As I was thinking about him today, I got the inspiration for Rikath-his name-to persuade the Loli-Pope to join his side. Both are fairly kind leaders of organizations with good goals, but have taken some pretty morally grey actions. For Rikath, it's because he ordered them, for Jaela, she really can't order people around, being half their size.
For thematic reasons, I want to examine the problem of having a child for a ruler-frankly, they're not prepared for the job, and it's stupid to expect them to be. I want to show just how much psychological strain she's been under, so that when Rikath comes along and offers to take some of the responsibility away, she's all too happy to accept.
Plus, when the PCs fight her, that gives me an excuse to bust the Ominous Latin Choir out.
Of course, Jaela is good before her slide into the dark side-given the moral ambiguity I'm trying to aim for, she probably still will be-so I want to show her as a hero when the campaign begins, but also her gradual descent into sympathetic villainy.
So how would you turn Jaela into an antagonist in a realistic, understandable way?
Jaela isn't the actual ruler of Thrane, when you get down to it. She's the spiritual figurehead, but the Council of Cardinals really makes all the political decisions (Check Religion DC 20 on page 102 of the ECG, and page 247 of the ECG). The people love Jaela, and she's one of the reasons why they trust the church, but she doesn't control it.
Beyond that, again, canonwise, she's NOT a little girl. She's got a Wisdom of 20 and a Charisma of 21. She's a conduit to the Voice of the Silver Flame, incarnate in the flesh of a little girl. You can certainly play her as an 11-year old placed under impossible stress; but the concept is that she truly is a channel the light of the Flame, and as such, possesses wisdom and mental composure one would never expect from one so young. Now, with that said, you can take this in another way, which is to make her seem inhuman and disturbing. So on the one hand you could go with the little girl who can't handle the stress; on the other, you can go with the "That's not a little girl in any meaningful sense of the word... and are we SURE she's communing with the Silver Flame and not the Shadow In The Flame?"
Again, this may not be relevant for what you're trying to do. I'm just sayin'.
Oh. Uh...Hi, Mr. Baker.
Well, although I said she was going to be a villain, not that she's going to turn evil.
A little more morally ambiguous, but not more so than Mr. Good-Aligned Tarkanan.
It's compounded by the fact that Rikath isn't a cruel-or even that much of a mean-person. He's bitter and angry, certainly, but that truly is a result of nurture rather than nature-he was raised from childhood to fight in a hopeless war against what was essentially a living weapon. Violence and war are the only political tools he understands.
The entire reason for his actions are that he's tired of the constant cycle of violence that characterizes Eberron. Of course, the tragedy is that he's a product of that cycle, and even if he succeeds, he's going to have to die to make sure the new peace lives for more than a couple decades.
In Jaela, he sees the potential for a descendant of his culture (he was born in Sarlona during the height of the Dhakaani empire-he's an archlich) to live in a better world then they did.
And as for the Evil Cat Person In The Flame-Rikath's actually a bit older than many of the Lords of Dust, so he knows perfectly well of Bel Shalor's continued existence. He also hates rakashasas with a passion, so...no dice.
Sorry. I meant to say "into an antagonist".
* Jaela personally
* The unified force of the church, so Jaela working with the cardinals to direct its power
* Thrane - at which point you don't have to have an antagonistic Jaela if you have an antagonistic coiuncil of cardinals.
Essentially, are you wanting the story to focus on the corruption and fall of Jaela (which lends to option one) or the use of Thrane/Church forces in an adversarial role?
And as for the Evil Cat Person In The Flame-Rikath's actually a bit older than many of the Lords of Dust, so he knows perfectly well of Bel Shalor's continued existence.
I'm actually a little puzzled by this statement. Is this something you're changing from canon, or am I just not understanding the idea behind it (do you simply mean "the current reincarnated forms of many of the Lords of Dust", for example)? As it stands, the Lords of Dust are literally the oldest things on Eberron - quoting the first sentence in their entry in the ECG, "remnants of a power that ruled the world before humanity existed"... and "most of the Lords of Dust have personal memories of the glorious days of the Age of Demons." Per the history table, the Age of Demons ended a hundred thousand years ago, while the earliest human civilizations measure their age in thousands of years. Katashka the Gatekeeper crafted the first dracoliches in the ancient war; some fifty thousand years ago the Qabalrin elves did their first work with vampires and liches, still long before humans mastered language in Sarlona.
It's really irrelevant to your story; even if there was a compelling reason to hold to canon, nothing in canon says that you couldn't have had a mighty arch-lich in pre-Sundering Sarlona, and an arcane being of such age and power would certainly know about the Lords of Dust. I'm just puzzled by the statement that he'd OLDER than the Lords of Dust, when as immortals born in the first age of Eberron, they are pretty much as old as things get. This may be confusion based on the fact that Eberron's rakshasa are immortal while core rakshasa aren't - but Durastoran Wyrmbreaker fought dragons over a hundred thousand years ago. Oh, and just as another point of order - The Shadow in the Flame isn't actually a "cat person". The rakshasa are the most numerous servants of the overlords, but the overlords aren't just big rakshasa. Bel Shalor is "Huge elemental humanoid (demon)" - note that he doesn't have the rakshasa type.
But I shouldn't sidetrack you from your discussion - I'm just a horrible nitpicker. And it's an interesting topic, so I hope others will join in.
Thought that designation applied to all of them, sorry.
By "Lords of Dust" I mean "all the demons and rakashasas in them". Thought that designation applied to all of them, sorry.
As a broad term it does. My point is that in Eberron, both demons and rakshasa are immortal spirits that don't reproduce, but who cannot be destroyed. If a rakshasa is slain, its spirit reincarnates, but it retains the memories of its previous incarnation. So while you might technically be older than its current form, the rakshasa itself is still hundreds of thousands of years old. Hence, it's still hard for anything that was ever human to be older than a demon, because demons were pretty much the first sentient beings to exist on Eberron. Most members of the Lords of Dust serve the overlords because they have ALWAYS served the overlords; it's the nature of their existence. There are a few - Thelestes, Korliac of the Gray Flame - who hitched their wagon to it later on for reasons of their own (and the arch-lich could certainly have been around before Thelestes became a Lord of Dust)... but most of the Lords of Dust are, well, the remnants of a power from a time before humanity existed.
But again, this is wildly irrelevant to the original question and the story you're trying to create. I'm still curious which of the three goals you're trying to accomplish: if it's specifically drawing Jaela herself in as an antagonist for the sake of using her and exploring her character; the church; or the broader power of Thrane. Like I said, the trick I see with option one is that as Jaela wields limited temporal power. Unless she has the support of the cardinals she's actually as limited as an antagonist as she is as a champion; she is a charismatic figurehead and a wise spiritual advisor, but her ability to actually change the course of events in Thrane is more limited than she herself would like.
Do you want Jaela to do it, or do you want to have BS acting through Jaela do it? I suppose....I can see the whispers of BS corrupting Jaela, but that's a pretty gritty way to go about it....
But yeah, if the OP wants Jaela to mobilize Thrane's forces or something, his archlich would have to convince her that the war would ultimately serve the Flame's ends. That's the key in making Jaela an adversary without being evil. Whatever he does that the PCs oppose, she has to believe it's for the good of the church, and ultimately the world (because the church wants paradise on earth).
It's hard to give concrete advise without knowing more about the plot, though.
Having Jaela be corrupted by an Overlord is not morally ambiguous, because you have a clear connection to absolute, primal evil.
Certainly. My point is that Jaela isn't a normal person. She's an 11 year old with mental stats in the 20s and the one of the most powerful NPC divine casters in Khorvaire when she's in Flamekeep, because she HAS a clear connection to a force that is both good and evil. So my original point is that you CAN'T have Jaela without the fear that you have Bel Shalor as well. If you involve her, there's always the chance that you are involving him. Think of Jaela as a very powerful Jedi: She KNOWS the Dark Side is out there and has to always be alert.
With that said, the point is that Bel Shalor can't corrupt instantly and utterly. He's never gained any sort of concrete control over a Keeper (aside from Melysse Miron, who is HIS Keeper, and even her he doesn't control directly). It's that he inspires. Look to the lycanthropic purge. It was a good thing; it saved the lives of countless innocents in Aundair. But it also cost the lives of innocents, in part because Solan believed that lycanthropy destroyed the soul. Why did he believe that so passionately? Why did he feel that utter extermination was the only answer? It's quite possible that it was because Bel Shalor managed to plant the idea in his head. From that point forward, he was just doing what he believed was right. He wasn't CONTROLLED by a demon - he was just misguided, at grave cost to shifters and non-evil lycanthropes.
Jaela's in the same boat. She KNOWS the demon is sending whispers her way. It has a direct connection to her through her link to the Flame. So she has to watch her dreams and ideas with a VERY close eye, to pick out the ones that are alien influences or on the wrong path. It's surely a very hard life. She has great power, but it comes with a price. I was saying that you COULD make her feel alien if you wanted; but even if you don't, all it takes is one obsession slipping through, one idea that she thinks is her own and believes in.
But yeah, if the OP wants Jaela to mobilize Thrane's forces or something, his archlich would have to convince her that the war would ultimately serve the Flame's ends.
My point is simply that JAELA can't mobilize Thrane's forces on her own; that takes the council of cardinals. Essentially, if we're looking to mobilize Thrane's forces, we don't need Jaela at all; we need Krozen. We need Jaela if we want to stir up the common people, and for that matter followers of the Flame across Khorvaire. If Jaela were to announce tomorrow that shifters were demons, and passionately argue for their destruction, that wouldn't cause Thrane's armies to mobilize. But you might get lynch mobs in Thrane, Breland, and definitely in Aundair. So it's a question of what forces one wants to bring to bear - a Thranish army or a Brelish blacksmith who's a fervant follower of the Flame.
You COULD play her as a villain in an over the top Goa'uld I-am-possessed-by-evil way if you wanted. That's not very realistic. Realistically, the issue is that fear of corruption is a very, VERY real thing for her. She IS inspired by the Flame. She's there to bring its light to people, to help them hear the voice of the Flame as she does. But she has to study every instinct and make sure it's the voice of the Flame and not the Shadow - and she could always slip up. Realistically, she's only human.
Yeah i didn't want to follow Keith's stuff with this ... but hey- gotta do this sometime.
Children are mean and scary. A Child with near epic levels of divine power; possibly possessed by an evil force which whispers on her shoulder- is even more so. Children of the Corn, the Twighlight Zone, and several other Horror Programs have all delved into this idea of "Child with Ultimate Power"- i think the Simpsons even played with it on a Haloween Episode.
However- i think the "Best Way" to have her turn into a realistic villain is to have her- even with her gigantic wisdom and charisma- become convinced that something needs to be "Fixed"- because the most stubborn thing on earth is a Child. If she's convinced that something isn't right, isn't fair' and isn't good- she can mobilize the faith of more than one nation against it; even if she doesn't have the long term vision to understand (or she ignores it) what this means for the world.
Example: Jaela decides that Arcane Magic has been corrupted or is a tool of evil- and begins a campaign against it. At first it can be seen as somewhat benevolent- children with magical talent are tutored by the church to become silver pyromancers: but slowly the seed of darkness grows. People with magical power that refuse to accept "Guidance" end up missing or dead- the Ashbound in the Eldeen Reaches ally with the Zealous Exteremists there and attack Arcanix; crashing it into the ground in a gigantic magical catastrophe. Then its not just "Arcane Spell Casters" but races with Arcane abilities- gnomes and eladrin; some half elves; dragonmarked scions- etc. Then its Artificers that need state approval. Finally its a demand that House Cannith leave the nation all together.
You take it from there.
However- i think the "Best Way" to have her turn into a realistic villain is to have her- even with her gigantic wisdom and charisma- become convinced that something needs to be "Fixed"...
Certainly. All I'm saying is that doesn't have to be simply because she's a child. It's how we ended up with the Lycanthropic Purge. And on my original pruge, it's exactly how the Shadow in the Flame works. It DOESN'T turn people into horrifying and obvious monsters. it tempts them with ideas that SEEM reasonable, that SEEM good. This is why the paladin of the Silver Flame has to watch for its influence - because it doesn't SEEM evil. It simply presents ideas and inspiration which, in the end, may cause more harm than good, or even both in equal amounts. Defending Aundair against lycanthropic destruction was unequivocably good; it was the ideas that extermination was the only answer, that the shifters can be corrupted, and so on that tainted this noble action. It's the Shadow in the Flame, the darkness that comes with the light. Not PURE evil... just the threat of twisting noble intent and good actions away from their intended goal.
Example: Jaela decides that Arcane Magic has been corrupted or is a tool of evil- and begins a campaign against it. At first it can be seen as somewhat benevolent- children with magical talent are tutored by the church to become silver pyromancers: but slowly the seed of darkness grows. People with magical power that refuse to accept "Guidance" end up missing or dead- the Ashbound in the Eldeen Reaches ally with the Zealous Exteremists there and attack Arcanix; crashing it into the ground in a gigantic magical catastrophe. Then its not just "Arcane Spell Casters" but races with Arcane abilities- gnomes and eladrin; some half elves; dragonmarked scions- etc. Then its Artificers that need state approval. Finally its a demand that House Cannith leave the nation all together.
Fun idea! I like the idea of Ashbound finding common ground with the Pure Flame.
However- i think the "Best Way" to have her turn into a realistic villain is to have her- even with her gigantic wisdom and charisma- become convinced that something needs to be "Fixed"...
Certainly. All I'm saying is that doesn't have to be simply because she's a child. It's how we ended up with the Lycanthropic Purge. And on my original pruge, it's exactly how the Shadow in the Flame works. It DOESN'T turn people into horrifying and obvious monsters. it tempts them with ideas that SEEM reasonable, that SEEM good. This is why the paladin of the Silver Flame has to watch for its influence - because it doesn't SEEM evil. It simply presents ideas and inspiration which, in the end, may cause more harm than good, or even both in equal amounts. Defending Aundair against lycanthropic destruction was unequivocably good; it was the ideas that extermination was the only answer, that the shifters can be corrupted, and so on that tainted this noble action. It's the Shadow in the Flame, the darkness that comes with the light. Not PURE evil... just the threat of twisting noble intent and good actions away from their intended goal.Example: Jaela decides that Arcane Magic has been corrupted or is a tool of evil- and begins a campaign against it. At first it can be seen as somewhat benevolent- children with magical talent are tutored by the church to become silver pyromancers: but slowly the seed of darkness grows. People with magical power that refuse to accept "Guidance" end up missing or dead- the Ashbound in the Eldeen Reaches ally with the Zealous Exteremists there and attack Arcanix; crashing it into the ground in a gigantic magical catastrophe. Then its not just "Arcane Spell Casters" but races with Arcane abilities- gnomes and eladrin; some half elves; dragonmarked scions- etc. Then its Artificers that need state approval. Finally its a demand that House Cannith leave the nation all together.
Fun idea! I like the idea of Ashbound finding common ground with the Pure Flame.
Ditto. And I find myself thinking this is a REALLY interesting campaign hook. I've been playing with ways to have someone in my upcoming campaign launch a crusade against arcane magic. I confess it had never once occurred to me to use the Church of the Silver Flame in that role. It's hard in Eberron, because arcane magic is the grease of society, but maybe that just makes it more interesting. It doesn't start as an attempt to exterminate arcanists, just to control arcane magic so it can't be misused - for the good of society, of course.
Ah yes, mine is an evil laugh.
It would appear so...
This thread has been deemed Heretical.
Of course, Jaela has a bargaining chip in the form of Rikath:
Krozen: "While I do respect the Keeper of the Flame's words, I must disagree. We simply cannot take this course of action-"
Rikath: "Did I mention I'm a 30th level wizard who can make your head explode by flipping you off?"
Krozen: "...On second thought, great idea! I'll start printing the orders!"
Yep. Completely IC for him to chose self-preservation over politics, particularly given that if Rikath wins, Thrane will come out ahead.
And in case you're wondering, yes, this is 4E, so the PCs will eventually meet Rikath on slightly uneven ground.
About the LoDs: I didn't know the rakashasas couldn't breed. Huh.
About the LoDs: I didn't know the rakashasas couldn't breed. Huh.
In Eberron they are immortal (though that doesn't mean they get the immortal type in 4E). The nature of immortals in Eberron - whether angels, quori, or rakshasas - is that their numbers remain constant. It's conservation of energy. When an immortal entity is destroyed, it eventually reforms. Depending on the type of creature and it's power level, it may or may not return with the memories of its former incarnation. Thus, you have Durastoran Wyrmbreaker, a rakshasa and one of the Lords of Dust. Odds are good he's been killed a few times in his existence, but he has personal memories of the war against the dragons in the Age of Demons. Meanwhile, the weakest rakshasa are reborn when killed but don't retain memories - so Rikath is certainly "older" than them, though their spiritual essence has been around forever.
The basic way to deal with immortals is to bind them, hence the whole purpose of the Silver Flame (which it's worth remembering is the force holding ALL the overlords at bay; Bel Shalor's simply the one whose release-and-return inspired the modern Church of the Silver Flame). However, if you look to the article "Eternal Evil" back in Paizo's run of Dragon, it's suggested that there may be ways to delay the return of a particular spirit if it's destroyed in a particular manner; knowledge of the Prophecy may reveal these keys. So you can't destroy Durastoran with physical force, but if the right person kills him at the right time with the right thing, it may take him a year or a decade to be reborn instead of a few days.
Archlich.
He's partially made of radiant energy too.
Part of the reason he isn't as cold and inhuman as other undead, in fact-his internal organs are still in functioning order, just...preserved.
Unless "Turn Deathless" is a spell granted by the Flame, he could lounge about it in 3.5 too.
As for Jaela being an antagonist, it's politics, primarily-she wants Khovaire to remain peaceful, and Rikath wants the same thing. It just so happens that long years of cynicism have turned Rikath into an extremist.
Also, thank you Mr. Baker-after reading your comments, I realize that Bel Shalor egging Jaela on doesn't detract from her opposing the PCs-he didn't come up with Rikath's philosophy of "Peace through superior firepower", but he's certainly cheerleading it.
Krozen: "While I do respect the Keeper of the Flame's words, I must disagree. We simply cannot take this course of action-"
Rikath: "Did I mention I'm a 30th level wizard who can make your head explode by flipping you off?"
Krozen: "...On second thought, great idea! I'll start printing the orders!"
Yep. Completely IC for him to chose self-preservation over politics, particularly given that if Rikath wins, Thrane will come out ahead.
Of course, while it's perfectly IC for Krozen to choose self-preservation, it's equally in character for him to absolutely hate it and to immediately start looking for a way to undermine Rikath. He'd never do it openly - he doesn't have anywhere near the level of personal power to challenge a 30th level archlich - but that's the point of Krozen. He's not as powerful as Jaela when it comes to actual character level power, but he's clever, charismatic, and has a vast amount of non-combat influence, including organizations like the Argentum; this is a case where you have an NPC commanding forces that may be more powerful than he is on the battlefield, because that's how real life works. He'll look for any tool that could solve the situation. Which could very well lead to Jaela being the antagonist (if she embraces Rikath's agenda) and Krozen being their secret ally. Which is, of course, the kind of shades of gray situation that Eberron is all about.
I'll commit that to memory.
What might work better is to have SF agents persuing the same goal as the PCs, but for different reasons. Since Jaela is aware of Bel Shalor, she may encourage church members to take a mission or quest to reduce Bel's influence. So in that sense, you have her indirectly as an opponent and force those hard decisions at the same time.
Am I detecting HERESY in this thread? Let's check...
It would appear so...
This thread has been deemed Heretical.
I love that. Completely. The heresy meter, should it be brought out, always detects heresy. The key is to avoid it being needed, else you will be illuminated. Absolutely awesome.
