, you do not regain hit points or healing surges by taking an extended rest. So instead of being an instant no-heal, it slowly saps away your energy.
#19 Vael Jul 24, 2008 13:17:55	^ This, to me seems ideal. The nature of 4e combat would make no healing seem too lethal, I prefer the draining and sapping nature of the Mournlands to be played up.
#20 davethebrave371 Jul 30, 2008 1:18:28	This is what I've been playing with (which does NOT in any way mean that it will be what you see in the 4E ECS)... with the exception that's I'm saying it's true in MOST of the Mournland. In my opinion, nothing about the Mournland can be taken for granted, and you may find "oases" where healing is possible (although if they are static in nature, they would attract any mundane predators who have remained in the Mournland, like watering holes). But the way we've been playing it, you can spend surges normally, whether as a result of healing magic or rest. You can still use effects that heal you "as if you'd spent a surge". However, you do not regain hit points or healing surges by taking an extended rest. So instead of being an instant no-heal, it slowly saps away your energy. I've gone a bit more brutal than this in my own conception of the 4e Mournland. No 4e Mournland play has happened yet, and likely won't for a long time (they're not even out of 2nd level yet, for crying out loud), but when they do, it'll be Second Wind restores full HP until you run out, then no more, but nothing with the Healing descriptor works at all, and rest does nothing. Second Wind, to me, is an action (whether in or out of combat) that reflects sheer resilience, and not magical or even natural "healing", per se, just the resolve to fight on. Anything magical or natural in nature, I thumb my nose at. The Mournland should remain something INSANELY brutal, as it was in 3.5 before Five Nations.
#21 jonci Jul 31, 2008 10:19:54	Well the nature of hit points in 3.5 and 4 differ alot making the Mournlands tricky. 3.5 your hit points are your physical health. If you reach the negatives, you've lost too much blood, bones and muscle are destroyed. In 4th, your hit points are like your physical endurance. Reaching 0 is more of having pushed yourself too far and you collapse from pain and exhaustion. Healing surges are how much you can push yourself in a single day. So if you want to describe 4th edition Mournland, you have to think along that path. So take away the idea that the Mournland prevents natural healing. Let's run on the idea that the Mournland taxes your mind and body to extremes, making regaining your strength (read HP) near impossible or impossible. Taking what I've read so far: 1. No healing surges can be used to directly heal yourself. This includes preventing spells that let you use them. However, spells that require the cost of a healing surge still work. This works better towards the idea of Paladins and their Lay of Hands, but poses a major risk for characters in lack of one. 1a. You can add in random pockets of healing fonts that allow healing surge usage as normal, sort of as described in Five Nations. But a flip side could be that some fonts will make your surges damage you in stead. 2. Healing surges can't be regained. You have as much physical endurance as you walked in with, and you can continue to push yourself until you run out of healing surges. But the taxing nature of the Mournland prevents you from regaining them as rest is impossible. 2a. You can add in the penalty that each day in the Mournland will even drain a single healing surge, making it even more dangerous to stick around. If you have no healing surges, you take damage equal to a healing surge. 2b. Random fonts could restore healing surges, as they are pockets were the effects of the Mournland are weak. Of course, bad fonts could steal them as well. This run gives some flexability for the characters, placing them on a psuedo-timer of how long they can survive the horrors of the Mournland. They won't be dependant on a Paladin or being Warforged (whom's construct body can withstand the effects of the Mournland). However, it reduces the Paladin's overall effectiveness as his Lay of Hands won't work once a character is out of healing surges. Frankly, option 2 seems the better given what is available in 4th edition. As far as I know, there aren't any extradimensional crawl-spaces/houses yet. So in lack of Rope Trick, there's no way for characters to temporarily escape the effects of the Mournland.