Adaptations( Draconic religion discussion included) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 ellorin Jul 28, 2009 7:48:25	First of all I'd like to say that I absolutely loved the ECG, but... ...now, now.When someone begins a thread like this you can feel some ranting looming, don't you? Rest assured, that's not what I was intending. It concerns those two..let's call them hangers-on from Core. Asmodeus and Lolth. I can't say that I was very happy to see them. Of course, they are barely a footnote in the book and we can definitely ignore them without missing anything important. That's a quick, easy and very respectable way out. The question is how do we use them? Hence this thread. Please add your suggestions and thoughts concerning the subject. Think of it as a challenge. Here are some of mine: On Asmodeus So we got the big A and the Nine Hells as a bonus. Are we to assume that the current situation with Baator was the same when the Sea of Siberys was created? I'm inclined to disagree(not even in Core did this occur). So, what happened? Here are some hypotheses: 1. This one retains most of the original flavour. Asmodeus and co. were once angels following the deity of their choice as the other members of their kind. Asmodeus, originally his god's (self-proclaimed) right hand fancies himself a deity, build up his power and his armies and slaughters all opposition. He becomes the absolute ruler of the plane, the faithful angels fleeing or slaughtered. Serving a deity in the core of an angel's being-what do you have when a betrayal of that principle takes place? Asmodeus and his followers lose their angelic nature and become darker, hateful creatures...almost indistinguishable from the fiends of Khyber. As for "killing" the deity...that's not going to happen. It might have been a symbolic death, shattering the deity's worship once and for all. And who would that deity be? I was thinking of the sixteenth, the Unnamed, the fallen deity of the goblin pantheon, the one whose face, name and tenets were cast down and deleted from all records. The followers of Asmodeus, acting themselves or (mainly) through unsuspecting pawns were thorough in their work...or so they think. 2. Asmodeus was once of Khyber, a prakhutu. He hungered for his master's power...but how could that be? It was when his rajah's followers were at the verge of unleashing him from his bonds that he found his chance. Asmodeus and his followers struck down the Overlord at its weakest while drawing him at an unsuspecting plane,Baator. The Overlord was caught at its weakest-still it was a titanic battle and very few of Asodeus' followers survived. Normally this would have no real point-the Overlord would simply reappear on the next day in full power. Asmodeus' eldritch machines messed with the Rajah's rebirth though. Milennia of research and carefully prepared to the last detail foul magic, combined with equally careful studying of the Valley of the fallen Rajah and the fact that they were not in the Sea of Siberysand the events that led to its creation gave Asmodeus the ability to impose his Rajah the same fate. Instead of regenerating his essence, the Rajah corrupted his place of death, becoming a second Valley of the fallen Rajah. Unchecked, it turned the whole of Baator to a nightmarish plane, with Asmodeus its absolute ruler. Some claim that Asmodeus was aided by members of the lIght of Siberys in a true unholy alliance. The few members of the light that know are filled with shame.
#2 bobiago Jul 28, 2009 8:14:26	I don't mind seeing them in the setting, but I am one who feels very free, and even enjoys, to pick and choose and change what I like. I can see how someone more faithful to canon would be upset. Asmodeus: I have always gone counter to D&D canon, eschewing the Blood War. IMC's, most demons and devils are demons. Devils are just fallen angels who are leading factions of demons in a War with Heaven (or Celestia, or the Silver City, or some idyllic place that angels come from). A bit of romanticism for well-worn Miltonian plots, perhaps, but I just loved the Hell subplots from Sandman, and wanted to have some element of the War with Heaven in my Eberron. Easy to do, even with 3.5 Eberron. My Abyss has always been deep in Khyber - it's where all of those fiends are bubbling up out of. Asmodeus and his rebellious buddies were cast down from Syrania, made a whopping big hole in Eberron somewhere, and founded Nine settlements on the edge of the Abyss. Shavarrath is a plane that is perpetually coterminous with the "Hells" and Syrania. It's main feature is a increasingly large and unbreakable siege tower made from the bones of dead angels - when it becomes large enough, the hordes of the Abyss will be able to reach the Silver City. So you have some demons following the devils and trying to wipe out the angels in Syrania, and some doing the Lords of Dust thing. The ones who want to kill something now follow the devils. The more patient ones wait for the return of the Rajahs. Conflict between the Archdevils and the Lords of Dust due to them nabbing each others resources ensues. Anyway, that's how I've always handled it. I like it, and I don't see any reason to change. If anything, canon just drifted closer to my version.
#3 bobiago Jul 28, 2009 8:26:58	Lolth is only in there as a sidebar, and as a suggestion for what people should do with her if they want to keep her. Even strict canonites should have no problem with that. My only problem with losing Lolth completely is that we have soooo many resources associated with the Spider-Drow. By that I mean minis (especially the minis!), sourcebooks, plots, NPC's. Some of these port ok to Scorpion-Drow, some ok to Umbragen. Some, like my cool Drider minis, not so much. The other thing we lose, a little bit, is portability. Vulkoori and Umbragen are pretty much limited to Xen'drik. What if you wanted Drow to come a'raidin' up out of Khyber somewhere on Khorvaire? Well, it hasn't come up for me yet because there are plenty of villains to choose from already, but that's probably where I would stick my lost cult of Spider-Drow. It will probably be a while before I tap that vein, and then probably only to appease a player who wants them in his backstory for some reason.
#4 bobiago Jul 28, 2009 8:44:46	I'm going to go ahead and add my own pet peeve, and that is the inclusion of the Dragonic Deities as anything more than a sidebar. Starting with Dragons of Eberron there is this "higher tier" of Thyr-based deities, above the Sovereign Host, that are pure pandering to the WotC source material being promoted at the time (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, Draconic Dragonness of Dragonia). Now they needed to find a way to let people use the material they were producing for the all dragon, all of the time product line in Eberron, so I understand why the deities, prestige classes, and organizations were all included in DoE. Their continued inclusion in the ECG is, I guess, just continuity. To me, we already had a perfectly good set of Dragon deities - the Sovereign Host and the three Progenitors. IMO, Bahamut should be Dol Arrah (or a legendary "real" uber-dragon from the early, early days), Tiamat a Rajah (love the way they handled her and the Talons) and the rest are an unnecessary distraction. I never shared the market's apparent affection for all things dragon, so I just work to keep them distant, mysterious, dangerous and rare.
#5 AvonRekaes Jul 28, 2009 9:36:27	I'm going to go ahead and add my own pet peeve, and that is the inclusion of the Dragonic Deities as anything more than a sidebar. Starting with Dragons of Eberron there is this "higher tier" of Thyr-based deities, above the Sovereign Host, that are pure pandering to the WotC source material being promoted at the time (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, Draconic Dragonness of Dragonia). You do realize that Dragons were always stated as worshipping the core draconic pantheon, right? It's in the original 3e Eberron Campaign Setting. Even if it was "just a sidebar", what did you think was going to happen in a book specifically written for the purpose of expanding on whatever was previously said about dragons in Eberron?
#6 Beleriphon Jul 28, 2009 17:00:37	And speaking of dragons, lets not forget that Tiamat is called out as a Demon Overlord in the ECG. That actually makes a huge amount of sense for most of evil deities in other sources, they become overlords for the Lords of Dust.
#7 Hellcow Jul 28, 2009 18:35:49	You do realize that Dragons were always stated as worshipping the core draconic pantheon, right? It's in the original 3e Eberron Campaign Setting. Even if it was "just a sidebar", what did you think was going to happen in a book specifically written for the purpose of expanding on whatever was previously said about dragons in Eberron? Whatever one thinks about using the draconic pantheon in Eberron, AvonRekaes is correct here: the pantheon was in Eberron from the very beginning. In addition to page 130 of the ECS, you have the constellations of Bahamut and Tiamat on pages 94 and 95 of the ECS. The religion of Thir wasn't an attempt to promote other books being written at the time - and I developed Thir, so I think I can say that with some confidence. Instead, it was an attempt to reconcile the ECS's statement that the dragons worshiped the pre-existing draconic pantheon with the possibility of the Sovereigns being inspired by draconic actions and the overarching myth of the Progenitors... giving the pantheon from page 130 of the ECS a relationship with these other two forces, explaining how the dragons worshiped progenitor, dragon god, AND Sovereign. So while you may see it as pandering, for my part, I see the reverse. If we said nothing at all, we would have contradicted the ECS. We COULD have completely ignored the Sovereigns and Progenitors and purely held to the original ECS statement that the dragons worship those original gods. Instead we placed those gods in context WITH the Host and the Three. Bahamut has a place in the world's mythology, but specifically ISN'T worshiped by humans, and the dragons take offense at lesser creatures worshiping these gods. So again, the goal was never "Let's make sure the PCs can use this Bahamut-based PrC." Sure, Tiamat has a role, but it's a different one from other settings; she's an overlord with equal influence over all dragons, reflecting the evil that can spring up in any of the dragons of Eberron as opposed to the chromatic vs metallic split. The other gods are as distant as any other Eberron deity, all the more so since the dragons won't be happy about a human cleric deciding to follow them. But the pantheon wasn't a new addition for DoE; instead, DoE was my effort to make some sense of something that had been in Eberron since its first sourcebook.
#8 bobiago Jul 28, 2009 19:57:20	Ah yes, the constellations. I didn't really consider that much precedent, certainly not demanding a follow-up, and would not have cared if there were no further mention. But that's cool. Like I said, I know there was a lot of dragon-themed material being released at the time, and it would have been foolish not to capitalize on that. Dragons of Eberron sold better as a title than Secrets of Argonnessen, no complaints. I don't begrudge anyone a living. I just don't care for the extra pantheon, don't need it, and don't use it. It just seems cleaner and simpler to use the Sovereigns. I like them, y'know? No offense meant.
#9 Hellcow Jul 28, 2009 20:15:55	Ah yes, the constellations. I didn't really consider that much precedent... Fair enough. As one of the creators of the world, I did. THE core book of the setting puts those names into play and says the dragons have placed them in the sky. It's not a big thing, certainly. But it's there... and having gone that far, I wanted it to make sense in the context of the world. We know the Ring of Siberys is in the sky. But the ECS gives us these constellations, and says they are draconic gods. So what's the connection between these forces and the Sovereigns? Thir serves as a bridge. It keeps the Sovereigns and Progenitors as the dominant force within the setting; the draconic gods exist, but in a role that makes them shadows in the setting, all but unknown to the humanoid races. Meanwhile, while the dragons may worship these gods, they seek to emulate the Sovereigns (page 30-31). Tiamat is the most influential of the old gods, but that's because she's not a god. Anyhow, I'm not trying to convince you to love the dragon gods, and I certainly understand your preference for leaving them out of the setting. But personally, I always want things to make sense. The dragon gods were in Eberron as a result of the ECS. I wanted to give them a role that explained their presence in the ECS while still making the Sovereigns and Progenitors a critical part of draconic society. I'm sorry it didn't do the trick for you!
#10 AvonRekaes Jul 28, 2009 20:17:39	It wouldn't have been accurate to name the book Secrets of Argonessen, though. Argonessen was just one chapter. The book's focus was the draconic presence in all the continents of the world. Or to put it simply, the book was literally about "Dragons of Eberron". (My only problem with the book was not having an official cool Eberronization for Bahamut like there was for Tiamat. Bahamut is my favorite god ever, even when I started playing way back in the beginning of 3e)
#11 bobiago Jul 28, 2009 20:47:28	Solid. The OP was asking what you do with elements of the setting you don't like, especially when it is a carryover from other non-Eberron canon and I was just speaking to that. I'm really not trying to make this about whether the Draconic Pantheon should have been added, or was intended from the start, because it's not my place to say. So, not to get even more radical on y'all, but given my controversial preferences for one Pantheon to rule them all, what do you think of Bahamut=Dol Arrah? Then you take AR's idea from the whole Eberron sun thread, and you give Eberron a Platinum colored sun. Ay? Ay?
#12 Hellcow Jul 29, 2009 4:54:10	So, not to get even more radical on y'all, but given my controversial preferences for one Pantheon to rule them all, what do you think of Bahamut=Dol Arrah? Then you take AR's idea from the whole Eberron sun thread, and you give Eberron a Platinum colored sun. Ay? Ay? Wouldn't bother me any. Though personally, I like Dol Arrah as she the red dragon she currently is... just to emphasize the fact that in Eberron, "chromatic" doesn't mean "evil". This will be my last post on the matter, then I'll stop derailing the thread. But I do want to speak to Thir one last time. With Thir, the idea was to give the dragons a different relationship to the Sovereigns than everyone else. From the very beginning, we established that the Sovereigns are sometimes considered to be ascended dragons. In the ECS this comes out in fact that the Sovereigns are sometimes depicted as dragons, and the theory is specifically called out on page 242 of the ECS - with the founder of the Library of Korranberg hoping to take Aureon's place (and later in the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant in CoS). Over time, we've actually mentioned the names of dragons who might have inspired these legends (Dularanahk, Ourelonastrix, the dracolich in the Lair of the Keeper). So the point to me is that the dragons don't see the Sovereigns as GODS. They see it as a job - something you can aspire to. They believe that if Ourelonastrix could become the Lord of Law and Lore, well, they could too. So, if Ourelonastrix potentially WAS the first Aureon... well, who did HE worship? The Progenitors are an option, but to me, the Progenitors are in a different class. Siberys is the father of all dragons, and it's the Light of Siberys, not Bahamut; but it was Siberys' death that gave birth to the first dragons, so it's odd to actually worship him. And Eberron is the world itself. Essentially, it's Gaia vs the Olympian pantheon. We respect Eberron as the mother of us all. But she's not a goddess as such; she's the world itself. And thus you have the dragon gods, the force in between. The Sovereigns are a role dragons aspire to become. They don't deny that the Sovereigns are divine, but they are essentially saints. They have dominion over lesser creatures. They ARE the gods that govern the lives of humans. But dragons themselves answer to a higher power. So a noble warrior dragon may serve in the Light of Siberys, worship Bahamut, and follow the path of the Lightkeeper, hoping to become Dol Arrah. Each of these three has its place in her life. This also can explain many myths of the Sovereigns that seem concrete in nature as opposed to pure metaphor; they are actually stories about dragons pursuing a particular Sovereign path (whether in human or dragon form), who may even have used the names of the Sovereigns when performing mighty deeds around primitive creatures (as with Ourelonastrix and the giants). Meanwhile, the dragons DON'T believe that humans can ascend to the rank of Sovereign. They don't believe that the dragon gods govern the lives of humans or take interest in their prayers. So this is a faith of interest to dragons - but there's a reason it's not on the core list of faiths for PCs in either the 3E ECS or 4E EPG. And now I'll shut up about it. ;)
#13 AvonRekaes Jul 29, 2009 9:46:04	(Just my own little addition, there, I really like how the main dragon god in Eberron is Chronepsis, rather than the usual Bahamut/Tiamat duality in most other settings.)
#14 Amaril Jul 31, 2009 20:16:15	Keith, around the time of the release of Dragons of Eberron, we spoke about how v3.5 dragonborn fit into the setting, possibly as warriors for the Light of Siberys. Recently, I've been exercising these thoughts further with ideas of the citizens of Io'Lokar being worshippers of the draconic prophecy, and potentially desiring to join the Light of Siberys, undergoing to Rite of Rebirth, which isn't a far reach according to the section of Nondragons in the Light of Siberys on page 35. However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this.
#15 Hellcow Aug 01, 2009 4:01:09	However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this. The section on Io'lokar may not be clear... but the section on Io'vakas is. If you read page 41, the yuan-ti of the city originally worshipped the Sovereigns, but turned to the direct worship of the draconic pantheon, and it was this blasphemy that resulted in the destruction of their city. The ruins of Io'vakas remain today as a reminder of the folly of those gone before. So no, the nondragons of Io'lokar do not worship the dragonic pantheon - or at least, if they do, they keep such worship VERY well hidden. The Rite of Rebirth might be performed by a lightkeeper dragon dedicated to Bahamut, but the dragonborn themselves would be expected to dedicate themselves to Dol Arrah and Siberys.
#16 Amaril Aug 01, 2009 18:36:05	The section on Io'lokar may not be clear... but the section on Io'vakas is. If you read page 41, the yuan-ti of the city originally worshipped the Sovereigns, but turned to the direct worship of the draconic pantheon, and it was this blasphemy that resulted in the destruction of their city. The ruins of Io'vakas remain today as a reminder of the folly of those gone before. Ah, yes. There it is as plain as day on page 41. :embarrass So no, the nondragons of Io'lokar do not worship the dragonic pantheon - or at least, if they do, they keep such worship VERY well hidden. That's reasonable. The Rite of Rebirth might be performed by a lightkeeper dragon dedicated to Bahamut, but the dragonborn themselves would be expected to dedicate themselves to Dol Arrah and Siberys. I think that's fair, but I think for my own campaign I might allow for the reverence of Bahamut by these nondragon warriors of the Light of Siberys as some untouchable and unattainable ideal but not as an icon of direct worship. One other restriction might be that the Rite of Rebirth would be applicable only to the 3.5 core/dragonmarked races.
#17 rauric Aug 01, 2009 19:01:25	I like Assy as just being a real powerful devil. Simple as that. The Planes needs some BBEGs besides the Daelkyr and Quori. I am cool with Lloth being an Overlord though. That just seems to fit.
#18 bobiago Aug 02, 2009 13:32:19	Keith, around the time of the release of Dragons of Eberron, we spoke about how v3.5 dragonborn fit into the setting, possibly as warriors for the Light of Siberys. Recently, I've been exercising these thoughts further with ideas of the citizens of Io'Lokar being worshippers of the draconic prophecy, and potentially desiring to join the Light of Siberys, undergoing to Rite of Rebirth, which isn't a far reach according to the section of Nondragons in the Light of Siberys on page 35. However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this. To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon?
#19 nthdegree256 Aug 02, 2009 14:30:39	Canonically, yes. They may have dragon heads and breath weapons and even wings on occasion, but they're still diminutive little short-lived humanoids.
#20 Hellcow Aug 02, 2009 17:17:06	To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon? NthDegree has it right: by canon, that is what we are saying. The doctrine of Thir is that the Sovereigns ARE gods - the lowest tier of god, perhaps, but they are gods tasked with watching over the lower races. Despite being dragon-like humanoids, the dragonborn are not dragons. A dragonborn in the Light of Siberys would surely know the name of Bahamut, and be expected to show due respect to his priests and his sign. But he shouldn't direct his prayers to Bahamut. If he's a cleric, he shouldn't invoke Bahamut; he should call upon Dol Arrah, the Sovereign who governs the same sphere. According to DoE: The dragons guard their faith as if it were a precious jewel. Some students of draconic lore claim that, behind their disdain for the prayers of lesser creatures, another rationale exists. The dragons are actually afraid that if the lesser creatures turned to the worship of the true deities, they might be judged worthy of ascension . . . ultimately stealing the dragons’ sole claim to the heavens. This leaves a variety of options. You could decide that the Draconic pantheon doesn't actually exist; there's no concrete evidence that it does. If you LIKE the Draconic pantheon, you can ignore canon and say that the dragonborn are allowed to worship them. Alternately, you could have the dragonborn paladin who has been personally called by Bahamut and who is thus EXACTLY what the dragons are described as being afraid of - a lesser creature stealing the favor of their private gods. This would anger them, but if he truly has been chosen by Bahamut, do they dare to strike at him directly? But by canon, dragonborn receive no special dispensation. They are expected to worship the Sovereigns, who again, ARE divine beings under the doctrine of Thir and possess dominion over the world. They are certainly gods fit for any little dragonborn. It's simply that the Draconic pantheon stands in the shadows behind them.
#21 bobiago Aug 02, 2009 23:46:55	Thanks Keith, I'm totally coming around to your handling of the Draconic Pantheon. Your posts in this thread have convinced me that it adds much more than it confuses, especially because the PC races are proscribed from worshipping them. What I was clarifying was that Dragonborn are included in that proscription, which it appears they are. I'm completely on board with canon now. Where's my cheese plate?
#22 Sarlax Aug 03, 2009 2:54:21	On the original topic: I like retaining as much of the existing flavor as is reasonable for injected elements, if only to prevent too much reworking and to preserve good mechanical options. While I have never quite liked Asmodeus as D&D Lucifer (an angel rebelling against the gods shouldn't be evil unless all gods are good), I recognize it's a part of the core mythology. I certainly don't want him to be an actual god, though, as that undermines some of the concepts of the divine in the game. Working with the "rogue angel" idea: I like Asmodeus being tied to the Schism that split the Sovereigns and the Dark Six. The faiths seem to have once been one, but split with the growing divide between civilization and the wild. Even in 998, the faithful seem to pray to both sets of gods. Followers of the Host still offer occasional prayers to the Dark Six, if only to appease their wrath. I can see Asmodeus as a servant of the entire pantheon who experiences a crisis of faith when the pantheon on splits. Now he can no longer simply serve "the gods" but feels forced to select a side. He might also be the cause. Another idea: given how remote the gods are in Eberron, I prefer the position that even the angels don't know they exist, but have faith just like mortals. Asmodeus might have experienced something that challenged his faith, leading him to conclude that since the gods' existence cannot be proven, they do not exist, and that the only divinity is in the angels themselves and that he, the most powerful among them, is the only true god. Another: All angels used to serve all the gods, but at the time of the schism, the different angels split and began to serve specific deities. Asmodeus took this as heresy, and created (or claimed) Baator as a place to punish the heretical angels. In his mind, Asmodeus serves the gods by punishing those whom he sees as failing to recognize the equal divinity of them all. He sends his devils (actually angels who joined him initially, or victims of his "justice" now promoted) out to capture angels who don't share his vision. *** Lolth is a trickier god. It's easy to say she's a rajah, but that makes me feel like we're uniting too many disparate Eberron elements (Eladrin are from Thelanis, captured by giants in Xen'drik, bred into elves and drow, freed by consequences of the quori invasion, etc.). It is simple, though, to say that the drow simply dug too deep into Khyber, found a rajah prison, and started worshipping Lolth that way. I'm intrigued with the possibility of tying her back to the Eladrin, though. I like the idea that eladrin are fey, in the sense of being something like fairy tale creatures, and that Thelanis is something like a realm of stories. Perhaps long ago, when they lived in that realm, the eladrin served various fey nobles, each of whom held domain over different kind of stories. Lolth could be a Lady of Monsters, a fey queen who has domain over tales of frightening things. When the eladrin were captured, enslaved, and bred by the giants, the story of Lolth persisted for some who eventually became a drow line. When the elves begin their rebellion, some drow emulate the stories from Lolth's domain. They terrorize the giants at night, poison them, lay traps for them. In this way, they hope for the giants to tell monster stories of their own - stories of small creatures they scurry in the night, trap them in webs of jungle vine, and bite them with poison. In this way, Lolth doesn't start as the Spider Queen. Rather, she is the Queen of the Drow, who are her Spiders, terrorizing the enemies of their race.
#23 Madfox11 Aug 03, 2009 6:12:24	Makes you wonder how dragons would react to PCs with epic destinies like "demigod"* and "avatar of ...". Would they deny the fact that mere mortal is clearly on its path to ascension? Would they try to stop it? Or would they assume the mortal is indeed just a mortal avatar created by the sovereign to experience mortal life once again (which in itself would disrupt the rather haughty and arrogant idea that only dragons are worthy, since why else would that deity take the form of a lesser creature)? I find this rather interesting speculations. It would give the dragons some interesting role once an Eberron campaign reaches epic level. It certainly gives it an additional cool layer of complexity compared to the core world ;) * In fact, at first we considered not allowing the epic destiny since it does not really fit Eberron setting at a first glance. After all, the Sovereigns are remote and distant. It is not clear they truely exist. If you follow the Draconic theology though, you can most definitely take this epic destinty to become the next sovereign, although that would definitely cause a stir amongst the dragons.
#24 Alas Aug 03, 2009 7:43:11	If you follow the Draconic theology though, you can most definitely take this epic destinty to become the next sovereign, although that would definitely cause a stir amongst the dragons. I'm not sure which the dragons would take worse-- the idea that a human(oid) could become a Sovereign, or that one could become something completely new.
#25 jedi123 Aug 03, 2009 9:47:22	Another idea: given how remote the gods are in Eberron, I prefer the position that even the angels don't know they exist, but have faith just like mortals. Asmodeus might have experienced something that challenged his faith, leading him to conclude that since the gods' existence cannot be proven, they do not exist, and that the only divinity is in the angels themselves and that he, the most powerful among them, is the only true god. Lolth is a trickier god. It's easy to say she's a rajah, but that makes me feel like we're uniting too many disparate Eberron elements (Eladrin are from Thelanis, captured by giants in Xen'drik, bred into elves and drow, freed by consequences of the quori invasion, etc.). It is simple, though, to say that the drow simply dug too deep into Khyber, found a rajah prison, and started worshipping Lolth that way. I'm intrigued with the possibility of tying her back to the Eladrin, though. I like the idea that eladrin are fey, in the sense of being something like fairy tale creatures, and that Thelanis is something like a realm of stories. Perhaps long ago, when they lived in that realm, the eladrin served various fey nobles, each of whom held domain over different kind of stories. Lolth could be a Lady of Monsters, a fey queen who has domain over tales of frightening things. When the eladrin were captured, enslaved, and bred by the giants, the story of Lolth persisted for some who eventually became a drow line. When the elves begin their rebellion, some drow emulate the stories from Lolth's domain. They terrorize the giants at night, poison them, lay traps for them. In this way, they hope for the giants to tell monster stories of their own - stories of small creatures they scurry in the night, trap them in webs of jungle vine, and bite them with poison. In this way, Lolth doesn't start as the Spider Queen. Rather, she is the Queen of the Drow, who are her Spiders, terrorizing the enemies of their race. I like the quoted idea for Asmodeus the best. My main problem with tying Loth to the Drow and spiders is thus: in Eberron Drow are connected to scorpions not spiders. I would be okay with a single sect of Drow (on Xen'drik, possibly somewhere else) who were corrupted by the Rajah Lolth taking to spiders, but the main Drow still are connected to scorpions. Interesting side note, anyone have idea for the reason drow are attached to scorpions? In the reading I've done I have found nothing.
#26 Madfox11 Aug 03, 2009 10:11:05	IMy main problem with tying Loth to the Drow and spiders is thus: in Eberron Drow are connected to scorpions not spiders. I would be okay with a single sect of Drow (on Xen'drik, possibly somewhere else) who were corrupted by the Rajah Lolth taking to spiders, but the main Drow still are connected to scorpions. Interesting side note, anyone have idea for the reason drow are attached to scorpions? In the reading I've done I have found nothing. Aren't there three types of main drow: scorpion, fire and darkness? The ECG actually does not mention which of those three types are the most common.
#27 jedi123 Aug 03, 2009 10:53:17	Aren't there three types of main drow: scorpion, fire and darkness? The ECG actually does not mention which of those three types are the most common. Still no spiders. I'm still waiting to get my ECG, so if that's new there that would explain why I don't remember it.
#28 AvonRekaes Aug 03, 2009 11:48:08	The vulkoori drow are the most common, I think. They're the culture most encoutnered by NPCs. The vulkoori, or "scorpion drow", are the tribal savages that live in the jungles and decaying giant ruins. They are tied to scorpions because as a culture they commonly venerate animal spirits, which are theorized to be another version of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six. The most popular among these animal spirits is Vulkoor, the Scorpion, who is said to be analogous to The Mockery. The way the drow fought against the giants followed a lot of The Mockery's teachings and tactics. Deception, poison, terror-tactics, and such, so they venerate him as a savior type figure. Though you'll find tribes that ONLY worship Vulkoor, there are others that venerate their own versions of The Sovereigns and Six along with him. As for the other types: Sulaatar (Fire) drow are more or less a specific drow tribe that remained loyal to the giants, fire giants specifically. They live in the ruins of this one fire giant culture, so they're not as widespread as the tribal drow who came from all over the giant empire. I think the only instance of Sulaatar drow being encountered cannonically by other NPCs is when the gnomes stole their elemental binding techniques, and even then it was only implied. The Umbragen (Darkenss) drow are also one specific tribe or tight collection of tribes of drow that went underground to escape the giants. Only they went too deep and ended up being targetted by a roaming daelkyr's forces. I don't think Umbragen have EVER been encountered in cannon outside of specific adventures featuring them.
#29 jedi123 Aug 04, 2009 10:54:12	The vulkoori drow are the most common, I think. They're the culture most encoutnered by NPCs. The vulkoori, or "scorpion drow", are the tribal savages that live in the jungles and decaying giant ruins. They are tied to scorpions because as a culture they commonly venerate animal spirits, which are theorized to be another version of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six. The most popular among these animal spirits is Vulkoor, the Scorpion, who is said to be analogous to The Mockery. The way the drow fought against the giants followed a lot of The Mockery's teachings and tactics. Deception, poison, terror-tactics, and such, so they venerate him as a savior type figure. Though you'll find tribes that ONLY worship Vulkoor, there are others that venerate their own versions of The Sovereigns and Six along with him. As for the other types: Sulaatar (Fire) drow are more or less a specific drow tribe that remained loyal to the giants, fire giants specifically. They live in the ruins of this one fire giant culture, so they're not as widespread as the tribal drow who came from all over the giant empire. I think the only instance of Sulaatar drow being encountered cannonically by other NPCs is when the gnomes stole their elemental binding techniques, and even then it was only implied. The Umbragen (Darkenss) drow are also one specific tribe or tight collection of tribes of drow that went underground to escape the giants. Only they went too deep and ended up being targetted by a roaming daelkyr's forces. I don't think Umbragen have EVER been encountered in cannon outside of specific adventures featuring them. Thank you that is quite helpful.
#30 AvonRekaes Aug 04, 2009 11:25:35	No problem! :D If you want to know more about the vulkoori and sulaatar (I know I'm spelling that wrong, I just know it) drow, you should read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy. The second book, the Gates of Night, involve them fairly prominently.
#31 jedi123 Aug 04, 2009 11:34:32	No problem! :D If you want to know more about the vulkoori and sulaatar (I know I'm spelling that wrong, I just know it) drow, you should read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy. The second book, the Gates of Night, involve them fairly prominently. May very well do that if I can find them. I just finished Queen of stone and am about to read Storm Dragon.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

ellorin

Jul 28, 2009 7:48:25

First of all I'd like to say that I absolutely loved the ECG, but...

...now, now.When someone begins a thread like this you can feel some ranting looming, don't you? Rest assured, that's not what I was intending. It concerns those two..let's call them hangers-on from Core. Asmodeus and Lolth.

I can't say that I was very happy to see them. Of course, they are barely a footnote in the book and we can definitely ignore them without missing anything important. That's a quick, easy and very respectable way out. The question is how do we use them? Hence this thread. Please add your suggestions and thoughts concerning the subject. Think of it as a challenge.

Here are some of mine:

On Asmodeus

So we got the big A and the Nine Hells as a bonus. Are we to assume that the current situation with Baator was the same when the Sea of Siberys was created? I'm inclined to disagree(not even in Core did this occur). So, what happened? Here are some hypotheses:

1. This one retains most of the original flavour. Asmodeus and co. were once angels following the deity of their choice as the other members of their kind. Asmodeus, originally his god's (self-proclaimed) right hand fancies himself a deity, build up his power and his armies and slaughters all opposition. He becomes the absolute ruler of the plane, the faithful angels fleeing or slaughtered. Serving a deity in the core of an angel's being-what do you have when a betrayal of that principle takes place? Asmodeus and his followers lose their angelic nature and become darker, hateful creatures...almost indistinguishable from the fiends of Khyber.

As for "killing" the deity...that's not going to happen. It might have been a symbolic death, shattering the deity's worship once and for all.

And who would that deity be? I was thinking of the sixteenth, the Unnamed, the fallen deity of the goblin pantheon, the one whose face, name and tenets were cast down and deleted from all records. The followers of Asmodeus, acting themselves or (mainly) through unsuspecting pawns were thorough in their work...or so they think.

2. Asmodeus was once of Khyber, a prakhutu. He hungered for his master's power...but how could that be? It was when his rajah's followers were at the verge of unleashing him from his bonds that he found his chance. Asmodeus and his followers struck down the Overlord at its weakest while drawing him at an unsuspecting plane,Baator.

The Overlord was caught at its weakest-still it was a titanic battle and very few of Asodeus' followers survived. Normally this would have no real point-the Overlord would simply reappear on the next day in full power. Asmodeus' eldritch machines messed with the Rajah's rebirth though. Milennia of research and carefully prepared to the last detail foul magic, combined with equally careful studying of the Valley of the fallen Rajah and the fact that they were not in the Sea of Siberysand the events that led to its creation gave Asmodeus the ability to impose his Rajah the same fate. Instead of regenerating his essence, the Rajah corrupted his place of death, becoming a second Valley of the fallen Rajah. Unchecked, it turned the whole of Baator to a nightmarish plane, with Asmodeus its absolute ruler.

Some claim that Asmodeus was aided by members of the lIght of Siberys in a true unholy alliance. The few members of the light that know are filled with shame.

bobiago

Jul 28, 2009 8:14:26

I don't mind seeing them in the setting, but I am one who feels very free, and even enjoys, to pick and choose and change what I like. I can see how someone more faithful to canon would be upset.

Asmodeus: I have always gone counter to D&D canon, eschewing the Blood War. IMC's, most demons and devils are demons. Devils are just fallen angels who are leading factions of demons in a War with Heaven (or Celestia, or the Silver City, or some idyllic place that angels come from). A bit of romanticism for well-worn Miltonian plots, perhaps, but I just loved the Hell subplots from Sandman, and wanted to have some element of the War with Heaven in my Eberron.

Easy to do, even with 3.5 Eberron. My Abyss has always been deep in Khyber - it's where all of those fiends are bubbling up out of. Asmodeus and his rebellious buddies were cast down from Syrania, made a whopping big hole in Eberron somewhere, and founded Nine settlements on the edge of the Abyss. Shavarrath is a plane that is perpetually coterminous with the "Hells" and Syrania. It's main feature is a increasingly large and unbreakable siege tower made from the bones of dead angels - when it becomes large enough, the hordes of the Abyss will be able to reach the Silver City.

So you have some demons following the devils and trying to wipe out the angels in Syrania, and some doing the Lords of Dust thing. The ones who want to kill something now follow the devils. The more patient ones wait for the return of the Rajahs. Conflict between the Archdevils and the Lords of Dust due to them nabbing each others resources ensues.

Anyway, that's how I've always handled it. I like it, and I don't see any reason to change. If anything, canon just drifted closer to my version.

bobiago

Jul 28, 2009 8:26:58

Lolth is only in there as a sidebar, and as a suggestion for what people should do with her if they want to keep her. Even strict canonites should have no problem with that.

My only problem with losing Lolth completely is that we have soooo many resources associated with the Spider-Drow. By that I mean minis (especially the minis!), sourcebooks, plots, NPC's. Some of these port ok to Scorpion-Drow, some ok to Umbragen. Some, like my cool Drider minis, not so much.

The other thing we lose, a little bit, is portability. Vulkoori and Umbragen are pretty much limited to Xen'drik. What if you wanted Drow to come a'raidin' up out of Khyber somewhere on Khorvaire? Well, it hasn't come up for me yet because there are plenty of villains to choose from already, but that's probably where I would stick my lost cult of Spider-Drow. It will probably be a while before I tap that vein, and then probably only to appease a player who wants them in his backstory for some reason.

bobiago

Jul 28, 2009 8:44:46

I'm going to go ahead and add my own pet peeve, and that is the inclusion of the Dragonic Deities as anything more than a sidebar.

Starting with Dragons of Eberron there is this "higher tier" of Thyr-based deities, above the Sovereign Host, that are pure pandering to the WotC source material being promoted at the time (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, Draconic Dragonness of Dragonia). Now they needed to find a way to let people use the material they were producing for the all dragon, all of the time product line in Eberron, so I understand why the deities, prestige classes, and organizations were all included in DoE. Their continued inclusion in the ECG is, I guess, just continuity.

To me, we already had a perfectly good set of Dragon deities - the Sovereign Host and the three Progenitors. IMO, Bahamut should be Dol Arrah (or a legendary "real" uber-dragon from the early, early days), Tiamat a Rajah (love the way they handled her and the Talons) and the rest are an unnecessary distraction. I never shared the market's apparent affection for all things dragon, so I just work to keep them distant, mysterious, dangerous and rare.

AvonRekaes

Jul 28, 2009 9:36:27

I'm going to go ahead and add my own pet peeve, and that is the inclusion of the Dragonic Deities as anything more than a sidebar.

Starting with Dragons of Eberron there is this "higher tier" of Thyr-based deities, above the Sovereign Host, that are pure pandering to the WotC source material being promoted at the time (Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, Draconic Dragonness of Dragonia).

You do realize that Dragons were always stated as worshipping the core draconic pantheon, right? It's in the original 3e Eberron Campaign Setting. Even if it was "just a sidebar", what did you think was going to happen in a book specifically written for the purpose of expanding on whatever was previously said about dragons in Eberron?

Beleriphon

Jul 28, 2009 17:00:37

And speaking of dragons, lets not forget that Tiamat is called out as a Demon Overlord in the ECG. That actually makes a huge amount of sense for most of evil deities in other sources, they become overlords for the Lords of Dust.

Hellcow

Jul 28, 2009 18:35:49

You do realize that Dragons were always stated as worshipping the core draconic pantheon, right? It's in the original 3e Eberron Campaign Setting. Even if it was "just a sidebar", what did you think was going to happen in a book specifically written for the purpose of expanding on whatever was previously said about dragons in Eberron?

Whatever one thinks about using the draconic pantheon in Eberron, AvonRekaes is correct here: the pantheon was in Eberron from the very beginning. In addition to page 130 of the ECS, you have the constellations of Bahamut and Tiamat on pages 94 and 95 of the ECS. The religion of Thir wasn't an attempt to promote other books being written at the time - and I developed Thir, so I think I can say that with some confidence. Instead, it was an attempt to reconcile the ECS's statement that the dragons worshiped the pre-existing draconic pantheon with the possibility of the Sovereigns being inspired by draconic actions and the overarching myth of the Progenitors... giving the pantheon from page 130 of the ECS a relationship with these other two forces, explaining how the dragons worshiped progenitor, dragon god, AND Sovereign.

So while you may see it as pandering, for my part, I see the reverse. If we said nothing at all, we would have contradicted the ECS. We COULD have completely ignored the Sovereigns and Progenitors and purely held to the original ECS statement that the dragons worship those original gods. Instead we placed those gods in context WITH the Host and the Three. Bahamut has a place in the world's mythology, but specifically ISN'T worshiped by humans, and the dragons take offense at lesser creatures worshiping these gods. So again, the goal was never "Let's make sure the PCs can use this Bahamut-based PrC." Sure, Tiamat has a role, but it's a different one from other settings; she's an overlord with equal influence over all dragons, reflecting the evil that can spring up in any of the dragons of Eberron as opposed to the chromatic vs metallic split. The other gods are as distant as any other Eberron deity, all the more so since the dragons won't be happy about a human cleric deciding to follow them.

But the pantheon wasn't a new addition for DoE; instead, DoE was my effort to make some sense of something that had been in Eberron since its first sourcebook.

bobiago

Jul 28, 2009 19:57:20

Ah yes, the constellations. I didn't really consider that much precedent, certainly not demanding a follow-up, and would not have cared if there were no further mention. But that's cool. Like I said, I know there was a lot of dragon-themed material being released at the time, and it would have been foolish not to capitalize on that. Dragons of Eberron sold better as a title than Secrets of Argonnessen, no complaints. I don't begrudge anyone a living.

I just don't care for the extra pantheon, don't need it, and don't use it. It just seems cleaner and simpler to use the Sovereigns. I like them, y'know? No offense meant.

Hellcow

Jul 28, 2009 20:15:55

Ah yes, the constellations. I didn't really consider that much precedent...

Fair enough. As one of the creators of the world, I did. THE core book of the setting puts those names into play and says the dragons have placed them in the sky. It's not a big thing, certainly. But it's there... and having gone that far, I wanted it to make sense in the context of the world. We know the Ring of Siberys is in the sky. But the ECS gives us these constellations, and says they are draconic gods. So what's the connection between these forces and the Sovereigns?

Thir serves as a bridge. It keeps the Sovereigns and Progenitors as the dominant force within the setting; the draconic gods exist, but in a role that makes them shadows in the setting, all but unknown to the humanoid races. Meanwhile, while the dragons may worship these gods, they seek to emulate the Sovereigns (page 30-31). Tiamat is the most influential of the old gods, but that's because she's not a god.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to convince you to love the dragon gods, and I certainly understand your preference for leaving them out of the setting. But personally, I always want things to make sense. The dragon gods were in Eberron as a result of the ECS. I wanted to give them a role that explained their presence in the ECS while still making the Sovereigns and Progenitors a critical part of draconic society. I'm sorry it didn't do the trick for you!

#10

AvonRekaes

Jul 28, 2009 20:17:39

It wouldn't have been accurate to name the book Secrets of Argonessen, though. Argonessen was just one chapter. The book's focus was the draconic presence in all the continents of the world. Or to put it simply, the book was literally about "Dragons of Eberron".

(My only problem with the book was not having an official cool Eberronization for Bahamut like there was for Tiamat. Bahamut is my favorite god ever, even when I started playing way back in the beginning of 3e)

#11

bobiago

Jul 28, 2009 20:47:28

Solid. The OP was asking what you do with elements of the setting you don't like, especially when it is a carryover from other non-Eberron canon and I was just speaking to that. I'm really not trying to make this about whether the Draconic Pantheon should have been added, or was intended from the start, because it's not my place to say.

So, not to get even more radical on y'all, but given my controversial preferences for one Pantheon to rule them all, what do you think of Bahamut=Dol Arrah?

Then you take AR's idea from the whole Eberron sun thread, and you give Eberron a Platinum colored sun. Ay? Ay?

#12

Hellcow

Jul 29, 2009 4:54:10

So, not to get even more radical on y'all, but given my controversial preferences for one Pantheon to rule them all, what do you think of Bahamut=Dol Arrah?

Then you take AR's idea from the whole Eberron sun thread, and you give Eberron a Platinum colored sun. Ay? Ay?

Wouldn't bother me any. Though personally, I like Dol Arrah as she the red dragon she currently is... just to emphasize the fact that in Eberron, "chromatic" doesn't mean "evil".

This will be my last post on the matter, then I'll stop derailing the thread. But I do want to speak to Thir one last time.

With Thir, the idea was to give the dragons a different relationship to the Sovereigns than everyone else. From the very beginning, we established that the Sovereigns are sometimes considered to be ascended dragons. In the ECS this comes out in fact that the Sovereigns are sometimes depicted as dragons, and the theory is specifically called out on page 242 of the ECS - with the founder of the Library of Korranberg hoping to take Aureon's place (and later in the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant in CoS). Over time, we've actually mentioned the names of dragons who might have inspired these legends (Dularanahk, Ourelonastrix, the dracolich in the Lair of the Keeper).

So the point to me is that the dragons don't see the Sovereigns as GODS. They see it as a job - something you can aspire to. They believe that if Ourelonastrix could become the Lord of Law and Lore, well, they could too. So, if Ourelonastrix potentially WAS the first Aureon... well, who did HE worship? The Progenitors are an option, but to me, the Progenitors are in a different class. Siberys is the father of all dragons, and it's the Light of Siberys, not Bahamut; but it was Siberys' death that gave birth to the first dragons, so it's odd to actually worship him. And Eberron is the world itself. Essentially, it's Gaia vs the Olympian pantheon. We respect Eberron as the mother of us all. But she's not a goddess as such; she's the world itself. And thus you have the dragon gods, the force in between. The Sovereigns are a role dragons aspire to become. They don't deny that the Sovereigns are divine, but they are essentially saints. They have dominion over lesser creatures. They ARE the gods that govern the lives of humans. But dragons themselves answer to a higher power.

So a noble warrior dragon may serve in the Light of Siberys, worship Bahamut, and follow the path of the Lightkeeper, hoping to become Dol Arrah. Each of these three has its place in her life. This also can explain many myths of the Sovereigns that seem concrete in nature as opposed to pure metaphor; they are actually stories about dragons pursuing a particular Sovereign path (whether in human or dragon form), who may even have used the names of the Sovereigns when performing mighty deeds around primitive creatures (as with Ourelonastrix and the giants).

Meanwhile, the dragons DON'T believe that humans can ascend to the rank of Sovereign. They don't believe that the dragon gods govern the lives of humans or take interest in their prayers. So this is a faith of interest to dragons - but there's a reason it's not on the core list of faiths for PCs in either the 3E ECS or 4E EPG.

And now I'll shut up about it. ;)

#13

AvonRekaes

Jul 29, 2009 9:46:04

(Just my own little addition, there, I really like how the main dragon god in Eberron is Chronepsis, rather than the usual Bahamut/Tiamat duality in most other settings.)

#14

Amaril

Jul 31, 2009 20:16:15

Keith, around the time of the release of Dragons of Eberron, we spoke about how v3.5 dragonborn fit into the setting, possibly as warriors for the Light of Siberys.

Recently, I've been exercising these thoughts further with ideas of the citizens of Io'Lokar being worshippers of the draconic prophecy, and potentially desiring to join the Light of Siberys, undergoing to Rite of Rebirth, which isn't a far reach according to the section of Nondragons in the Light of Siberys on page 35. However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this.

#15

Hellcow

Aug 01, 2009 4:01:09

However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this.

The section on Io'lokar may not be clear... but the section on Io'vakas is. If you read page 41, the yuan-ti of the city originally worshipped the Sovereigns, but turned to the direct worship of the draconic pantheon, and it was this blasphemy that resulted in the destruction of their city. The ruins of Io'vakas remain today as a reminder of the folly of those gone before. So no, the nondragons of Io'lokar do not worship the dragonic pantheon - or at least, if they do, they keep such worship VERY well hidden. The Rite of Rebirth might be performed by a lightkeeper dragon dedicated to Bahamut, but the dragonborn themselves would be expected to dedicate themselves to Dol Arrah and Siberys.

#16

Amaril

Aug 01, 2009 18:36:05

The section on Io'lokar may not be clear... but the section on Io'vakas is. If you read page 41, the yuan-ti of the city originally worshipped the Sovereigns, but turned to the direct worship of the draconic pantheon, and it was this blasphemy that resulted in the destruction of their city. The ruins of Io'vakas remain today as a reminder of the folly of those gone before.

Ah, yes. There it is as plain as day on page 41. :embarrass

So no, the nondragons of Io'lokar do not worship the dragonic pantheon - or at least, if they do, they keep such worship VERY well hidden.

That's reasonable.

The Rite of Rebirth might be performed by a lightkeeper dragon dedicated to Bahamut, but the dragonborn themselves would be expected to dedicate themselves to Dol Arrah and Siberys.

I think that's fair, but I think for my own campaign I might allow for the reverence of Bahamut by these nondragon warriors of the Light of Siberys as some untouchable and unattainable ideal but not as an icon of direct worship.

One other restriction might be that the Rite of Rebirth would be applicable only to the 3.5 core/dragonmarked races.

#17

rauric

Aug 01, 2009 19:01:25

I like Assy as just being a real powerful devil. Simple as that. The Planes needs some BBEGs besides the Daelkyr and Quori.

I am cool with Lloth being an Overlord though. That just seems to fit.

#18

bobiago

Aug 02, 2009 13:32:19

Keith, around the time of the release of Dragons of Eberron, we spoke about how v3.5 dragonborn fit into the setting, possibly as warriors for the Light of Siberys.

Recently, I've been exercising these thoughts further with ideas of the citizens of Io'Lokar being worshippers of the draconic prophecy, and potentially desiring to join the Light of Siberys, undergoing to Rite of Rebirth, which isn't a far reach according to the section of Nondragons in the Light of Siberys on page 35. However, I wonder if the nondragons of Io'Lokar worship the draconic pantheon. The section on Io'Lokar seems to be silent about this.

To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon?

#19

nthdegree256

Aug 02, 2009 14:30:39

Canonically, yes. They may have dragon heads and breath weapons and even wings on occasion, but they're still diminutive little short-lived humanoids.

#20

Hellcow

Aug 02, 2009 17:17:06

To be clear, are we saying it is considered blasphemy for the Dragonborn to worship the Draconic Pantheon?

NthDegree has it right: by canon, that is what we are saying. The doctrine of Thir is that the Sovereigns ARE gods - the lowest tier of god, perhaps, but they are gods tasked with watching over the lower races. Despite being dragon-like humanoids, the dragonborn are not dragons. A dragonborn in the Light of Siberys would surely know the name of Bahamut, and be expected to show due respect to his priests and his sign. But he shouldn't direct his prayers to Bahamut. If he's a cleric, he shouldn't invoke Bahamut; he should call upon Dol Arrah, the Sovereign who governs the same sphere. According to DoE:

The dragons guard their faith as if it were a precious jewel. Some students of draconic lore claim that, behind their disdain for the prayers of lesser creatures, another rationale exists. The dragons are actually afraid that if the lesser creatures turned to the worship of the true deities, they might be judged worthy of ascension . . . ultimately stealing the dragons’ sole claim to the heavens.

This leaves a variety of options. You could decide that the Draconic pantheon doesn't actually exist; there's no concrete evidence that it does. If you LIKE the Draconic pantheon, you can ignore canon and say that the dragonborn are allowed to worship them. Alternately, you could have the dragonborn paladin who has been personally called by Bahamut and who is thus EXACTLY what the dragons are described as being afraid of - a lesser creature stealing the favor of their private gods. This would anger them, but if he truly has been chosen by Bahamut, do they dare to strike at him directly?

But by canon, dragonborn receive no special dispensation. They are expected to worship the Sovereigns, who again, ARE divine beings under the doctrine of Thir and possess dominion over the world. They are certainly gods fit for any little dragonborn. It's simply that the Draconic pantheon stands in the shadows behind them.

#21

bobiago

Aug 02, 2009 23:46:55

Thanks Keith, I'm totally coming around to your handling of the Draconic Pantheon. Your posts in this thread have convinced me that it adds much more than it confuses, especially because the PC races are proscribed from worshipping them. What I was clarifying was that Dragonborn are included in that proscription, which it appears they are. I'm completely on board with canon now. Where's my cheese plate?

#22

Sarlax

Aug 03, 2009 2:54:21

On the original topic:

I like retaining as much of the existing flavor as is reasonable for injected elements, if only to prevent too much reworking and to preserve good mechanical options.

While I have never quite liked Asmodeus as D&D Lucifer (an angel rebelling against the gods shouldn't be evil unless all gods are good), I recognize it's a part of the core mythology. I certainly don't want him to be an actual god, though, as that undermines some of the concepts of the divine in the game.

Working with the "rogue angel" idea: I like Asmodeus being tied to the Schism that split the Sovereigns and the Dark Six. The faiths seem to have once been one, but split with the growing divide between civilization and the wild. Even in 998, the faithful seem to pray to both sets of gods. Followers of the Host still offer occasional prayers to the Dark Six, if only to appease their wrath.

I can see Asmodeus as a servant of the entire pantheon who experiences a crisis of faith when the pantheon on splits. Now he can no longer simply serve "the gods" but feels forced to select a side. He might also be the cause.

Another idea: given how remote the gods are in Eberron, I prefer the position that even the angels don't know they exist, but have faith just like mortals. Asmodeus might have experienced something that challenged his faith, leading him to conclude that since the gods' existence cannot be proven, they do not exist, and that the only divinity is in the angels themselves and that he, the most powerful among them, is the only true god.

Another: All angels used to serve all the gods, but at the time of the schism, the different angels split and began to serve specific deities. Asmodeus took this as heresy, and created (or claimed) Baator as a place to punish the heretical angels. In his mind, Asmodeus serves the gods by punishing those whom he sees as failing to recognize the equal divinity of them all. He sends his devils (actually angels who joined him initially, or victims of his "justice" now promoted) out to capture angels who don't share his vision.

***

Lolth is a trickier god. It's easy to say she's a rajah, but that makes me feel like we're uniting too many disparate Eberron elements (Eladrin are from Thelanis, captured by giants in Xen'drik, bred into elves and drow, freed by consequences of the quori invasion, etc.). It is simple, though, to say that the drow simply dug too deep into Khyber, found a rajah prison, and started worshipping Lolth that way.

I'm intrigued with the possibility of tying her back to the Eladrin, though. I like the idea that eladrin are fey, in the sense of being something like fairy tale creatures, and that Thelanis is something like a realm of stories. Perhaps long ago, when they lived in that realm, the eladrin served various fey nobles, each of whom held domain over different kind of stories. Lolth could be a Lady of Monsters, a fey queen who has domain over tales of frightening things.

When the eladrin were captured, enslaved, and bred by the giants, the story of Lolth persisted for some who eventually became a drow line. When the elves begin their rebellion, some drow emulate the stories from Lolth's domain. They terrorize the giants at night, poison them, lay traps for them. In this way, they hope for the giants to tell monster stories of their own - stories of small creatures they scurry in the night, trap them in webs of jungle vine, and bite them with poison. In this way, Lolth doesn't start as the Spider Queen. Rather, she is the Queen of the Drow, who are her Spiders, terrorizing the enemies of their race.

#23

Madfox11

Aug 03, 2009 6:12:24

Makes you wonder how dragons would react to PCs with epic destinies like "demigod"* and "avatar of ...". Would they deny the fact that mere mortal is clearly on its path to ascension? Would they try to stop it? Or would they assume the mortal is indeed just a mortal avatar created by the sovereign to experience mortal life once again (which in itself would disrupt the rather haughty and arrogant idea that only dragons are worthy, since why else would that deity take the form of a lesser creature)? I find this rather interesting speculations. It would give the dragons some interesting role once an Eberron campaign reaches epic level. It certainly gives it an additional cool layer of complexity compared to the core world ;)

* In fact, at first we considered not allowing the epic destiny since it does not really fit Eberron setting at a first glance. After all, the Sovereigns are remote and distant. It is not clear they truely exist. If you follow the Draconic theology though, you can most definitely take this epic destinty to become the next sovereign, although that would definitely cause a stir amongst the dragons.

#24

Alas

Aug 03, 2009 7:43:11

If you follow the Draconic theology though, you can most definitely take this epic destinty to become the next sovereign, although that would definitely cause a stir amongst the dragons.

I'm not sure which the dragons would take worse-- the idea that a human(oid) could become a Sovereign, or that one could become something completely new.

#25

jedi123

Aug 03, 2009 9:47:22

Another idea: given how remote the gods are in Eberron, I prefer the position that even the angels don't know they exist, but have faith just like mortals. Asmodeus might have experienced something that challenged his faith, leading him to conclude that since the gods' existence cannot be proven, they do not exist, and that the only divinity is in the angels themselves and that he, the most powerful among them, is the only true god.

Lolth is a trickier god. It's easy to say she's a rajah, but that makes me feel like we're uniting too many disparate Eberron elements (Eladrin are from Thelanis, captured by giants in Xen'drik, bred into elves and drow, freed by consequences of the quori invasion, etc.). It is simple, though, to say that the drow simply dug too deep into Khyber, found a rajah prison, and started worshipping Lolth that way.

I'm intrigued with the possibility of tying her back to the Eladrin, though. I like the idea that eladrin are fey, in the sense of being something like fairy tale creatures, and that Thelanis is something like a realm of stories. Perhaps long ago, when they lived in that realm, the eladrin served various fey nobles, each of whom held domain over different kind of stories. Lolth could be a Lady of Monsters, a fey queen who has domain over tales of frightening things.

When the eladrin were captured, enslaved, and bred by the giants, the story of Lolth persisted for some who eventually became a drow line. When the elves begin their rebellion, some drow emulate the stories from Lolth's domain. They terrorize the giants at night, poison them, lay traps for them. In this way, they hope for the giants to tell monster stories of their own - stories of small creatures they scurry in the night, trap them in webs of jungle vine, and bite them with poison. In this way, Lolth doesn't start as the Spider Queen. Rather, she is the Queen of the Drow, who are her Spiders, terrorizing the enemies of their race.

I like the quoted idea for Asmodeus the best.

My main problem with tying Loth to the Drow and spiders is thus: in Eberron Drow are connected to scorpions not spiders. I would be okay with a single sect of Drow (on Xen'drik, possibly somewhere else) who were corrupted by the Rajah Lolth taking to spiders, but the main Drow still are connected to scorpions. Interesting side note, anyone have idea for the reason drow are attached to scorpions? In the reading I've done I have found nothing.

#26

Madfox11

Aug 03, 2009 10:11:05

IMy main problem with tying Loth to the Drow and spiders is thus: in Eberron Drow are connected to scorpions not spiders. I would be okay with a single sect of Drow (on Xen'drik, possibly somewhere else) who were corrupted by the Rajah Lolth taking to spiders, but the main Drow still are connected to scorpions. Interesting side note, anyone have idea for the reason drow are attached to scorpions? In the reading I've done I have found nothing.

Aren't there three types of main drow: scorpion, fire and darkness? The ECG actually does not mention which of those three types are the most common.

#27

jedi123

Aug 03, 2009 10:53:17

Aren't there three types of main drow: scorpion, fire and darkness? The ECG actually does not mention which of those three types are the most common.

Still no spiders. I'm still waiting to get my ECG, so if that's new there that would explain why I don't remember it.

#28

AvonRekaes

Aug 03, 2009 11:48:08

The vulkoori drow are the most common, I think. They're the culture most encoutnered by NPCs.

The vulkoori, or "scorpion drow", are the tribal savages that live in the jungles and decaying giant ruins. They are tied to scorpions because as a culture they commonly venerate animal spirits, which are theorized to be another version of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six.
The most popular among these animal spirits is Vulkoor, the Scorpion, who is said to be analogous to The Mockery. The way the drow fought against the giants followed a lot of The Mockery's teachings and tactics. Deception, poison, terror-tactics, and such, so they venerate him as a savior type figure.
Though you'll find tribes that ONLY worship Vulkoor, there are others that venerate their own versions of The Sovereigns and Six along with him.

As for the other types: Sulaatar (Fire) drow are more or less a specific drow tribe that remained loyal to the giants, fire giants specifically. They live in the ruins of this one fire giant culture, so they're not as widespread as the tribal drow who came from all over the giant empire. I think the only instance of Sulaatar drow being encountered cannonically by other NPCs is when the gnomes stole their elemental binding techniques, and even then it was only implied.

The Umbragen (Darkenss) drow are also one specific tribe or tight collection of tribes of drow that went underground to escape the giants. Only they went too deep and ended up being targetted by a roaming daelkyr's forces. I don't think Umbragen have EVER been encountered in cannon outside of specific adventures featuring them.

#29

jedi123

Aug 04, 2009 10:54:12

The vulkoori drow are the most common, I think. They're the culture most encoutnered by NPCs.

The vulkoori, or "scorpion drow", are the tribal savages that live in the jungles and decaying giant ruins. They are tied to scorpions because as a culture they commonly venerate animal spirits, which are theorized to be another version of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six.
The most popular among these animal spirits is Vulkoor, the Scorpion, who is said to be analogous to The Mockery. The way the drow fought against the giants followed a lot of The Mockery's teachings and tactics. Deception, poison, terror-tactics, and such, so they venerate him as a savior type figure.
Though you'll find tribes that ONLY worship Vulkoor, there are others that venerate their own versions of The Sovereigns and Six along with him.

As for the other types: Sulaatar (Fire) drow are more or less a specific drow tribe that remained loyal to the giants, fire giants specifically. They live in the ruins of this one fire giant culture, so they're not as widespread as the tribal drow who came from all over the giant empire. I think the only instance of Sulaatar drow being encountered cannonically by other NPCs is when the gnomes stole their elemental binding techniques, and even then it was only implied.

The Umbragen (Darkenss) drow are also one specific tribe or tight collection of tribes of drow that went underground to escape the giants. Only they went too deep and ended up being targetted by a roaming daelkyr's forces. I don't think Umbragen have EVER been encountered in cannon outside of specific adventures featuring them.

Thank you that is quite helpful.

#30

AvonRekaes

Aug 04, 2009 11:25:35

No problem! :D

If you want to know more about the vulkoori and sulaatar (I know I'm spelling that wrong, I just know it) drow, you should read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy. The second book, the Gates of Night, involve them fairly prominently.

#31

jedi123

Aug 04, 2009 11:34:32

No problem! :D

If you want to know more about the vulkoori and sulaatar (I know I'm spelling that wrong, I just know it) drow, you should read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy. The second book, the Gates of Night, involve them fairly prominently.

May very well do that if I can find them. I just finished Queen of stone and am about to read Storm Dragon.